Eisen, Blut und Fernhandel -German Unification in the 1860s

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Hi!
France got Savoy and Nizza like OTL and kept it. Losing the Romanic-Germanic War did not change it. Bismarck toyed with a return of them to Italy during the peace negotiations, but that was just used as a pressure measure and bait. Bismarck did not take it into consideration seriously.
Well, that's not good. Because, that means that the Italians do not trust their royal family, because if they give their ancestral home away, what else will they give away.
BTW giving Savoy to France was the reason for Garibaldi to march towards Rome and if he had been faster Italy would have become a Republic and would have demanded Savoy back. Also, most Savoyans did not want to be part of France. The whole referendum had been a farce.
 

Beer

Banned
Hello.
Thanks for the good wishes, I am now better.
Our conversation on Korea isn't dead yet, it's just...
Hi!

The ATL Situation is like this: As written before, the ATL 1884 Japan has -gotten more and stronger help to modernise
-taken in more German/Western ideas than OTL
-is part of the Zollverein, enabling them to get modern tech and ressources easier and cheaper, which means less pressure to secure raw materials fast
-has Germany, a Great Power, as close friend
-has seen with the Bentheim Islands/Hawaii how easy you can get less developed economies under control
-Germany is supporting the Japanese expansion plans, but ATM holds them back with advice to make sure Edo will be in the position to get their targets easier

Japan and to a lesser extend Germany will invest in Korea, make treaties, gaining some goodwill and then between 1895-1900 Korea will be taken by Japan. Rather bloodless, since the Korean economy by that time will be in German-Japanese hands and the Joseong government due to this as well.
Since the Ultra-Nationalists will not come into power (ATL Japan is politically more stable and feels more secure than OTL), the colonisation of Korea goes mainly along the lines of the rather successful "light-medium touch" colonisation of the 20s. Serious Korean attempts for independence begin only in the late 2oth century.

I base my TL on German, Japanese, Austrian, some French, British, American, Russian sources and further sources, if available, from nations playing a part. I stand by my extrapolation.
 

Beer

Banned
Well, that's not good. Because, that means that the Italians do not trust their royal family, because if they give their ancestral home away, what else will they give away.
BTW giving Savoy to France was the reason for Garibaldi to march towards Rome and if he had been faster Italy would have become a Republic and would have demanded Savoy back. Also, most Savoyans did not want to be part of France. The whole referendum had been a farce.
Hi!

I know, but the French kept their part of the bargain and if the royal family is so greedy for power, well...
Bismarck actually finds this animosity quite good after Italy sided with France, so he used Savoy for the peace negotiations, but did not seriously consider giving Savoy back.
 
When will the great war start? Before or after OTL WW1? And will it be mainly in europe or will japan contribute significantly?
 

Deimos

Banned
Too bad I missed the input of zeppelinair and democracy101. Knowing more about the intricacies of Asian politics would greatly help giving more perspectives to the TL. Hearing more about the struggles, (moral) shortcomings, provisional arrangements and general gnashing of teeth from either Germany or Japan about the day-to-day mess they have to deal with sounds really interesting.

BTW, do Japan and Germany share treaty ports in China?

Furthermore, how does Russia treat the situation in Asia where what they would probably rate a German client state is making trouble? Even if Japan is very careful they are a nuisance and a (small but due to their ally not insignificant) factor to be considered by the other Great Powers. So what do Russia, the USA, Britain and Austria think about Japan (France's opinion should be quite obvious and therefore I left it out) and Germany's meddling?
 

Beer

Banned
Hi!

@norlag, Deimos
I will answer your posts either later in the evening or tomorrow, since I have some other things to do first.

But i wanted to post the next part now before leaving. As always: Have fun and please comment!

Hofburg Vienna, Austria 1884

With the exception of some law specialists, the people in this conference room were among the most powerful in all of Austria. Emperor Franz Josef at the helm, the Princes Rainer and Maximilian, Count Gyula Andrassy, Ferenc Deak and these were only the most known of the 30.
The movers of the Empire were working on one of the biggest problems, the question of a new constitution. When Metternich's system imploded in the Revolution of 1848, the state structure of Austria became instable, but the internal and external situation led to several tries at constitution, like the Pillerdorfer, with a stint back into Neo-Absolutism.
The successes of the 1860s, in Mexico, during the Romanic-Germanic War and the win in the 1st Balkan War had carried Austria onward, running on an unofficial amalgam of the October Diploma and the February Patent.

This uncomfortable state of being had been going on for 20 years, but to everybody in the room it was clear that this could not go on much longer. With Europe settling down, old questions came to the forefront again.
Good advice was expensive, the opinions varied. Some even wanted to base the new constitution on the German one of 1864, but that died soon when it became clear that the varied Austrian mix of Reformers, Liberals, Reactionaries and Conservatives would never accept that. Not only because all sides wanted the most power for themselves, but the political image this would project.
In paragraph 1 of the German constitution the Declaration of Union by 28 states (today 37) was immortalised and ending with the words "... jetzt und immerdar." (Now and forever)
Taking the 1864 constitution as base, but cutting out the first paragraph would send a wrong political message, not cutting it out would mean asking for entrance by proxy.
Only taking several parts as baseline would work.

