Hi!
First a thank you to whoever nominated my TL for the Turtledove Award 2015!
Well, Beer, it needed done.
Hi!
First a thank you to whoever nominated my TL for the Turtledove Award 2015!
Well, that's not good. Because, that means that the Italians do not trust their royal family, because if they give their ancestral home away, what else will they give away.Hi!
France got Savoy and Nizza like OTL and kept it. Losing the Romanic-Germanic War did not change it. Bismarck toyed with a return of them to Italy during the peace negotiations, but that was just used as a pressure measure and bait. Bismarck did not take it into consideration seriously.
Hi!Hello.
Thanks for the good wishes, I am now better.
Our conversation on Korea isn't dead yet, it's just...
Hi!Well, that's not good. Because, that means that the Italians do not trust their royal family, because if they give their ancestral home away, what else will they give away.
BTW giving Savoy to France was the reason for Garibaldi to march towards Rome and if he had been faster Italy would have become a Republic and would have demanded Savoy back. Also, most Savoyans did not want to be part of France. The whole referendum had been a farce.
No German or Japanese source I have hints that way.
We Germans might have relations with Japan for "just" 150+ years, but they were friendly from the start. Here is a rough translated excerpt from "Japan 151", an OTL tourist guide for Germans:
"Germany and Japan have relations for over 150 years. In all that time, except for one battle in WW1, there were no noteworthy conflicts. With no other nation worldwide Japan has such a close, friendly and positive relationship[...] Germans get great trust and respect in Japan. So for it to stay like this, please don´t be an axe in the Chrysanthemum Forest. (when you visit)"
That is OTL. ATL Germany did even more for Japan, right from the beginning. Do you see why it is highly likely that ATL Japan will follow German advice often? Especially under the better ATL circumstance?
I stand by my version.
I base my TL on German, Japanese, Austrian, some French, British, American, Russian sources and further sources, if available, from nations playing a part. I stand by my extrapolation.
Hi!I'm not sure why a brief excerpt from a tourist guide (which overly emphasizes positive points) has to do anything with thoroughly explaining deep-rooted historical issues.
I agree that there are very few sources on "old" Korea. I mostly use Dutch Koen de Ceuster´s and German Max von Brandt´s books on East Asia. Von Brandt was eye-witness of many events there in the late 19th century and his works on East Asia are among the best. He was one of the first Westerners to really study China, Korea and Japan.In any case...
I think your problem comes from the fact that I do not write down every incident/event that happens in ATL. I simply lack the time for that. And who said that Japan does not act in Korea in 1884? They act by beginning to get the Korean economy under control.I also have a difficult time understanding why Japan would choose not to interfere at all within the peninsula by 1884 ITTL...
Hi!
The excerpt (Btw the whole book has chapters on Japan´s dark side too) was used just to underline the historically very good relations between Germany and Japan. I know that the relations Korea-Japan are "difficult" for various reasons, but the excerpt should show Germany in aggregate and I personally had very different experiences over time how Japan/Japanese react. And that Germany is more likely to influence a decision of Tokyo than Korea is. (No offence meant)
I agree that there are very few sources on "old" Korea. I mostly use Dutch Koen de Ceuster´s and German Max von Brandt´s books on East Asia. Von Brandt was eye-witness of many events there in the late 19th century and his works on East Asia are among the best. He was one of the first Westerners to really study China, Korea and Japan.
As for Japanese sources: I use mainly German translations, some English, but I can read them in Japanese (with a lexicon for Kanji, I only know a couple of the most important ones), if there is no translation available. My spoken Japanese is better.
I think your problem comes from the fact that I do not write down every incident/event that happens in ATL. I simply lack the time for that. And who said that Japan does not act in Korea in 1884? They act by beginning to get the Korean economy under control.
Germany is only in as an ally of Japan, Korea is not massivly on the Radar in ATL Berlin as well.
Hi!there were very complicated interactions between Japan and Korea between 1867 (beginning of Meiji's reign) and 1875, which involved a variety of both diplomatic and military means, and essentially set the tone for further relations between them until 1910...
To clarify, I was just very confused about what exactly was occurring within Korea ITTL at the time, given that Japan seems to have directly intervened by taking Jeju Island only a year after the diplomatic note incident...
