Es Geloybte Aretz Continuation Thread
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Sorry im stupid what happened to frankfurt?
Germany only has 2 real cities? So is germany less urbanised can you go into more why german cities are not a thing i assumed places like the rhur cities, breslau, and the South like otl would have big cities.
Btw another question due to thd austro-prussian war prussia annexed alot of german states directly into prussia, have these places been prussianised? Have they assimilated into prussian identity is what im saying, have the hanovarians, nassau, etc become prussian?
Also learned even though the hanavorian monarchy even though gone was still a political issue, thats why Wilhelm daughter marrying into them was seen as mending. Has something similar happened hear? Have they been given new lands? A eastern European monarchy? Or they still landless?
Occupied and absorbed by Prussia in 1866; her mayor Karl Konstanz Viktor Fellner was driven to suicide by La Terreur Prussienne.
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I can't quite see that. German economics don't really allow for that kind of centralisation (yes, I know that is counterintuitive, but US capitalism really allows for vast geographic concentrations of power and money that entrenched interests, political decisionmaking processes and geography make impossible elsewhere). Germany will have a powerful and influential computing industry, but it will not have a or the leading global cluster. For one thing, it will have more disparate industrial centres leading research in various directions. There is never anything like the massive investment in California's aerospace industry, never the 'place we invent the future'. Instead, there are software and hardware companies growing up in and around industrial and scientific centres. And there are - this is important - state-operated monopoly players with powerful stakes in the game.
Secondly, there is not the internet. There are various nationally based modes of computer telecommunication. On the surface, since software is infinitely motile, it looks like a seamless whole to most users. But in fact, you need translation programmes to open a website based in France from Germany. That means programming is often a national industry, and there is no 'google-equivalent' reach to be had. German computer companies dominate the German sphere and sell many products abroad - especially in application and systems software, they often outcompete local champions in open markets like the US or China. But they aren't global giants.
Third, the Silicon Valley culture doesn't 'click' with German values. Many of the most influentual and innovative German tech geniuses worked for the Reichspost, AEG, Siemens, the Wehrtechnisches Amt or a variety of universities and research institutes. They made what their peers considered stellar careers ending up earning the equivalent of high six-figure salaries and amassing prizes and honours. Very few of them started companies, and those that did rarely indulged in expensive headhunting. Some mould-breakers started businesses and became successful - Konrad Zuse is the go-to example here. But this was always seen as a failure of the sytem: his genius should have been recognised, he was forced to strike out on his ow because it was not.
see Stendhal's post: the city fathers were made to see the error of their ways fighting on the wrong side in 1866 and gratefully accepted the forgiveness and suzerainty of the Prussian crown. Or words to that effect.
The 19th century was an unkind time for free cities in Germany. The three surviving ones understand very well that they owe their continued existence to the stability, the power and the continued acceptance of the imperial superstructure.
Germany only has two cities of global rank. It has plenty of cities, though the very fact that it does also means it lacks many large cities. There are as of 1980 only six German cities exceeding a million inhabitants: Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Frankfurt, Dresden and Cologne. The population centres of the Rhine and Ruhr, the upper Elbe valley, Silesia and central Bavaria are comprised of discrete urban centres, often closer together than the average American city's suburbs.
Hamburg is not the only other city in the Empire -far from it. But it is the only city other than Berlin that people throughout the world have an image of, an idea of what it might look like, what kind of identity it may have. There are very few global cities, and even in a more multipolar world it is not that common for a country to have more than one. Think of Japan: It is a country full of significant industrial cities, but if you were to ask the average non-Japanese person to name more than one, they might struggle (and Osaka and Yokohama really are so closely interwoven with Tokyo that they don't really count). In late 19th century Britain, there was London, Liverpool, and maybe Manchester that people outside had an idea of. France is still Paris to most foreigners. Germany has Berlin - the imperial centre, the striving, wilful, terribly organised warren of millions of workers, administrators, soldiers, researchers and technicians that 'make Germany happen' - and it has Hamburg - the old-school, maritime, globalised, sinful, chaotic, money-minded and vaguely dangerous place where anything can be found for sale. It's not really like that, but it is what people imagine. Very few people outside of the Reich have a similarly clear cut image even of Munich, let alone Breslau, Essen or Lepizig.