The greatest centrifugal power in Austria was the conflict between the supporters of the centralist power around the Emperor and the federalist regions. Now a colonial power stretching to another continent, the need for more federalism in Austria was obvious, but how? The central focus of the Kaiser was needed to give more glue to the multi-ethnic Empire.
It took 2 years of interval sessions to hammer out the Austrian constitution of 1886, which would itself form the base of the later 1940 constitution, mainly an upgrade, the actual one of the Austrian Empire.
The Kaiser stayed the central point of Austria, in a mix of Head of State and limited Head of
Government. The government with the Erste Minister (First Minister = PM) at it's head was both a council of advisors and executive, the First Minister holding the powers the Kaiser had "lost".
There was a two-chambered parliament, the Nationalrat (National council), elected by the voters and the Landesrat (State Council), filled by representatives from the 18 regions (today 15).
The Regionen (regions) finally got more competences, something even very loyal regions wanted. But these competences were more limited if compared with those of the German federal states. Still, this move by Vienna pacified a lot of the population and paved the way to other urgent reforms.
 
Interesting, So the Hasburg Hereditary lands move to federalism, and seems more based in royalism that ethnics(the only way to make it stable and avoid give some radicals ideas),umm how austria loss 3 regions? what happened there? something related with the 1940 constitution? why paragraph 1 was so problematic?(related the 3 los regions and 1940?) Which are the 18(now 15) Hasburg Regions?

Nice update, love seeing a strong Austria and how keep south central europe in peace with that, seeems Franz Joseph will not have such rough life so far(will sisi survive?)
 
No German or Japanese source I have hints that way.

We Germans might have relations with Japan for "just" 150+ years, but they were friendly from the start. Here is a rough translated excerpt from "Japan 151", an OTL tourist guide for Germans:
"Germany and Japan have relations for over 150 years. In all that time, except for one battle in WW1, there were no noteworthy conflicts. With no other nation worldwide Japan has such a close, friendly and positive relationship[...] Germans get great trust and respect in Japan. So for it to stay like this, please don´t be an axe in the Chrysanthemum Forest. (when you visit)"
That is OTL. ATL Germany did even more for Japan, right from the beginning. Do you see why it is highly likely that ATL Japan will follow German advice often? Especially under the better ATL circumstance?

I stand by my version.

I base my TL on German, Japanese, Austrian, some French, British, American, Russian sources and further sources, if available, from nations playing a part. I stand by my extrapolation.

I'm not sure why a brief excerpt from a tourist guide (which overly emphasizes positive points) has to do anything with thoroughly explaining deep-rooted historical issues.

In any case, have you read Korean and Chinese sources as well? Annexation/colonization involves systematically analyzing both the situation of the colonizer and the colonized (in addition to their viewpoints of each other), so it is very difficult to understand the greater picture by solely relying on the viewpoints of the colonizers. Additionally, sources depicting Korea during the 19th century are very scant (regardless of what language they are written in) not only because Westerners had very limited knowledge of the peninsula at the time, but also due to the fact that it is very difficult to decipher the corresponding Korean and Japanese politics as a result of rapid changes within a few decades.

Also, out of curiosity, what are the Japanese, British, and American sources, and have you relied on English translations of the Japanese ones?

I also have a difficult time understanding why Japan would choose not to interfere at all within the peninsula by 1884 ITTL if you specifically mentioned the diplomatic note incident and the "occupation" of Jeju Island as occurring ITTL. Specifically, similar interventions IOTL had directly led to major protests in Korea during the 1870s-80s, while Japan began to send troops to the peninsula by the 1880s in order to protect its interests in Korea while countering China. Additionally, despite Korea's proximity to China and Japan, Europe had remained disinterested in the peninsula for over three centuries for various geographical and economic reasons, meaning that neither Germany nor France would have been interested to "open up" Korea to trade with a relatively late PoD. Specifically, the French had sent warships to Korea in 1866 to "punish" it for executing missionaries, and voluntarily withdrew after minor defeats, indicating that they were much more concerned with events elsewhere within Europe, North America, Africa, and Asia. While the US did send ships to the peninsula in 1866 and 1871, they were also halfhearted, while the French refused to conduct a joint campaign with the US against Korea.

Diplomacy between Korea and Japan from 1868-75 IOTL seems to have been butterflied away ITTL, which doesn't make sense if the diplomatic note incident had occurred.

Hopefully this clarifies some things.
 

Beer

Banned
Hi!

