Discussion: When and why did Jews come to be seen as a race and not just a religion?

Perhaps not, but it certainly shows how Jews saw themselves at the time of the writing of the Torah.
I would argue that the destruction of the Second Temple and subsequent diaspora was a fundamental break in Jewish self-perception (hence the internal definition of Judaism), which went deeper than the level a single Bible verse can attain. Just like you can’t reduce both Greek Orthodoxy and Pentecostalism to John 3:16, no matter how much adherents of each emphasise it. But regardless, the OP is less about how Jews saw themselves - and commemorating a past unity and homeland is very different from actually living in it, not to mention the countless material differences between the respective ways of life - and more about how Gentiles, or rather European society as a whole, placed the role of Jews within an entire sociopolitical system.
 
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True, in a sense, but arguments from continuity are always a little flat. The gaps between the Shasu of YHW, Jesus' followers and opponents, Luther's Jews, and the State of Israel's predominant ethnoreligious group are so immense that, to answer any historical question like this, you have to start somewhere. In practice, a question like this isn't "when did the Jews form as a group?" but rather "when did the Jews become the group that we define them as today?" - and that begins, not in the Bronze Age, but in the Early Modern period.

To put it another way, you could say we're discussing the ethnoreligious category that Jews (among others) occupy, not the Jews who happen to occupy it.
Why early modern? I would say at some point during the early-high middle ages transition period.
 
Apostate Jews are still Jews. What are you talking about?
Well, in modern times they are.
At about the same time as the concept of "race" (and with it, "nationality") itself came into existence - that is, in such complex and varied ways across time and space that you can't pinpoint any year, or even century, between 380 A.D. and 1933 that the transition occurred. Yes, the proto-racialist limpieza de sangre in Spain had a huge impact on Jews living there, but it's not like all of Europe suddenly came to appreciate this new definition of humanity that the Spanish crown invented. And even limpieza de sangre was only proto-racialist; it was a discriminatory policy directed against two specific minorities, not a universal system of classification like the 19th- and 20th-century racialists (or, for that matter, 21st-century censuses) drew up. I don't really buy the argument that limpieza de sangre was an ideology, in the way we'd understand it today, or even a particularly clear precursor to it.

Actually, I'd say that the idea that Judaism is "just a religion" is about as new as the idea that it's a race. Medieval economics, especially the relationship between the town and countryside, encouraged the segregation of Jews as an urban caste; that system started to break down in the Early Modern era, which brought back serious ideas of mass conversion, as opposed to occasional pogroms or explusions. Consider the case of Martin Luther: in the earliest years of the Reformation, he naïvely thought that Jews would convert to the purified Christianity he'd set about making, and so had (for his time) relatively liberal attitudes toward them. At that time, he condemned discrimination against them as an impediment to their conversion. When they failed to convert - no surprise - he turned into the vicious anti-Semite of On the Jews and their Lies. But he never gave up on the idea of conversion, leading to this bizarre paragraph:



Well, it seems bizarre to us today, but it makes sense if you consider Luther's entire worldview as a spiritual revolutionary. The idea that "Jews are Jews, nothing to be done about it" can be interpreted either as racialism, or as part of the medieval *caste system; but you can only conflate the two with regard to a third alternative, that every human being has an equivalent individual soul regardless of ethnicity and economic role. That's an invention of early modernity - expressed in Germany as Protestantism, but filtering gradually through all of Europe - just as much as racialism is. It's even more interesting, and more historically accurate, to see racialism and humanism as the two sides of the modern coin, but that's a lot to discuss.
Agreed: on 'limpieza de sangre', you are right, I should have said 'discourse' rather than 'ideology'. It was certainly not an all-encompassing classificatory system.
 
Considering arendt's subdivisions of jews in her letter to jaspers (as risky it is to base the perception of a whole people in a letter), israeli intra jew prejudices that ended up spelling the end of labor zionism and the treatment of ethiopian jews in israel despite their rescue by the israeli state, i risk my hide in saying that they're only a tribe(and consider themselves as one) in opposition to an historically hostile europe and middle east.
To sum it up they all hate eachother inside that category as much as we hate eachother outside it, but they stick together.
 
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Jews were always a race/nation. Even during the roman era a Jew was someone who was originally from Judea, or descended from those who were from Judea, its just like every other people named after their country, Egyptians Egypt, Germans Germany. Just so happened that all or most Jews practices Judaism. They have always been called Jews even by the romans and the Greeks.
 
In all times
Not from a Gentile perspective. A Jew converting to Islam, generally, was then considered a Muslim, and so would be their offspring. I understand that Jewish law still considered them Jews, but that law no longer applied to those people usually.
 
I actually think it would be more useful to see ethnicity as a primarily subjective thing, as opposed to objectively definable (more or less) ancestry.
No. I can't as an English person subjectively declare myself Russian. Ethnicity is entirely based on ancestry, however your culture is a more subjective thing - which I think is what you're thinking about
 
No. I can't as an English person subjectively declare myself Russian. Ethnicity is entirely based on ancestry, however your culture is a more subjective thing - which I think is what you're thinking about
You can, if you take residence in Russia and adopt being Russian and Russians accept you as Russian. Ethnicity is not entirely individually subjective, I agree; but still not objective too. It is intersubjective: created by an agreement of subjective perceptions.
 
You can, if you take residence in Russia and adopt being Russian and Russians accept you as Russian. Ethnicity is not entirely individually subjective, I agree; but still not objective too. It is intersubjective: created by an agreement of subjective perceptions.
No - I could become culturally Russian - but I wouldn't be ethnically Russian.
 
Think of it like this. Most tribes and nations who have converted to different religions maintained their previous identities. Persians stayed Persian after conversion to Islam. Slavs stayed slavic after conversion to christianity. However, jews who convert to a different religion usually cease to be jewish in most practical terms.
 
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