Em2 adoption

Deleted member 1487

I'm going to keep adding stuff here, so bear with me...

Here are some accounts, albeit second-hand. Though they are the same AAR comments as in that DTIC presentation that you clearly dismissed before even reading it.
How is a civilian marksmanship competition video proof of combat performance? Again seems like more advertising when the gun that is doing the talking in the video and the spokesman for the competition is one of the developers of the round. Hardly impartial.
This year the Army loaded one shooter, Rob Harbison—one of the developers of the M855A1 EPR and regular competitor at the High Power Championships—with the new cartridge. The Army reports, “Throughout the competition, Harbison had several noteworthy performances, including firing a perfect 200 points in the Coast Guard Trophy Match, which is 20 shots fired from the sitting position at 200 yards. He also finished 17th overall in that match (of 385 competitors), finishing in the top five percent. Also of note Harbison scored a perfect 100 on the final string of ten shots during the Air Force Cup Trophy Match, fired at 600 yards from the prone position. That is 10 shots in a row within the 12-inch, 10-point ring at 600 yards with combat ammunition.”

Again, great in marksmanship competitions in ideal conditions, doesn't tell us that much about combat performance in the field.

The M855A1 EPR may be green, and reports are still pretty thin, but it very well could be the ammo the Army was asking for all along. It is more effective all around, with improved penetration through Kevlar, mild steel, concrete, and vehicle components like doors and auto glass and even helicopters bodies, to name a few, and better accuracy, higher velocities, less wind sensitivity and more precision complementing its superior terminal results.

Right, it could very well be all that is claimed, but in the article they just have one warrant officers word of mouth about what he claims he saw.

Chief Warrant Officer (CW2) Daigle of the 101st ABN had the following comments to say about the new cartridge:
The link is broken, so no way to actually see what the source was or had to say outside of what is claimed in the blog post.

There are three criticisms against the EPR of note. First is that it is not really up to the task at penetrating ceramic plate armor. Neither was M855, and the Army does have M995 armor-piercing ammo for that exact reason. The second is that at the velocities and pressures the enhanced round is operating at, it will wear out barrels quickly. And finally, it costs more than lead. It’s not a particularly expensive cartridge, but the M855 is cheaper to manufacture.

Again, everything I'm finding is that it is an improvement on the green tip 556, which is wonderful; greater having a better performing round in the hands of soldiers in the field. Still the issue of whether it is good enough is not actually addressed. Better than the Green Tip might not be enough. The barrel life issue though is a potential problem. Having overheated weapons or ones that are losing accuracy at demanded combat ranges is a problem if the ammo is too hot.
 
EDITED-- oh, wait, you claim a broken link. They sure look like they're in the article text to me. They even have bullets.
CW2 Daigle said:
  • After being issued the round, testing it on ranges and finally taking it into combat, not a single negative review has followed
  • Soldiers rave about it—its “stopping power” is amazing say most soldiers
  • I have spoken to TF Bastogne snipers that say they have killed enemy combatants at 700m with this new round
  • I have personally hit targets on known distance ranges at 600m
  • There is no question that this round has increased accuracy at greater distances and much improved through and through issues

But as I said, they were the same combat anecdotes as in the DTIC slides. You could find them.

Look, I have made my case. You have made no case whatsoever other than nay-saying. But I'll see if I can find more for you. Hang on...
 
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Deleted member 1487

Yeah, yeah. Trying to put burden of proof on me, again.

Also, moving the goalposts. Gelatin data is, well, data. So I have presented data, where you have presented none. No, it isn't anecdotes from veterans, which seems to be what you want. Well, look at the ones I posted and are apparently ignoring. You can try to present those slides as marketing data from the company, but you can't get past the fact that the presenter was LTC Jeff Woods, who was involved in the round's development. It was an Army presentation, from DTIC.

I posted data. You just want to dismiss it. Don't talk to me about gall, brother. ;) From the guy who has presented no data, that's chutzpah...