@Nivek

The 18 regions of Austria in 1884 are the 15 regions of Cisleithania, the two Great Regions (Hungary and Croatia-Slavonia) of Transleithania plus Austrian Yucatan (Matamoros is part of Tyrol). Bosnia is not included, since at that time Austria just administrates it.
Telling exactly how Austria lost the 3 regions would be a big spoiler, so let me just tell you which regions were lost: Galicia-Bukowina (after an earlier reform one region), Croatia-Slavonia and Dalmatia.
Today Austria has 15 "modern" regions: Vorarlberg, Tirol, Lombardy, Venetia, Krain(Slovenia), Carinthia, Burgenland, Bohemia, Moravia, Salzburg, Wien, Hungary, Yucatan, Bengazi and Slovakia.

The paragraph 1: In the beginning the Austrian constitution conference thought about adopting and changing the German constitution of 1864. But § 1 of that constitution is the Declaration of Union. Either keeping it or cutting it out would have sent wrong political signals.

@norlag

The WW1 ATL starts earlier than OTL, but not massively earlier, still in the 1910s. While the most important battlefields lie in Europe, Asia, America and Africa have their share too.

@Deimos

I value both zeppelinair and Democracy101 input. They are the reason, while i have not written a chapter about it yet, that ATL 1884 Korea´s rather good internal situation is what I consider at the upper limit of probability.

I will write more chapters about East Asian politics over time and the reactions of the Great Powers concerning Japan´s first entrance on the "Big stage" will be in a coming chapter.
 

Beer

Banned
I'm not sure why a brief excerpt from a tourist guide (which overly emphasizes positive points) has to do anything with thoroughly explaining deep-rooted historical issues.
Hi!

The excerpt (Btw the whole book has chapters on Japan´s dark side too) was used just to underline the historically very good relations between Germany and Japan. I know that the relations Korea-Japan are "difficult" for various reasons, but the excerpt should show Germany in aggregate and I personally had very different experiences over time how Japan/Japanese react. And that Germany is more likely to influence a decision of Tokyo than Korea is. (No offence meant)

In any case...
I agree that there are very few sources on "old" Korea. I mostly use Dutch Koen de Ceuster´s and German Max von Brandt´s books on East Asia. Von Brandt was eye-witness of many events there in the late 19th century and his works on East Asia are among the best. He was one of the first Westerners to really study China, Korea and Japan.
As for Japanese sources: I use mainly German translations, some English, but I can read them in Japanese (with a lexicon for Kanji, I only know a couple of the most important ones), if there is no translation available. My spoken Japanese is better.

I also have a difficult time understanding why Japan would choose not to interfere at all within the peninsula by 1884 ITTL...
I think your problem comes from the fact that I do not write down every incident/event that happens in ATL. I simply lack the time for that. And who said that Japan does not act in Korea in 1884? They act by beginning to get the Korean economy under control.
Germany is only in as an ally of Japan, Korea is not massivly on the Radar in ATL Berlin as well.
 
Hi!

The excerpt (Btw the whole book has chapters on Japan´s dark side too) was used just to underline the historically very good relations between Germany and Japan. I know that the relations Korea-Japan are "difficult" for various reasons, but the excerpt should show Germany in aggregate and I personally had very different experiences over time how Japan/Japanese react. And that Germany is more likely to influence a decision of Tokyo than Korea is. (No offence meant)

Point taken.

I agree that there are very few sources on "old" Korea. I mostly use Dutch Koen de Ceuster´s and German Max von Brandt´s books on East Asia. Von Brandt was eye-witness of many events there in the late 19th century and his works on East Asia are among the best. He was one of the first Westerners to really study China, Korea and Japan.
As for Japanese sources: I use mainly German translations, some English, but I can read them in Japanese (with a lexicon for Kanji, I only know a couple of the most important ones), if there is no translation available. My spoken Japanese is better.

Well, this is part of the problem, as Von Brandt seems to have visited Korea in 1882-3, while I would assume that de Ceuster would have also visited after 1880 or so at the earliest, so they would have had very limited information on the relationship between Korea and Japan before then. I don't specifically have a problem with the events concerning Korea from 1874-5 ITTL, but they do indicate that Japan was much more aggressive than had been the case IOTL (meaning more direct interventions), which I will cover below.

I think your problem comes from the fact that I do not write down every incident/event that happens in ATL. I simply lack the time for that. And who said that Japan does not act in Korea in 1884? They act by beginning to get the Korean economy under control.
Germany is only in as an ally of Japan, Korea is not massivly on the Radar in ATL Berlin as well.

I realize that you're unable to cover your TL in more detail, but I'm just trying to point out that there were very complicated interactions between Japan and Korea between 1867 (beginning of Meiji's reign) and 1875, which involved a variety of both diplomatic and military means, and essentially set the tone for further relations between them until 1910. On the other hand, while European countries had continuously contacted both China and Japan for over three centuries (in varying degrees), none of them were ever interested in diplomatically contacting Korea over the same time period because it was economically inviable for trade (while military force after 1866 was extremely minimal). This continued to remain the case until Japan imposed the Ganghwa Treaty in 1876, which wouldn't have been significantly different ITTL as long as the PoD occurred in the mid-19th century.