The short answer is 'no'. the longer answer is Fuck NO!
Which is not to say they have not become resigned to being Prussian subjects. But they cling to their regional identities with a fierce pride that even the war barely mitigated. Perversely, it even served to strengthen it. Though technically part of the Prussian military, soldiers from Cologne, Hanover or Frankfurt fought their battles and won their victories for Germany and the emperor they loved, not the king whose subjects they legally were. German identity is uncontroversial and hugely unifying. Prussian identity is scratchy and awkward. People resign themselves to it, but they rarely ever love it.
Not really, no. It was mooted - Finland or a unified Baltic Grand Duchy - but in the end political considerations made it impossible. The Welf still feel themselves the victims of a monstrous injustice, and the Hohenzollern made amends too little, too late.
It might actually underscore your point about outsiders knowing cities in foreign lands but a small correction: Osaka is next to Kyoto and pretty far from Tokyo. So you could count it together with Kyoto but its very clearly separate from Tokyo.
I would think that Munich would have a pretty similar history to OTL well known as a important cultural center (mostly people mixing everything Bavaria is know for together with Munich), relative poor until rather later, but by modern time the Bavarian focus on medium size companies over large size companies, offer Bavaria a edge in innovation and Munich grow in international importance, as one of the major center of German innovation. It’s pretty much what we saw in OTL, and while a non-communist Dresden could compete on that field (also having a lot medium sized companies), I think Munich would have a edge over Dresden.
This is a really interesting alternative path for the internet to take. While I (and most people in tech) have never really thought that it could happen otherwise, there is something to be said about how the fact that almost every layer and component of the entire global computing industry and internet runs on at most 2 or 3 protocols or architectures is mostly a product of how almost all early tech research occurred within the American research (and at that, usually American defense industry research) sphere so that even researchers in other countries ultimately defaulted to the US standards. But I think it also shouldn't be overlooked that the unification of standards OTL also sprung from the fact that computing was at the same time an enterprise pursued globally, by researchers who needed to work together in international organizations like IETF, CERN, IEEE, etc., and as a result even pre-WWW, there was already a broad shift towards adopting the same IETF/IEEE standards by early computing pioneers. There are some exceptions, like Microsoft's OS architecture being substantially different from Unix, which Microsoft could get away with by dint of having market share to protect a different standard, even as everyone else was marching towards a Unix-based standard. Here, too, the dominance of the US in computing meant that Microsoft succeeding in capturing a large part of the US market meant they also inevitably captured a big part of the world market.
So I guess I'm curious as to what precisely happens differently here that results in the evolution of different standards - whether it could be a norm of relatively less international cooperation between researchers (because national champion cartels is the norm for most countries in ATL) not leading to the push to international standards adoption, or just because the relatively level playing field between countries combined with economic protectionism meaning that every country can build its own Microsoft without being swallowed up by Germansoft or Americasoft, and every national version of Microsoft constructs its own separate set of standards for OS architecture and networking. If it's the second category, even the existence of an official unified international standard ATL might not be able to prevent the internet from fragmenting along national lines, if consumers largely prefer software produced by their national champions to the software produced to match the international standard (seems likely, if national champion cartels are the norm for most economies). Based on the TL so far, I guess it's probably the second which ended up occurring.
I just dunno how stable that situation is without active intervention to keep national software communities from merging together - at some point, I feel like it would become the norm to bundle translation software with personal computers so that Germans who aren't computing professionals could access the French network if they wanted to, and then at that point, seems like convergence would end up happening anyhow. If nothing else, scientists, researchers, diplomats, businesspeople, anyone who needs to communicate internationally regularly would probably be sufficient to jump start a market for such translation software, the same way in the modern era, they're the most prolific consumers of cell phone roaming. Then once the translation software exists, why not distribute it to everyone?