But as I said, hang on, I'll find you more...
How it that moving goal posts? I never agreed that gel data was sufficient in the first place! Green Tip was adopted on gel data after all, same with the 556 in general.
The burden of proof isn't on me because I never claimed the 556 was 100% sufficient; YOU claimed the new 556 is. I'm looking for combat reports about the performance in the field and if more vets than not think it is sufficient for their needs. After all the complaints about green tip that provoked the search for the new brown tip ammo.

It ain't gall or chutzpah to demand you actually back up your claim that the new 556 was perfectly sufficient and corrected all the problems with the insufficient green tip ammo.
And you know, expecting the guy who is staking his reputation on the new ammo and giving the military a powerpoint without data about how great it is isn't an impartial source about it's performance. I'm sure the designer of green tip 556 did exactly the same. The pdf was a presentation to the army by an ammo company tester. Again not like there hasn't been a history of procurement issues in the military:
https://www.publicintegrity.org/2009/04/01/2906/fraud-cases-fell-while-pentagon-contracts-surged

EDITED-- oh, wait, you claim a broken link. They sure look like they're in the article text to me. They even have bullets.


But as I said, they were the same combat anecdotes as in the DTIC slides. You could find them.
You missed the point, the bullet point claims were there, the sourced link was broken so no way to tell anything about the person or claims from the source.
 
It is fascinating seeing all these arguments about wound effectiveness and role mixes from my area of knowledge which is 19th century black powder rifles and muskets. Every time the calibre went down the press was full of complaints about the 'latest' not being as effective as the 'previous'. Also every time the rate of fire went up the compliant arises that the soldiers will run out of ammunition as they will fire it all away. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.........

What is revealing is that the driver was accuracy not power. Get hit by any bullet from a 0.685" musket ball down to 9.3mm Mauser and you will need more than a sticking plaster and a cuddle to feel better. Every change raised medical complaints that the wounds were more horrifying than the old ones. I except the Snider in that it was a hollow point by accident not design.

The driver to accuracy was initially the general issue of rifles but then the institutional desire for accuracy ( matched by the popular sporting rifles of the day) was to obtain a flatter trajectory to lengthen the dangerous area in front of the troops. i.e. they would be able to shoot further with minimum changes in elevation of their sights. The arcing trajectory of heavy ball or bullets (and the terms were interchangeable hence modern 'ball' ammunition) made accurate range estimation vital to fire at significant distances. Often omitted from praise of the Turkish defence at Plevna was the meticulous attention the Turks made to plotting the ranges from their defences which allowed them to maximise their modern rifles from over 2,000 yards with the Peabody Martinis down to 200 yards when the switch was made to Winchesters.

The fabled end of 19th century 6.5mm smokeless rounds (e.g. Carcano, Swedish/Norwegian Mauser, Arisaka, Dutch/Romanian etc.) were not chosen for their wound effectiveness nor lighter weight or range but simply to get a flatter trajectory thus making the rifles easier to use accurately by the soldiers of the day. If your minimum sight setting went out to 300 or 400 metres most actions would need no elevation adjustment at all. Compare this to the HEIC percussion musket. That rear sight went from a fine sight in the notch at 50 yards via a full sight in the notch at 100 and beyond that in line with the ears for 140 yards. After which your company is creating a large unaimed beaten zone.

Weight of ammunition was an issue in the early days but later improvements made the differences smaller steps with each change. The Pattern 1851 'Minie' rifle was soundly and rightly criticised for the greater weight of the conoidal ball compared to the previous musket round ball so the soldiers had to carry fewer rounds. The standard 60 rounds carried on the person of a musket armed soldier would make you grunt as you lifted it up as an ill balanced load on one hip.

From study of period comments I can assure you that not one rifle entered British service without a whirlwind of press charges that it was a complete disaster. I especially include the famous Pattern 1853 rifle musket and the Martini Henry for which the press pages of the day and questions in Parliament casting the most viperous articles and letters against their introduction yet both are considered excellent battle rifles of the day.

I only mention all of these to show that all the comments made in this thread are a feeble repeat of the same cycle of more than 100 years ago.
 