To clarify, I was just very confused about what exactly was occurring within Korea ITTL at the time, given that Japan seems to have directly intervened by taking Jeju Island only a year after the diplomatic note incident. The Joseon Tongsinsa missions between Korea and Japan from 1607-1811 (frequent diplomatic missions had also occurred for centuries beforehand) were conducted in which Korea was assumed to be the "superior" entity, while Japan was assigned an "inferior" position, as Korea felt that it would be justified to punish Japan after the widespread devastation during the Imjin War. This ultimately meant that for over two centuries, the Japanese delegates were only permitted to stay in Busan, while the Korean ones were welcomed in Edo, indicating asymmetric relations, although there was a sharp break soon after 1811 due to domestic turmoil within Japan.

In other words, the conditions indicated within the diplomatic note (1868 IOTL, 1874 ITTL) breached diplomatic protocol because Japan had suddenly switched to a European-based system of relations without notifying the peninsula of the change, while Korea had continuously retained the East Asian system. This meant that bilateral negotiations between the two dragged on for around seven years, as neither side backed down from asserting itself as the "superior" entity. Specifically, Japan initially hesitated to use overt force because of the specific nature of prior relations between the two countries, while Korea delayed negotiations for three years due to the breaches from the Japanese side. After the deadlock was finally broken in 1875 by military means, however, the Joseon court quickly acquiesced to the Ganghwa Treaty, as it realized that the tide had shifted.

As a result, if Japan decides to forgo diplomacy entirely and skip directly to the use of military force within a year ITTL, it would also have directly intervened in the peninsula at a much larger scale than the situation IOTL. Hence why I had brought up prior Japanese historiographical perceptions, as well as direct military intervention within the peninsula.
 

Beer

Banned
there were very complicated interactions between Japan and Korea between 1867 (beginning of Meiji's reign) and 1875, which involved a variety of both diplomatic and military means, and essentially set the tone for further relations between them until 1910...
To clarify, I was just very confused about what exactly was occurring within Korea ITTL at the time, given that Japan seems to have directly intervened by taking Jeju Island only a year after the diplomatic note incident...
As a result, if Japan decides to forgo diplomacy entirely and skip directly to the use of military force within a year ITTL, it would also have directly intervened in the peninsula at a much larger scale than the situation IOTL. Hence why I had brought up prior Japanese historiographical perceptions, as well as direct military intervention within the peninsula.
Hi!

I think I see one of the "strife points". Let me explain it like this:
While Japan is modernising for roughly one and a half decade by the time of the ATL diplomatic note incident and the taking of Jeju-do, it is still growing into his new position and a bit unsure of the reched standing. The View of Edo/Tokio is much more focused on Europe than OTL, their economy step by step getting more aligned with mainly Germany´s, but other European economies by proxy too. Old foci still exist, but they lost some importance for a time.
When the incident happens, Germany is still building up more power projection capacities in East Asia and is in the midst of the ATL Kulturkampf, so cannot help all that much.
While later on Germany can help more, the time between ATL diplomatic note incident and the 1890s is best described as Japan testing the waters. This is the reason aggressive moves and restraint change position all the time. With Germany unable to help much if the situation escalates to include e.g. China, still insecure about how far Japan´s modernisation has come, Tokio decides on occupying Jeju-do instead of say Busan. While symbolic, it is remote enough to not stear up a lot of trouble politically and initially there is still the carrot that Korea can get the island back, if they pay their debts.
After Gapsin, it is the same two steps forward, one back. At that time Japan is more sure of it´s standing and the closest ally can do more, but with Bismarck´s Germany giving advice, Tokio is content with making Korea more ripe for taking for now, both awaiting the international reaction. 25 years of more intense cooperation/modernisation and membership in a different economic-cultural zone has impacted old priorities in Japan a lot more than OTL ever did.
 
The idea of a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" usually is a phrase to convey the fact that the individual is forced 1 step back, not spontaneously taking a step back in precaution. And with Japan clearly made a wild success, it is clear how much its new plans will expand - as with all other nations who had initial success. The Japanese gov't does not have the hindsight to realise that going too far would be disastrous.
Furthermore, since there has been no precedent for the ATL Japan-Germany alliance, it is hard for me to imagine how much 25 years between nations on almost opposite sides of the hemisphere can do for integration and influx of innovation. The idea of Japan focusing on Europe also seems quite far-fetched: does the ATL technology of communications and transport allow Japan to be integrated, as much as it may wish to be?
Ultimately, the idea of modernisation for Japan and becoming like the Western powers was not a goal by itself - it was not, so to speak, because Japan fell in love with Germany or Britain. The goal was, through modernisation and industrialisation, to become the strongest in Asia and assert its dominance.
It had succeeded in Jejudo, and it had succeeded in Gapsin. Why is it fearing that there will be failures if it tries more? That is like a flipped version of a gambler's fallacy.
 
Hi!