As a result, if Japan decides to forgo diplomacy entirely and skip directly to the use of military force within a year ITTL, it would also have directly intervened in the peninsula at a much larger scale than the situation IOTL. Hence why I had brought up prior Japanese historiographical perceptions, as well as direct military intervention within the peninsula.
Hi!
I think I see one of the "strife points". Let me explain it like this:
While Japan is modernising for roughly one and a half decade by the time of the ATL diplomatic note incident and the taking of Jeju-do, it is still growing into his new position and a bit unsure of the reched standing. The View of Edo/Tokio is much more focused on Europe than OTL, their economy step by step getting more aligned with mainly Germany´s, but other European economies by proxy too. Old foci still exist, but they lost some importance for a time.
When the incident happens, Germany is still building up more power projection capacities in East Asia and is in the midst of the ATL Kulturkampf, so cannot help all that much.
While later on Germany can help more, the time between ATL diplomatic note incident and the 1890s is best described as Japan testing the waters. This is the reason aggressive moves and restraint change position all the time. With Germany unable to help much if the situation escalates to include e.g. China, still insecure about how far Japan´s modernisation has come, Tokio decides on occupying Jeju-do instead of say Busan. While symbolic, it is remote enough to not stear up a lot of trouble politically and initially there is still the carrot that Korea can get the island back, if they pay their debts.
After Gapsin, it is the same two steps forward, one back. At that time Japan is more sure of it´s standing and the closest ally can do more, but with Bismarck´s Germany giving advice, Tokio is content with making Korea more ripe for taking for now, both awaiting the international reaction. 25 years of more intense cooperation/modernisation and membership in a different economic-cultural zone has impacted old priorities in Japan a lot more than OTL ever did.
HI!The Japanese gov't does not have the hindsight to realise that going too far would be disastrous.
Furthermore, since there has been no precedent for the ATL Japan-Germany alliance,...
I answer that tomorrow or Monday.
Hi!Anyway, my point is that there would have been no incentive for Japan to occupy/attack Jeju Island (which isn't exactly located "between" Korea and Japan, by the way) or any other location in Korea if it did not want to become militarily involved in the short run...
From the book "Ripples in the pond - Side effects in History", Gotland Förlag, 2009
Chapter 3 - Korea
. . .
Neither Germans nor Japanese could know or guess what would happen in Korea. The end of the Joseon Empire began in Shimonoseki 1864 . . . Paris intervened in 1866 for the persecuted Catholics in Korea, the government was loath to risk a repeat in East Asia.
Most military history experts agree that this "want to win" attitude was the reason France pushed on despite stingy losses on Ganghwa and in the taking of a fortified monastery on the way to Seoul. But the forces of French Admiral Roze were too weak for a march on the Korean capital. The Regent of Korea on the side wanted peace to stabilize the nation, which had seen a number of uprisings due to corruption and poverty.
It came to the face-saving treaty of Munsusansong in late 1866. France could sail home with prestige won, even if the actual French influence in Korea had been stifled, while the isolationist Joseon dynasty could keep the opening of Korea limited to some areas. The French-Korean Trade treaty, part of the peace negotiations, is seen today as a sort of, if unsuccessful "F... you" to the Germans in nearby Japan.
Unsuccessful because the French did not endear themselves with the attack on Korea and it was limited in scope, nothing more than a less harsh unequal treaty.
Still, this treaty set a precedent and within a few years several Great Powers and Japan secured trade agreements.
It was now that Regent Daewongun earned his major place in Korean history. The years between 1866-69 had made it clear to him that Korea had only a chance if some reforms and modernisations would be executed.
Even before 1866 Daewongun had initiated some reforms and begun to combat the rampant corruption . . . in 1873 King Gowong became the ruler of Korea, the reforms had begun to stabilize Korea economically and the extreme poverty of much of the population had eased a little bit. The life expectancy was still just in the mid-twenties for most of the population, but the Chungin, the middle class, became the hope of the rulers to modernise Korea far enough to withstand the foreigners. A modernisation program was started, but it derailed . . . Overconfidence and a return to corruption . . . led not only to a rising debt but to costly and often unsuccessful special projects.
. . .