Deleted member 1487

Also one of your earlier sources that I didn't see probably due to an edit:
https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...ng-the-army-s-m855a1-standard-ball-cartridge/
The M855A1 was an improvement, but not up to the claims of the army
When U.S. Army shooters twice fired public demonstrations of the new round, they did not employ standard 1:7-inch twist M16A2s or M4s, but accurized, match-grade, stainless-barreled rifles from the Army Marksmanship Unit (AMU). I contacted the AMU and learned that these rifles did not have standard-issue 1:7-inch barrels, but most likely 1:8-inch twist, which probably accounts for their “match-like” accuracy.

The downside of the new propellant formulation is, unfortunately, a commensurate increase in chamber pressure, which eventually will affect a rifle’s performance.

For gas port pressure, the M855A1 generates 50 percent higher pressure (23,767 p.s.i.) on the Special Ops 11.5-inch M4 barrel, compared to the 16,067 p.s.i. with the M16A2’s 20-inch barrel. That has been shown to cause port erosion, which boosts the automatic-fire rate, increasing the likelihood of jams. In the 2011 tests of new Army carbine prototypes, the barrels experienced “accelerated bolt wear” from firing the M855A1, because of higher chamber pressure and increased bore temperatures. A Special Operations Command test saw cracks appear on locking lugs and bolts at the cam pin holes on average at 6,000 rounds, but with as few as 3,000 rounds of “intense” full-automatic firing. The solution may be to find a means to count the number of rounds a rifle has fired.

Accuracy was not an issue until well into the cartridge’s final development. Despite America’s military forces being seven years into war, a 2008 PowerPoint briefing listed the M855A1’s first consideration as “Environmental Compliance,” while “Accuracy” merely followed. And then, when the new M855A1’s accuracy specifications were published, they were the same as the old M855 it replaced-a “standard deviation of 6.8 inches at 600 yards”-meaning at least half the bullets must impact within 6.8 inches of the point-of-aim. That was quite at odds with, “match-like accuracy.”

A civilian Army Marksmanship Unit (AMU) shooter demonstrated the M855A1’s accuracy at the NRA’s 2012 Camp Perry National Matches. He did not fire a standard M4 or M16A2 with a 1:7-inch twist barrel, however, but instead shot a match-grade rifle with a stainless barrel and a more accurate 1:8-inch twist. Thus, the demonstration proved nothing. Likewise, another Army demonstration pitted the old M855 fired by a standard M4 Carbine against the new M855A1 fired by an AMU match-grade rifle, and again, any results were skewed by different barrel-twist rates.

And then, when the new bullet’s ballistic gelatin tests were completed, the Army classified the results. “What’s so secret?” a firearm industry expert asked me. “It’s just ball ammunition.” One Army officer wrote that the classification was, “so the process does not lend itself to adoption by commercial entities.” However, a Picatinny Arsenal representative told me it was classified, “to preserve our technological advantages over our potential adversaries.

Performance assertions were skewed, too. While developers hailed the new bullet as “vastly better” at penetrating steel than the 7.62 mm, M80 ball round, this was an apples-to-oranges comparison. The M855A1 has a steel penetrator-it should penetrate better than a 7.62 mm ball round, which contains a lead-alloy core. Similarly, it was misleading for the Army Research Laboratory to have tested the round, “against 24 layers of Kevlar fabric out to 1,000 meters.” That thickness of Kevlar is only rated to protect its wearers against handgun ammunition-not rifle ammunition-and especially not a rifle round with a steel penetrator. Such a claim was both irrelevant and disingenuous.
All of this puts the DTIC powerpoints into the category of advertising and hype rather than unvarnished truth.

In the end the article does say it is a significant improvement over the Green Tip, which does appear to be the case, but again the question is does gel performance equal actually in field combat performance and does the increased pressures and wear on weapons mean accuracy will be maintained, guns won't jam up, and performance stay consistent? You can always up the speed of a round, but that will come with consequences that either have to be compensated for or will cause problems.
 
How it that moving goal posts? I never agreed that gel data was sufficient in the first place! Green Tip was adopted on gel data after all, same with the 556 in general.
The burden of proof isn't on me because I never claimed the 556 was 100% sufficient; YOU claimed the new 556 is. I'm looking for combat reports about the performance in the field and if more vets than not think it is sufficient for their needs. After all the complaints about green tip that provoked the search for the new brown tip ammo.