I think I see one of the "strife points". Let me explain it like this:
While Japan is modernising for roughly one and a half decade by the time of the ATL diplomatic note incident and the taking of Jeju-do, it is still growing into his new position and a bit unsure of the reched standing. The View of Edo/Tokio is much more focused on Europe than OTL, their economy step by step getting more aligned with mainly Germany´s, but other European economies by proxy too. Old foci still exist, but they lost some importance for a time.
When the incident happens, Germany is still building up more power projection capacities in East Asia and is in the midst of the ATL Kulturkampf, so cannot help all that much.
While later on Germany can help more, the time between ATL diplomatic note incident and the 1890s is best described as Japan testing the waters. This is the reason aggressive moves and restraint change position all the time. With Germany unable to help much if the situation escalates to include e.g. China, still insecure about how far Japan´s modernisation has come, Tokio decides on occupying Jeju-do instead of say Busan. While symbolic, it is remote enough to not stear up a lot of trouble politically and initially there is still the carrot that Korea can get the island back, if they pay their debts.
After Gapsin, it is the same two steps forward, one back. At that time Japan is more sure of it´s standing and the closest ally can do more, but with Bismarck´s Germany giving advice, Tokio is content with making Korea more ripe for taking for now, both awaiting the international reaction. 25 years of more intense cooperation/modernisation and membership in a different economic-cultural zone has impacted old priorities in Japan a lot more than OTL ever did.

I'm assuming that you meant "issues" when you said "strife points" (which is not something someone would say in English, although I don't know about German).

Anyway, my point is that there would have been no incentive for Japan to occupy/attack Jeju Island (which isn't exactly located "between" Korea and Japan, by the way) or any other location in Korea if it did not want to become militarily involved in the short run. There were plenty of diplomatic options in order for Japan to gradually expand its influence within Korea, some of which had been explored IOTL, not to mention that there were other methods to pressure Korea through economic means without resorting to direct force.

The mere act of seizing Jeju Island itself would have been a major faux pas for Japan because it would have directly violated Korea's national sovereignty (as stated earlier, Korea had considered itself to be "superior" to Japan prior to 1875-6), provoking a collective hostile response from both Korea and China, in which the latter may directly send a few thousand troops into the peninsula in order to "protect" its tributary. Additionally, the distance from Japan to Jeju would have been far enough for Japan to consider an alternative option, while Japanese involvement on the island would have caused the court to be apprehensive about direct attacks on the peninsula itself. As a result, the Korean court would have considered temporarily rejecting contacts with Japan altogether due to the major incident, as well as increasing militarization efforts for preparation of further hostilities.

Also, the riots within Busan in 1878 and the Imo Incident in 1882 would have still occurred in some form at least before the Gapsin Coup (which must occur in 1884 to still be called "Gapsin" for dating reasons) ITTL. Specifically, they broke out as a result of varying hostile reactions to increasing Japanese influences, which generally involved using implied military force to protect Japanese diplomats and traders (mostly within Busan), leading to major social disturbances among both the populace and soldiers involved.

In other words, Korea is going to diplomatically reject any and all Japanese efforts to reach out as long as the court in Edo/Tōkyō fails to utilize proper diplomatic procedure (from the Korean point of view, which still assumed Japan to be a "barbarian" entity). Joseon is also going to remain undeterred by any means of military force from Japan unless an area close to Hanseong (Seoul) or Busan is directly attacked, as it generally remained unaware of internal Japanese developments from 1954-75. This was specifically why Ganghwa Island was attacked IOTL after futile attempts to pressure Korea for years beforehand by sailing warships past Busan in full view of the inhabitants within the city.
 

Beer

Banned
The Japanese gov't does not have the hindsight to realise that going too far would be disastrous.
Furthermore, since there has been no precedent for the ATL Japan-Germany alliance,...
HI!
Please do not get it wrong, but you go into this discussion with too many absolutes. I understand fully why your view of Japan cannot be the same as mine, different bilateral history at work here, but deeming both ATL and OTL Japan unable of the slightest reflection and rational decisionmaking is too biased, sorry.
Equally there is a streak of "all or nothing" in how you take some of my clarifications, even if a gradual change is implied by them, like in the focusing on Europe part.
I do not know if an English translation of the book "Ferne Gefährten, 2011(= Far-away Companions) exists. The book was made by several historians, who got access to stuff not generally open to the public.
It would help clear up why my take on of the ATL developments is very plausible, because I have no desire to translate several chapters of it. And it shows how similar Germany and Japan are in several ways, despite the great distance. While there are some big differences, Germany shares more outlook with Japan than with some of our neighbours. And this is OTL.

