DBWI: The Emperor of China has just been assassinated

[Nietzsche]

semi-ooc: Ok, now that's simply not true. China would invest a great deal of time and money into finding inventive ways of combating the United States Navy, especially when it comes to supremacy in the Pacific. The Li Hongzhangs are a supercarrier sized vessel designed for long range patrol, especially in the Pacific and Indian oceans. One of the reasons for its size is because the Chinese would be running a fairly heavy naval AWACS off them, in order to coordinate air groups. Also, the Li Hongzhangs would need to be large because they would be running heavy strike planes off their decks, as the Chinese Fleet Air Arm's primary purpose is to attack sea and land targets from carrier decks. The carrier version of the J-16 is about 4-5m longer than the F-24, because it's designed to carry heavier anti-shipping ordnance, designed to first knock out the radars of the Aegis cruisers, then take out their associated carriers.

The Kennedys appear to be smaller, but that's only because there's many of them. However, their disadvantage is that they can't carry as many radar pickets with them, hence my comments about inferior electronics. The Bismarck, at 375m, is just huge. Also, Nietzsche, you might want to check your figures. The runways at Guam etc. are 10,000 ft. long for a reason. There's *no way* a heavy bomber could land on and take off from an aircraft carrier.

Totally OOC: As for being good at everything? Probably not, but China's biggest problem is (as Nietzsche described it) that it's trying to fight the wrong kind of war, which has nothing to do with technology.

OOC: Sorry about that. Went a touch overboard(I was looking for reference pictures, and saw a B-52 parked on top of a carrier).

IC:

Yes. China is completely prepared to fight a war that might've occurred in 1958. But this is 2008. Different ballgame. As witnessed in the Sri Lanka conflicts, China isn't prepared to support the proxy wars to the extent needed. Perhaps, if China had a more mobile army, more readily able to detach and support small conflicts without making alot of noise internationally, India would own Sri Lanka, and not Australsia.

Edit: <_< damn. You edited before I noticed.

 

[YLi]

OOC: Well, I was under the impression that China's stuff was generally, quality-wise, a grade bellow the other two superpowers, but they, on land at least, could churn out such a dramatically large force that it easily balanced it out. If not, then what is China's major weakness?

I imagined it like this, though you guys are probably thinking of something entirely different:

Greater USA had the best Navy through a combination of size and technology.

The German Empire is likely the most advanced overall but is limited by its manpower and by having to hold down rebellious populations throughout it's Empire.

China is the least advanced but has a GIGANTIC population and nearly inexhaustible resources.

Please give me your vision of the world Li, as I really don't wish to step on any ones toes.

ooc: The German Empire is spot on, but the situation I described in the original post suggests that the Chinese Empire is actually somewhat like the German Empire in nature, especially in terms of discontentment (note that Yue, Korean and Tibetan rebels have been quite active). The vast majority of the peasantry, during combat, would be given a bolt action rifle or submachine gun and told "have fun". The Imperial Banners are highly professional, well trained soldiers with a well designed logistical support base and a warrior-scholar class (Li Hongzhang, Yue Fei, Zhuge Liang etc. are all historical examples) that was specifically created to lead such an organization. China does have a huge population, but it won't trust the peasantry to bear arms (for fairly obvious reasons). During times of crisis, reservists will be activated, but the peasantry would be used as cannon fodder or meat shields. The Naval and Air Banners would not have any of the peasantry, and would thus maintain a high degree of professionalism, especially since both branches work closely with defense contractors to share brainpower.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Has anyone considered the idea of peace talks. I know that President Nader is dead set to confront the "Chinese threat", but as the honorable Senator Bill O' Reilly (R-NY) has brought up, "Considering that the United States and German military have stretched themselves thin with troops in the United Arab Republic, the Wahabist Theocracy of Arabia, and Zimbabwe, shouldn't we consider the possibility of peacetalks, before destroying the lives of our young men and women?"

 

[YLi]

Well, if Nader keeps his hawkish attitude, there can be only war.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Well, if Nader keeps his hawkish attitude, there can be only war.

That would be easier if Empress Dowager Soong Mei-Mei would accede to the demands of the international community and actually come to the negotiating tables provided by the League of Nations in Sao Paulo, Brazil. It would behoove the Empress to consider means other than military force, especially when confronted with war against the United States and Prussia...

 

[YLi]

Again, China will not comply with the irrational demands of the League of Nations, or should I say League of American Sycophants. China has every right to self determination, and it will not buckle under American pressure, nor will it answer to the Prussians. Do you honestly think Her Imperial Majesty, the Empress, will sit at the negotiating table and agree to become America's bitch? That's never going to happen.

If you want anything, you'll have to take it.

 

[admkenshin]

What exactly is it that the americans are demanding of China? If it's retreat from Yue, maybe they should clean up their own backyard first...

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

What exactly is it that the americans are demanding of China? If it's retreat from Yue, maybe they should clean up their own backyard first...