It ain't gall or chutzpah to demand you actually back up your claim that the new 556 was perfectly sufficient and corrected all the problems with the insufficient green tip ammo.
And you know, expecting the guy who is staking his reputation on the new ammo and giving the military a powerpoint without data about how great it is isn't an impartial source about it's performance. I'm sure the designer of green tip 556 did exactly the same. The pdf was a presentation to the army by an ammo company tester. Again not like there hasn't been a history of procurement issues in the military:

The problem is that moving the goalposts is endless. You can always demand better data. First you wanted data. Then you wanted combat data. Next you'll want something else.

This is the data we have. And it all looks good. The world is imperfect, and sometimes we are forced to make conclusions based on less than perfect data. I never said "100% sufficient", because nothing is. My most effusive was saying it looked to be a "damned nice service rifle cartridge." I also said that the bitching about 5.56mm not having good wounding was BS especially with the M855A1 round. And it is, and I have provided data to that effect. You have the burden of proof now because you say it isn't, and can't provide any data to that effect.

So, again, show contrary data. Any contrary data. Anything. Something more than nay-saying and links about old fraud cases. I'll accept a poorly performing gelatin test- find one. The only negative data I've seen about the M855A1 was the accuracy testing where it shot 5MOA, which is admittedly horrible, but which was traced to a manufacturing error in that lot and corrected. Everything else shows 2MOA or less.

missed the point, the bullet point claims were there, the sourced link was broken so no way to tell anything about the person or claims from the source.

My bad- I see what you're saying. But, again, the same report is in the DTIC presentation.
 
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Wow. Ok, I admit that now I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to a wall and getting frustrated. But at least you're reading what I'm linking. Thank you.

Also one of your earlier sources that I didn't see probably due to an edit:
https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...ng-the-army-s-m855a1-standard-ball-cartridge/
The M855A1 was an improvement, but not up to the claims of the army


In the end the article does say it is a significant improvement over the Green Tip, which does appear to be the case, but again the question is does gel performance equal actually in field combat performance and does the increased pressures and wear on weapons mean accuracy will be maintained, guns won't jam up, and performance stay consistent? You can always up the speed of a round, but that will come with consequences that either have to be compensated for or will cause problems.

Well, I've seen no complaints or reports about such problems. Have you? Here is at least second-hand confirmation of that, although it's a preview of a book.

Also maybe a bit moot, since I was responding to your claims about poor wounding, and now we're off into other factors. But read back many, many posts and you'll see that I already talked about the tradeoff in maintenance and barrel life. And regarding wounding, the article you cite is effusive. "The results were impressive." etc.
 
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Deleted member 1487

The problem is that moving the goalposts is endless. You can always demand better data. First you wanted data. Then you wanted combat data. Next you'll want something else.

This is the data we have. And it all looks good. The world is imperfect, and sometimes we are forced to make conclusions based on less than perfect data. I never said "100% sufficient", because nothing is. I said that the bitching about 5.56mm not having good wounding was BS especially with the M855A1 round. And it is, and I have provided data to that effect. You have the burden of proof now because you say it isn't, and can't provide any data to that effect.

So, again, show contrary data. Any contrary data. Anything. Something more than nay-saying and links about old fraud cases. I'll accept a poorly performing gelatin test- find one. The only negative data I've seen about the M855A1 was the accuracy testing where it shot 5MOA, which is admittedly horrible, but which was traced to a manufacturing error in that lot and corrected. Everything else shows 1.6MOA or thereabouts..
The demand has always been for relevant data. DTIC advertising powerpoint presentations marketing the work of the development team to the army isn't fully accurate data about performance in the field. If you go back I'm sure you'll find much of the same touting the benefits if green tip 556, yet it didn't perform in the field.
You haven't actually provided data beyond a couple of gel shoots, the actual data is classified. All I'm saying is that the evidence is that the brown tip ammo is better than green tip, but that doesn't tell us that it makes the latest combat 556 ammo sufficient for the needs of combat soldiers in practice. That's all.