Germany met Japan first both OTL and ATL when Japan was in a rare mode open and receptive to western ideas to save itself from becoming a colony. There was even a phase of "West is best" in Japan. OTL after some time most advisors were gone and Japan modernised further relatively alone. ATL there are not only more advisors (5-6 times) from near the start, but the Germans keep staying "in the neighbourhood" on Ezoland and the economic ties push this further. ATL Japan is stonger influenced by German/European ideas than OTL, but it also exports part of the culture earlier and more too. That these developments don´t come overnight, but take decades or sometimes over a century is just logical.
As goes for the focus part: A nation is far more looking to the guys buying the majority of your harvests and have given you better access to the world market. This is a snowball effect naturally.

I answer that tomorrow or Monday.
 

Beer

Banned
Anyway, my point is that there would have been no incentive for Japan to occupy/attack Jeju Island (which isn't exactly located "between" Korea and Japan, by the way) or any other location in Korea if it did not want to become militarily involved in the short run...
Hi!

I know Jeju-do sits "in the left corner", but taking the Island should show two things. No nation in this TL is perfect, all make sub-optimal choices or full mistakes too and the changes to OTL adding up.
ATL Japan´s government, while having many OTL faces in it, is not the same as OTL. As said in an earlier post, Japan is testing the waters how far it can go.
As the reason, they took the Korean dragging of the feet of the credits given to them for their modernisation. Tokio is rather sure that Japan is in the better position, but last doubts and advice convince the government to aim for something "less important". Busan would have been a better choice, but Jeju Island is still a logical one, even if it is a sub-optimal.

To keep the possibility of an international reaction small, Jeju-do is good. Beijing does not really care about that Island and Japan is quite open that the occupation of Jeju is to hasten the paying off of Koreas debts and that they would give back the Island when that was accomplished. (at least in theory)
It was highly unlikely, that while a hostile reaction form Hanseong and Beijing is a given, actual operations against Japanese-held Jeju would be ordered. Even if, at that point in time, as reasoned in Tokio, Japan has some modern ships unlike China.
 

Deimos

Banned
Another point to the Japan/Korea-discussion would be to question the factions of the Japanese government. As far as I remember the Tenno and the shogun were unhappily forced to do a compromise and they had to balance their supporters quite a bit.
Could making "2 steps forward, 1 step back" mean that someone (or some group) pushes through with the extravagant plans but the people actually running the show are later horrified by the mess they have achieved and are trying to make up for it? This is a time when the civilians still reigned and mattered in Japan and it seems plausible that there is still a conflict between the slowly westernising Japanese (which does not automatically translate to them being more rational) and the more traditional forces in the country.

I would also like to repeat my question concerning the image foreign nations have of Japan.
 
Beer: I'll apologize in advance for my long response below, as I'll quote some of the earlier updates (from almost half a year ago) about Korea as well to clarify what is going on.

Take your time when responding.

(I've omitted some of the details from the updates because it would be tedious to scroll through everything, but I've retained most of the important aspects.)

From the book "Ripples in the pond - Side effects in History", Gotland Förlag, 2009

Chapter 3 - Korea

. . .

Neither Germans nor Japanese could know or guess what would happen in Korea. The end of the Joseon Empire began in Shimonoseki 1864 . . . Paris intervened in 1866 for the persecuted Catholics in Korea, the government was loath to risk a repeat in East Asia.
Most military history experts agree that this "want to win" attitude was the reason France pushed on despite stingy losses on Ganghwa and in the taking of a fortified monastery on the way to Seoul. But the forces of French Admiral Roze were too weak for a march on the Korean capital. The Regent of Korea on the side wanted peace to stabilize the nation, which had seen a number of uprisings due to corruption and poverty.
It came to the face-saving treaty of Munsusansong in late 1866. France could sail home with prestige won, even if the actual French influence in Korea had been stifled, while the isolationist Joseon dynasty could keep the opening of Korea limited to some areas. The French-Korean Trade treaty, part of the peace negotiations, is seen today as a sort of, if unsuccessful "F... you" to the Germans in nearby Japan.

Unsuccessful because the French did not endear themselves with the attack on Korea and it was limited in scope, nothing more than a less harsh unequal treaty.
Still, this treaty set a precedent and within a few years several Great Powers and Japan secured trade agreements.
It was now that Regent Daewongun earned his major place in Korean history. The years between 1866-69 had made it clear to him that Korea had only a chance if some reforms and modernisations would be executed.
Even before 1866 Daewongun had initiated some reforms and begun to combat the rampant corruption . . . in 1873 King Gowong became the ruler of Korea, the reforms had begun to stabilize Korea economically and the extreme poverty of much of the population had eased a little bit. The life expectancy was still just in the mid-twenties for most of the population, but the Chungin, the middle class, became the hope of the rulers to modernise Korea far enough to withstand the foreigners. A modernisation program was started, but it derailed . . . Overconfidence and a return to corruption . . . led not only to a rising debt but to costly and often unsuccessful special projects.

. . .

The rising debt forced the Korean government to look for moneylenders. Japan convinced the Zollverein to put up capital, to make Korea dependent on them . . .

. . .