But the fact that Silicon Valley culture doesn't click with German values probably at least partially answers the last question. If it's considered extremely unusual for a tech genius to found a startup instead of joining the big institutions, then then there might well not be any incentive to produce and distribute translation software widely, because the big institutions see no interest in making it easier for people from Germany to access the French network or the US network - they might get the wrong idea and start buying French software or US software instead after all. As a result, protocol translation software becomes a kind of obscure feature, like cell phone roaming, that only people who travel a lot use, like diplomats, business people, and internationally famous scientists. In theory, it exists, but you need to pay through the nose for it, and so, most people just don't buy it.
Another thing I'm thinking is that for true parallel national standards to emerge, it's probably also the case that most major countries develop large computing industries at the same time. The reason for this is that if it were otherwise, the temptation to catch up to the industry leaders via simply copying their tech and their standards is extraordinarily tempting, and that, of course, is also a major driver towards convergence of standards.
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Deleted member 94708
The rest of this was very enlightening; Germany ITTL seems to be a very densely-populated Ohio, Indiana, or Iowa, with dozens of closely-spaced mid-sized cities. That's not entirely out of line with its demographic geography IOTL, but the urban conglomerations surrounding OTL Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, and Cologne are much larger than you're envisioning for TTL, I suppose?
Anyway, my original point was going to be that Osaka is 2-3 hours from Tokyo by high-speed train, nearly a third of the way down Honshu's spine. That isn't to say that foreigners know it, but it's not "part of Tokyo" like Chiba, Yokohama, or Saitama are.
I thought it was more a megacity, with Hamburg and Munich feeling just more distinct?
Not massively larger, but yes, they are bigger and their administrative structure is also more integrated (though Berlin still has Potsdam and Hamburg Altona as 'independent and separate cities'). The other thing that is somewhat different from many other countries is that ITTL Germany (especially Prussia) is very good at integrating urban clusters. It's called städtische Großraumplanung, it was systematically developed for the Ruhr area when the king-emperor decided he'd rather not have a deep red city that rivaled Berlin in population and it is now practised all over the country. Basically, it means that notionally separate cities integrate their urban planning departments. It gives them more power in negotiating with the state and imperial governments for funds and projects, and it means that living in these cities actually feels like you are living in one. You can actually take the S-Bahn anywhere between Duisburg, Essen, Gelsenkirchen and Bochum on a single fare structure. the network is fully integrated. Frankfurt, Mainz, Wiesbaden and Offenbach even manage this across state lines. Hamburg and Altona, despite perpetual rivalries, share their (jointly owned) utilities provider which also covers outlying towns like Wedel, Pinneberg, Ahrensburg and Buxtehude. Schools cooperate, and planning decisions pool resources (e.g. hospital capacity is calculated that way). It's a lot of work to preserve traditional structures, most people don't understand how much, but it saves money and is typical for the 'swan' principle of German policy: Serenely gliding on the surface, frantic paddling underneath.
I was more thinking of cultural identity, but good point. It is definitely farther away.
It's not really a megacity. There's not enough central gravity. More - do you know the Dutch concept of 'randstad'? An area where many separate cities' hinterlands intersect. Gravity actually makes a reasonably good explanation. It's a situation where Germany is not less urban for having few big cities, but too urban to have them. The country is full of small cities all of which have their own 'gravity well'. in a system packed with small planets and planetoids, there's no room for emerging giants. It is no coincidence (IOTL and ITTL) that the few truly big cities all emerged in liminal situations where they could exert their pull on largely rural areas (Berlin in Brandenburg, Hamburg at the boundary of Holstein and Mecklenburg, Munich downstream from the alpine foothills and Cologne and the Ruhr area next to the Eifel and Westfalen). The reason that Frankfurt is not a 'Millionenstadt' (IOTL) is not that it lacks the economic potential - the reason is that Mainz, Wiesbaden, Offenbach, Würzburg, Darmstadt and Mannheim are so close.