As to contrary info, other than the wound studies being classified so that data cannot be analyzed, I posted the comments about the ammo from the American shooter article that points out where the military claims were not necessarily backed up in their testing. They did find it was better than Green tip, but does Brown Tip stack up in the field? You've given some 2011 presentations, but this is 2017, where is the recent combat data? Again the burden of proof isn't on me, it is on you to back up the point that Brown Tip ammo is perfectly sufficient for military field needs. Better than Green Tip doesn't necessarily mean perfectly sufficient for field needs, especially if it comes with increased barrel wear and ejection issues.

My bad- I see what you're saying. But, again, the same report is in the DTIC presentation.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a549416.pdf
Yeah saw that section, claims attributed to one guy with no supporting evidence. That isn't really a combat report, that is anecdotal data attributed to one person, not cited from actually combat reports.
 
Ok. If every metric we can devise short of lining up 1000 Afghans and shooting them under laboratory conditions doesn't sway you to at least acknowledge that the M855A1 looks deadly, well, I'm not sure where to go from there. You sound like a grumpy old man, actually. "Well, better than green tip isn't saying much!" etc. ;)

And actually, no, you can't find a lot on performance during the adoption of green tip. Turns out it was rushed and ill-conceived, focusing too much on energy retention at long ranges, because they wanted it to feed SAWs with. Now, contrast this with all the testing on M855A1 over its 20 years of development...

As to contrary info, other than the wound studies being classified so that data cannot be analyzed, I posted the comments about the ammo from the American shooter article that points out where the military claims were not necessarily backed up in their testing.

Not sure what you mean by this, either. Can you be more specific? If it's about accuracy there are several other sources. If it's about increased maintenance needs, granted, as I have already said. Otherwise I don't see where "claims were not... backed up."
 
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Deleted member 1487

Wow. Ok, I admit that now I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to a wall and getting frustrated. But at least you're reading what I'm linking. Thank you..
Yeah turns out when you're not producing actual data to back up your claim that the latest ammo fixes all old military 556 ammo issues we go round and round in circles with you trying to offload the burden of proof on to me when I challenge the validity of your blogs and ammo developer advertising claims.

Well, I've seen no complaints or reports about such problems. Have you? That's my point.

Also maybe a bit moot, since I was responding to your claims about poor wounding, and now we're off into other factors. But read back many, many posts and you'll see that I already talked about the tradeoff in maintenance and barrel life. And regarding wounding, the article you cite is effusive. "The results were impressive." etc.
In your own sources, including the one that I cited, they said there were numerous proven issues with the Green Tip ammo, which helped lead to the development of the latest Brown Tip ammo. As to the article you originally cited and I then pulled quotes from, yes the gel studies were nice and better than the Green Tip. Question is how does it actually perform in the field and the issue is that the wound data studies done by the military are classified after they were done, which is cited in the article, with people wondering WHY it was classified at all. You haven't been able to find any combat report data about the ammo outside of the one powerpoint done by the ammo developer. I'm not saying they've made those publicly available, so it's not your fault that they aren't out there to cite, but then you CANNOT claim that field performance is sufficient, just that it is better in testing than Green Tip, which I've repeatedly agreed to. Testing data is that it is significantly better than Green Tip 556 in nearly all ways but wear/weapon wear and perhaps ejection. That comes with it's own issues of course, but combat potential seems to be worthwhile, so I'm all for it's introduction. I'd just like to see the actual current 2017 combat results before saying categorically that Brown Tip 556 military ammo sufficiently does the job combat riflemen need it to do.
 
Wow, a LOT of chutzpah there about not presenting any data! Bravo! ;)

And, again, the presentation was by DTIC...
 

Deleted member 1487

Ok. If every metric we can devise short of lining up 1000 Afghans and shooting them under laboratory conditions doesn't sway you to at least acknowledge that the M855A1 looks deadly, well, I'm not sure where to go from there. You sound like a grumpy old man, actually. "Well, better than green tip isn't saying much!" etc. ;)
You sound like someone that likes to claim more than they can prove and doesn't like to be called out on his BS. ;)
All in good fun, right?