The rising debt forced the Korean government to look for moneylenders. Japan convinced the Zollverein to put up capital, to make Korea dependent on them . . .
. . .
For Korea the problems, internal and external, began to start fully. The Regent´s anti-corruption course had stabilised and in conjunction with a small economic rise brought most Koreans to back the old system again, but King Gowong´s false handling of the situation kept the resistance in Korea alive. For now, most of Korea had closed ranks against the foreigners, but the returning corruption and the overly expensive, shaky modernisation were deep, unsolved problems.
Hi! again!
ATL France, due to the TL circumstances, sent around 3 times the number OTL France did. But even that was just a regiment and a bit. It was more a punishment expedition than a real campaign, so France could see it as a real win.
Japan/Nippon
-map-
Recording from a lesson in the Audimax of the Franz-Ferdinand-University Wien 2012
"Distinction of Cultures - The industrial Take-off in East Asia"
. . .
Unlike the imperial government in Beijing, the regent in Hanseong learned the right lesson from the first real confrontation with Europeans . . .
Here now was one of the deciding differences between the two. For all the flaws, the Tokugawa Shogunate had made Japan united and internally stable. The Joseon dynasty on the other hand had several prolonged periods of massive corruption . . . Uprisings, rebellions were numerous and long-lasting . . .
For once, the Regent of Korea, under the impression of the French incursion and examples seen in Japan, pulled off a really good performance . . .
When Regent Daewongun gave over the staff . . . he had changed Korea in just 7 years. The nation had returned to a, if brittle, unity, the corruption lessened . . .
. . .
Gowong and his sycophants were too sure about the power of the old "Big Brother" China, when clear signs were present that Beijing had problems with the western nations.
In addition, the last independent government of Korea invested heavily in prestige projects to show the world East Asian, in special Korean, superiority. This was not only a hit and miss game, one of the biggest failures a flying boat with feathered wings, but thoroughly expensive.
Money was loaned from any source Hanseong could reach, even the old rival Japan. Soon the debt had risen to very high levels, but that was just the beginning . . .
In 1874, the Japanese government sent a diplomatic note to Korea . . .
Among the Kanji characters used where the ones for "imperial" and "Decree". Back then in Korea it was only the Chinese emperor who could use these characters in letters and the Korean government refused the note from Japan.
While even Beijing nudged Korea . . . Hanseong did not move, convinced that their modernisation would be enough to weather the storm.
Freshly elected Shogun Yoshinobu Tokugawa meanwhile recognised the chance the Korean stubbornness offered. Being sure of German support, in autumn 1875 a Japanese fleet landed on and occupied Jejudo, an Island between Japan and Korea. The explanation was easy: The Korean government purposely overreacted on a harmless note . . . in the light of Korean unreasonableness, the Imperial government of Japan occupied Jejudo . . . returned after Korea paid off her debts.
Most nations swallowed that explanation without trouble, the situation seemed clear. What only few nations knew, was that in the light of Korea´s ever more precarious finances paying off the debt to Edo would be long in the future, if ever. This was in essence a night and fog annexion . . .
Japan on the other side had taken the first step to become a classic Great Power with Korea now set in the sights.
Hi!
I know Jeju-do sits "in the left corner", but taking the Island should show two things. No nation in this TL is perfect, all make sub-optimal choices or full mistakes too and the changes to OTL adding up.
ATL Japan´s government, while having many OTL faces in it, is not the same as OTL. As said in an earlier post, Japan is testing the waters how far it can go.
As the reason, they took the Korean dragging of the feet of the credits given to them for their modernisation. Tokio is rather sure that Japan is in the better position, but last doubts and advice convince the government to aim for something "less important". Busan would have been a better choice, but Jeju Island is still a logical one, even if it is a sub-optimal.
To keep the possibility of an international reaction small, Jeju-do is good. Beijing does not really care about that Island and Japan is quite open that the occupation of Jeju is to hasten the paying off of Koreas debts and that they would give back the Island when that was accomplished. (at least in theory)
It was highly unlikely, that while a hostile reaction form Hanseong and Beijing is a given, actual operations against Japanese-held Jeju would be ordered. Even if, at that point in time, as reasoned in Tokio, Japan has some modern ships unlike China.