For Korea the problems, internal and external, began to start fully. The Regent´s anti-corruption course had stabilised and in conjunction with a small economic rise brought most Koreans to back the old system again, but King Gowong´s false handling of the situation kept the resistance in Korea alive. For now, most of Korea had closed ranks against the foreigners, but the returning corruption and the overly expensive, shaky modernisation were deep, unsolved problems.

(Nitpick: "Gojong" is only mentioned once while "Gowong" repeatedly appears elsewhere, as well as in the next relevant update. Please proofread.)

Hi! again!

ATL France, due to the TL circumstances, sent around 3 times the number OTL France did. But even that was just a regiment and a bit. It was more a punishment expedition than a real campaign, so France could see it as a real win.

According to the above, France sent around 1,800 troops (600 x3), who would have been outnumbered by at least 10,000 Koreans by more than 5:1. IOTL, the French remained trapped on Ganghwa Island for a month because they had extremely limited knowledge of the topography or currents, so any attempts to break out ultimately failed. The troops were also not particularly motivated because the main objective was to "punish" Korea for executing missionaries, as well as ensuring the safety of the remaining two within the peninsula. As a result, the troops were severely demoralized when an attack by more than 300 Korean sharpshooters with muskets led to around "36" French casualties, and withdrew altogether when they were informed that the two surviving missionaries had escaped to China, in addition to adverse weather conditions as winter began to set in.

For comparison, the United States sent its own expedition (albeit with 800 troops) in 1871 in retaliation for the General Sherman incident (1866), and scored a victory over ~500 Korean troops, which was reported to the Joseon court as a major defeat. However, the Heungseon Daewongun merely made preliminary preparations to flee the capital in order to continue military resistance from elsewhere if necessary, and firmly refused to negotiate with the Americans. As a result, the regent would literally have been the last person to arrange terms with the French (or the Americans), regardless of the circumstances, as it was imperative for him to take a hardline stance in order to retain his tenuous position.

It's also worth noting that it was not until 1876, three years after the regent was forced to retire, that Korea finally agreed to negotiate with Japan due to gunboat diplomacy.

Japan/Nippon

-map-

This map suggests that Japan still used military means to expand into the Ryukyus, Hokkaido, and the Kuril Islands, and would have still considered about militarily intervening in Taiwan, so the Japanese government would have to tread very carefully in order to avoid antagonizing China. These efforts alone would have tied up Japanese resources before 1875, so I'm not sure why Japan would have directly seized Jeju Island if it would have been well-aware of the potential repercussions, which I will cover in more detail below.

Recording from a lesson in the Audimax of the Franz-Ferdinand-University Wien 2012

"Distinction of Cultures - The industrial Take-off in East Asia"

. . .

Unlike the imperial government in Beijing, the regent in Hanseong learned the right lesson from the first real confrontation with Europeans . . .
Here now was one of the deciding differences between the two. For all the flaws, the Tokugawa Shogunate had made Japan united and internally stable. The Joseon dynasty on the other hand had several prolonged periods of massive corruption . . . Uprisings, rebellions were numerous and long-lasting . . .
For once, the Regent of Korea, under the impression of the French incursion and examples seen in Japan, pulled off a really good performance . . .
When Regent Daewongun gave over the staff . . . he had changed Korea in just 7 years. The nation had returned to a, if brittle, unity, the corruption lessened . . .

. . .

Gowong and his sycophants were too sure about the power of the old "Big Brother" China, when clear signs were present that Beijing had problems with the western nations.
In addition, the last independent government of Korea invested heavily in prestige projects to show the world East Asian, in special Korean, superiority. This was not only a hit and miss game, one of the biggest failures a flying boat with feathered wings, but thoroughly expensive.
Money was loaned from any source Hanseong could reach, even the old rival Japan. Soon the debt had risen to very high levels, but that was just the beginning . . .

In 1874, the Japanese government sent a diplomatic note to Korea . . .

Among the Kanji characters used where the ones for "imperial" and "Decree". Back then in Korea it was only the Chinese emperor who could use these characters in letters and the Korean government refused the note from Japan.
While even Beijing nudged Korea . . . Hanseong did not move, convinced that their modernisation would be enough to weather the storm.
Freshly elected Shogun Yoshinobu Tokugawa meanwhile recognised the chance the Korean stubbornness offered. Being sure of German support, in autumn 1875 a Japanese fleet landed on and occupied Jejudo, an Island between Japan and Korea. The explanation was easy: The Korean government purposely overreacted on a harmless note . . . in the light of Korean unreasonableness, the Imperial government of Japan occupied Jejudo . . . returned after Korea paid off her debts.

Most nations swallowed that explanation without trouble, the situation seemed clear. What only few nations knew, was that in the light of Korea´s ever more precarious finances paying off the debt to Edo would be long in the future, if ever. This was in essence a night and fog annexion . . .

Japan on the other side had taken the first step to become a classic Great Power with Korea now set in the sights.

(Technically, Gojong was enthroned in 1863, although he seized power in 1873 after the regent (his father) had been ousted. This distinction doesn't seem to be made here.)