Read my last post, I agree that Brown Tip is better than Green Tip, just not that Brown Tip is proveably sufficient for all American combat needs for it's role. I'm sure the studies that prove things one way or another exist in the pentagon that us civvies are not cleared to view, at least for several years. So its pointless to keep arguing something that is not proveable among civvies at this time. Shall we move on already?

Wow, a LOT of chutzpah there about not presenting any data! Bravo! ;)

And, again, the presentation was by DTIC...
Trying to save face still? Let's just move on, we're not solving anything by debating the validity of one 2011 powerpoint from an ammo developer.
 
Oh, wow... THAT'S funny!

But, yeah, we're like two posts behind each other. Thanks for admitting that much- superiority to green tip, "worthwhile", etc. But, how can you make such a concession without a 200-page report on actual combat performance??? :) Sounds like your standards are slipping- you're accepting gel data, now. Slippery slope, there...

But, damn, you sound like some who hates it when people demand data from you instead of just accepting his pronouncements as holy writ, and who ignores any data that dispute his position. ;)

I'd kind of like to read this, but it's behind a pay wall.

Let's just move on, we're not solving anything by debating the validity of one 2011 powerpoint from an ammo developer.

Ah, and you're also the kind of guy who just absolutely has to get the last word. ;)

Well, if I come across that 200-page combat report I'll PM you. Otherwise, yes, I do agree that this discussion is now futile.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Yeah, we're like two posts behind each other. Thanks for admitting that much- superiority to green tip, "worthwhile", etc. But, how can you make such a concession without a 200-page report on actual combat performance??? :) Sounds like your standards are slipping- you're accepting gel data, now. Slippery slope, there...
Buddy, data has to be provided by someone making a claim; sorry my standards are higher than yours. Actual data, not ammo developer powerpoints trying to sell their work to a procurement staff. Given that Green Tip was originally adopted on such testing data, but proven in sufficient in the field, the test data that was overstated in the DTIC powerpoint according to the American Rifleman article may well not prove to play out in the field. Perhaps it will, but we don't have access to that combat data yet. Personally I think we should have gone for larger rounds in the past, but at this point we're locked in to 556, so got to find a way to make that work. I hope Brown Tip 556 lives up to the testing data in the field.

But, damn, you sound like some who hates it when people demand data from you instead of just accepting your statements as holy writ. ;)

Ah, and you're also the kind of guy who just absolutely has to get the last word. ;).
Sounds like a nasty case of projection.
 

Deleted member 1487

Any chance you two can take your bickering somewhere else what does modern ammo have to do with the EM2 and its ammo.
We're done. The EM-2 discussion was pretty much over anyway as it was before we started.
 
Yeah, I PMed him to say the same. Your last post was 25 minutes before his.

Big hug, wiking... no hard feelings on my end. That was fun.

Oh, and I'm adding more links back in old posts, just for anyone who comes along to read all of this later. I'm not trying to snipe you.

EDIT--- I'm almost afraid to check into what the 7.62mm version of the EPR is like...
 
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marathag

Banned
But .243Win is very much a high-power round, not suitable for a general-issue service rifle. Well, unless you're trying to make a batter battle rifle rather than a better assault rifle, in which case why not?

Had a Springfield M1A in .243

That was sweet. Lot less recoil(about 50%) that 30-06 or 308, much flatter shooting.
 
An interesting point about Bolt/ Firing pin complexity.
Stripping down the Bolt on a Bren Gun, and remember the Taden was essentially a Bren modified for Belt-Firing, was a nightmare. And the Bren is considered to be one of the best LMG's ever constructed. Its reputation for reliability and effectiveness is noteworthy.
So much so that there were two levels of maintenance and cleaning, one done by the troops and one done by trained Armourers. A Bren's bolt had so many fiddly small parts that had to be reassembled exactly that it was beyond the ability the average soldier.

Just because a weapon has a part that is the metaphorical equivalent of a Rubik's Cube does not mean that it will not be effective or Soldier Proof.
 
An interesting Pod is that if the .276 Pedersen round had been adopted for the Garand rifle pre WW2 would we have seen an EM2 type rifle chambered in this round or would the British have developed their own bespoke round as they did in OTL?
 
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