DBWI : What if the Soviet Union never invaded Germany in World War 2?

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

In Summer 1942, Stalin launched Operation Rurik, the largest land invasion in history. Along the way, Soviet soldiers committed numerous war crimes, raping German civilians and looting cities. This infuriated Hitler and soon Hitler became bloodthirsty for revenge. But what if Operation Rurik never happened? What if Germany invaded the USSR first?

OCC :
Source : David Glantz thinks that the Soviets’s own plans for an offensive war would happen in Summer 1942. World War 2 starts out as OTL, but with Soviets going on offensive first.

 

[Questerr]

Well considering the German loot-based economy collapsed in early 1943, I can’t imagine things would have turned out much better for them.

 

[AltoRegnant]

D-Day wouldn't be pulled off in late 42, that's for sure. Hitler was insane, but he knew he needed to build up what he could, hence why even when be economically bullied the balkans he didnt make them join the axis (it would cut them from the allies and thus him from the oil). I would assume germany launches the attack in march 43 or 44, where loot and plunder could sustain them for maybe a year.

Stalin probably wouldn't get Austria on his side of the iron curtain, and I don't think it would be Petain's forces who lead the charge into Germany- an extra year of dominance likely forces him to truly kowtow, so france doesn't turn traitor on berlin when D-Day lands. On the one hand it protects against the stereotype that "a Frenchman is less honest than a snake" but on the other hand, that means France faces a year more of looting and dependency, as well as whatever the americans do to the place in the invasion. I imagine petain is regarded with a lot more distaste than otl, where it seems every high school kid thinks he's "emblematic of the moral ambiguity in ww2."

 

[Tales Weaver]

Stalin probably wouldn't get Austria on his side of the iron curtain, and I don't think it would be Petain's forces who lead the charge into Germany- an extra year of dominance likely forces him to truly kowtow, so france doesn't turn traitor on berlin when D-Day lands. On the one hand it protects against the stereotype that "a Frenchman is less honest than a snake" but on the other hand, that means France faces a year more of looting and dependency, as well as whatever the americans do to the place in the invasion. I imagine petain is regarded with a lot more distaste than otl, where it seems every high school kid thinks he's "emblematic of the moral ambiguity in ww2."

This has ended up legitimizing vichy regime. France had to go through another 20 years of dictatorship under petain.

 

[CountDVB]

This has ended up legitimizing vichy regime. France had to go through another 20 years of dictatorship under petain.

His reign and that if his allies ended pretty badly. Of course, the USSR’s own focus on Europe meant they neglected China so the Americans did the heavy work there. It’s why the British had to rebuild Japan; the Americans were too busy with China.

Granted, it did mean it didn’t fall to Mao or the others, but still.

The USSR had to scale back on a lot of what they wanted to do after invading Germany and was held by tape the whole time.

Them not invading might have made things more stable in Europe and not the somewhat troubled state here. The Americans lost a lot of respect for most of Europe and gained a lot with China, excluding Mao and Kai-Shek.

I mean, it’s not like the Americans could talk since they were left looking pretty bad when Hitler made it clear at the Vienna Trials the Nazis took examples from it, but that just meant the Americans actually made the massive effort of reparations and atonement. Civil rights movement, dismantling the KKK and other groups and so on. It wasn’t all peaceful (the American mercenary groups fighting alongside African revolutionaries is still something kinda weird), but they’re making an effort and even now, it’s something they haven’t forgotten.

 

[Sam R.]

While I acknowledge the transformation of raciality from "the by the same brush" dirty germans myth, I take real umbrage at the myth of Soviet rapes.

The Soviet Union was an incompetent invader. Its armies barely civillians. But it was *orderly* due to the commisar dual order systems. Only tertiary line of supply troops raped. Many were executed. The statistics were excellent. Soviet rapes were *below* British and *well below* French rapes, as they were not motivated by shame and humilitation. This continued after surrender, where Soviet soldiers were regularly tried and executed for rapes. The data available after the fall of the Soviet Union has been demonstrative.

British soldiers raped from national shame.
French soldiers from national humiliation.
Soviet soldiers raped at the average rate of uncontrolled troops with no other motivation.

You're acting as if Germany had humilitated the Soviet Union like France, or murdered many of its people like Jews or Poles. The border between the Soviet Union and the invasion was quietescent. The Soviet Invasion was mercenary, political, or avaricious. It was anything but rapacious.

The myth of the "dirtier soviet" is cover to explicate the myth of the dirty German and the dirty American. "We fight them. They must be worse." Well you can disagree with their politics, and they failed despite the revolutions in central europe trying to bring them back to their true spirit; but, at least with the Germans, the Soviet Union was cleaner than the yanks.

As far as the Poles (excluding Jews), they were as dirty as the Germans.

yours,
Sam R.