Given the (entangled) developments above, I'm extremely confused as to why and how these series of events have occurred.

Specifically, the regent had taken an extremely firm stance against French and American incursions in order to consolidate his fragile position, while the treasury was depleted several times over in order to systematically reconstruct all of the 7,700 rooms of the Gyeongbok Palace from 1865-72 (seven years), which had been thoroughly destroyed and abandoned for over two centuries after the Imjin War (Japan) and the two Manchu invasions (Qing). These were the main reasons why the regent had been adamant in carrying out thorough purges of major political factions on the pretext of corruption, as his own political position was extremely unstable (he was eight generations removed from the main royal line). Additionally, his policies were more of a return to "traditional" norms (centralized rule), given that many of the "progressive" policies had been pioneered beforehand for centuries under various court factions in order to balance the monarch's undue influence, although factional conflicts became extremely detrimental to the populace over time.

In other words, even if France had somehow managed to "open up" Korea through gunboat diplomacy (which I would consider to have been virtually impossible), Gojong would not have approached either China or Japan for "loans" for other "major" projects even years after Gyeongbok Palace had been thoroughly rebuilt. If he had attempted to do so, however, it have been politically suicidal due to fierce opposition from the court, as Japan and the Qing's aggressions had caused the devastation of the main palace in the first place. The concept of "loans" would also have been extremely difficult to fit into the millennia-plus East Asian tributary system, as goods had been required to flow both ways.

Also, after butterflies have been taken into account, if Korea had been somehow been more open to European influences soon after 1866 or so, the Joseon court ITTL would also not have been as inflexible as IOTL during the "diplomatic note incident," as it would have more accurately gauged Japanese internal developments without the "hermit" policy.

As a result, Korea would have just been content with seeking advice from various Western, Chinese, and Japanese military advisors, as well as opening up trade links.

Hi!

I know Jeju-do sits "in the left corner", but taking the Island should show two things. No nation in this TL is perfect, all make sub-optimal choices or full mistakes too and the changes to OTL adding up.
ATL Japan´s government, while having many OTL faces in it, is not the same as OTL. As said in an earlier post, Japan is testing the waters how far it can go.
As the reason, they took the Korean dragging of the feet of the credits given to them for their modernisation. Tokio is rather sure that Japan is in the better position, but last doubts and advice convince the government to aim for something "less important". Busan would have been a better choice, but Jeju Island is still a logical one, even if it is a sub-optimal.

The "left corner" is particularly important because it opens up a potential route to attack China, in addition to the original one through the Ryukyus. Given that attacking the island would have been perfect for antagonizing both Korea and China, I don't see why Japan would have taken the risk without plans to intervene militarily within the peninsula.

To keep the possibility of an international reaction small, Jeju-do is good. Beijing does not really care about that Island and Japan is quite open that the occupation of Jeju is to hasten the paying off of Koreas debts and that they would give back the Island when that was accomplished. (at least in theory)
It was highly unlikely, that while a hostile reaction form Hanseong and Beijing is a given, actual operations against Japanese-held Jeju would be ordered. Even if, at that point in time, as reasoned in Tokio, Japan has some modern ships unlike China.

I never said anything about Korea and/or China attempting to retake the island. In fact, while Japan seizing the island would elicit a very strongly-worded response from Korea, the latter would have been much more focused on consolidating its military on the peninsula in preparation for future attacks by Japan, similar to what had occurred during the Imjin War. This doesn't necessarily mean that Japan will actually invade the peninsula outright, but this omnipresent fear will heavily shape both domestic and foreign policy in Korea in the short run. China would also have been more than willing to provide military advisors to Korea in order to stem Japanese "aggression," as it also had been heavily building up its army and navy along Western lines soon after its defeats in the Opium Wars, as well as potentially deterring Japan by sending a handful of warships to Busan.
 
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Beer

Banned
Hi!

@Deimos
Quite correct observation on the political situation in old ATL Tokio.
Your question will be answered with the coming chapter, which should be out tomorrow.

@democracy101
I´ll read your text thoroughly when I am home from from work in the evening. So some fast answers:
ATL France comes fresh from their victory(!) in Mexico, has therefore high morale and does not want a repeat of ATL Shimonoseki. So France does not bring a half-cooked expedition force as OTL, but units in fighting trim with better preparation.
Hokkaido/Ezo is German ATL, so the number of Japanese troops there is not comparable to OTL. In addition, the effects from being in an economic zone with others, less money needed to be spent on Hokkaido and a faster solved, less bloody Boshin war begin to add up. While this becomes faster and much more pronounced later, ATL 1874/75 Japan is in a somewhat better position than OTL.
The ATL situation in Korea after 1866 is a bit of a wank I made for the help given to me by Zeppelinair. While possible, the late governments of Joseon doesn´t strike me as open, more stagnant and partly inept. So I gave the regent a moment of clarity (which happenend in various places over time OTL as well) after the French intervention.
 
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