The preeminence of Hamburg and Munich is not just about population figures, though (once you factor in the 'metropolitan area', both clock in at around three million people ITTL depending on how you count). It's about cultural clout. These are the cities that are recognised as having a separate historical identity, cities that tourists may want to go to (or consciously avoid, in the case of Hamburg). Consider Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and San Antonio, Texas. The two cities are roughly equal in size, but if you mentioned one to an averagely educated person anywhere in the Western world, you'd get associations. Liberty Bell. The Streets of Philadelphia. That movie with the HIV positive guy. The other likely draws a blank.
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its obviously the powerhouse of ULM that is the banking heartland of mitteleuropa.
#GetUlmed
I think rather the Frankfurt, Hamburg might have the role as an actual, famous city.
Got a question does germany have any other minorities other than poles? From vicky 2 hfm mod there are west slaves (have no idea who they are), how are these other minorities doing?
Also how are german colonial armies doing, the askaris will they be prussians of africa, and what is the situation of the german pacific territory Samoa and Qindao?
Also how are german colonial armies doing, the askaris will they be prussians of africa, and what is the situation of the german pacific territory Samoa and Qindao?
In Germany the metropolis, there are Danes and French and Sorbs.
Sorbs are treated like Germans IIRC, but I'm not sure. I think the others are marginalized at first then slowly let up on in the next decades.
Deleted member 94708
So basically, they're doing exactly what a typical American metropolitan region (especially in the Northeast and Upper Midwest) should be doing when it comes to urban planning, transportation, transit, and utilities management.
How poorly older American cities deal with these things is largely down to how fragmented they are, in terms of governing units.
I mean, even culturally... Osaka is at least as distinct from Tokyo as Munich is from Berlin or Marseilles is from Paris.
I dunno, maybe my familiarity with East Asia is throwing me, but I think a far better example would be South Korea. How many people recognize the name Busan, let alone Daegu or Incheon? Yet they all have over two million people.
Incheon and Busan are both famous from the Korean war, right?
Daegu, though, I have not remembered.
There is no one banking capital. London is the world's bourse, so it is of course also central to Mitteleuropa, especially since it most internationally traded commodities are denominated in Sterling. Paris is also significant, but few German compamnies are willing to take that risk since both Paris and London have weaponised FDI. Amsterdam remains an important connex between the Mark zone and the currencies on the gold standard. Inside Germany, Berlin is home to the biggest banking houses, but Frankfurt and Dresden are also important. Hamburg has a major commodities and futures exchange. And of course...
Well, it's huge. A cultural metropolis, a banking hub, and industrial powerhouse, and unjustly overlooked for Berlin - in many ways, Vienna is the more modern city. But it never quite shakes off the stigma of second best, of 'of the past'.
Germany has Polish, Danish and French-speaking minorities and none are treated very well, though it gets better over time. The "West Slavs" may be a reference to Kashubians (today considered a dialect of Polish, but then widely defined as its own language) and Sorbs. All of these groups suffer legal disadvabntages and discrimination, but ITTL Germany being what it is, they enjoy protections of the law and become more established over time.
immigration also produces new minorities. Poles from the Kingdom come west for jobs, and so do Jews from Poland and Galicia, Romanians, Bulgarians, Croats and Hungarians, but not in as large numbers. Later on, Anatolian Turks form a significant immigrant community, as do Togolese, Tanzanians and Cameroonians. The Chinese community clusters in port cities and is never as numerous as its high media visibility suggests. By the end of the century, the biggest communities are Turks, Poles, Croats and 'blacks', the latter not defined by a common language or culture, but by skin colour.
Colonial armies are a fiscal embarrassment and will be run on a shoestring budget. Askaris cost a fortune - almost as much as German troops, man for man - and are gradually phased out. Yes, that makes the colonies vulnerable, but the German government never had any illusions about effectively defending them anyway. After the bloody business of consolidation, Germany maintains just enough of a force to keep a lid on things.
That includes Samoa, with a native police force officered by expat Chinese, and New Guinea with its native auxiliaries. Qingdao is the exception, maintaining a large naval garrison and Chinese police force at considerable expense. It was always 'not like the others'.
Pretty much this, yes.