All that the international community, through the League of Nations, is asking of Empress Dowager Soong Mei-Mei, is to accede to the same standards of international law and conduct that have been asked of all leaders around the world. Just consider that whether you are Chancellor Jurgen KLinsmann or President Ralp Nader, all leaders must be beholden to the law....

 

[ray243]

All that the international community, through the League of Nations, is asking of Empress Dowager Soong Mei-Mei, is to accede to the same standards of international law and conduct that have been asked of all leaders around the world. Just consider that whether you are Chancellor Jurgen KLinsmann or President Ralp Nader, all leaders must be beholden to the law....

Written with the western nation interest in mind...just like the UN.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Written with the western nation interest in mind...just like the UN.

Why do people assume that President Wallace's proposed "United Nations" would have been a bad idea? Wallace, certainly helped prevent the rise of totalitarianism in Europe and helped pull the world out of a economic depression. Just remember that Empress Dowager Soong Mei-Mei can't continue to believe that isolationism and a bellicose attitude is beneficial to the interests of the Chinese people.

 

[santosza]

It's sad that the emperor died, he was an inspiration to a lot of people, I hope that China can live on because of this. I would also like to add that if the Emperor in 1912 hadn't decided to modernise hos country then the Japanese army would break through South China and would have reached the factories in Zengshu.

One of China's greatest feats during the Second Great War was to defend the Southern coast from probing attack and invasion forces. I believe that if those forces hadn't been there to hold the line then China would have been in deep trouble. My grandmother lives in Southern China and she is...

 

[YLi]

Why do people assume that President Wallace's proposed "United Nations" would have been a bad idea? Wallace, certainly helped prevent the rise of totalitarianism in Europe and helped pull the world out of a economic depression. Just remember that Empress Dowager Soong Mei-Mei can't continue to believe that isolationism and a bellicose attitude is beneficial to the interests of the Chinese people.

First of all, the American genocide of the British population wasn't an act against totalitarianism in Europe, so much as it was an act of genocide. 5 million dead Britons and another 2 million dead Irishmen would disagree with you if you dispute me on this point. And as for isolationism: Check everything in your house. 95% of everything you own was probably made in China. You probably drive a Chery, your appliances are Haier, your computer was made by Wuhuan, you use the Guanxi (1) social networking service and you're probably eating Chinese take-out right now. Modern civlized life would be impossible without China, and you know this as well as I do.

As for the crushing defeat of the Imperial Japanese Army in the Second World War, that was inevitable. The IJA landing force at Shanghai was outnumbered something like 35:1, and the Bannermen had decent artillery and air cover. I don't even know what on Earth the Japanese were thinking when they tried to invade China.

~*~*~*
(1): This TL's equivalent of Facebook.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

First of all, the American genocide of the British population wasn't an act against totalitarianism in Europe, so much as it was an act of genocide. 5 million dead Britons and another 2 million dead Irishmen would disagree with you if you dispute me on this point. And as for isolationism: Check everything in your house. 95% of everything you own was probably made in China. You probably drive a Chery, your appliances are Haier, your computer was made by Wuhuan, you use the Guanxi (1) social networking service and you're probably eating Chinese take-out right now. Modern civlized life would be impossible without China, and you know this as well as I do.

As for the crushing defeat of the Imperial Japanese Army in the Second World War, that was inevitable. The IJA landing force at Shanghai was outnumbered something like 35:1, and the Bannermen had decent artillery and air cover. I don't even know what on Earth the Japanese were thinking when they tried to invade China.

~*~*~*
(1): This TL's equivalent of Facebook.

First considering that that the tyranny of PM Oswald Mosley (UK) and the"Pater" Charles de Gaulle, I certainly believe that President Henry Wallace was justified in his actions to eliminate totalitarianism and authoritarianism in Western Europe. Despite the rantings of King Edward VIII, the camps discovered by American troops were created by the British, in an effort to exterminate the Jewish populace...

I would also counter by pointing out that American pop culture is is even more interconnected into Chinese culture than you would have us believe. You probably drank a cup of Peet's Coffee and ate an "In & Out" burger for lunch today, whether you are in Xinjiang or Nanjing. The top 6 movies at the box office, whether in Beijing or Hong Kong, would be made in America, including the films Serenity Rising directed by Joss Whedon, Indiana Jones & The Garden of Eden by George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, and Confederacy of Dunces starring Eddie Murphy and Mike Meyers. You probably downloaded from the Internet the latest episodes of Joey (NBC-TV) and Dark Angel (FOX-TV).

As for the issue of Imperial Japan, you forget that the IJN also served the Chinese brutal defeats initially from 1936-1938 with their attacks on the coastal areas of Shanghai, Hong Kong, Fuzhou, Tianjin and Ningbo led by Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto....

 

[I Guangxu]

As an aside from the current thread of conversation, I'd like to return to a statement made earlier about the relative quiet of the Uighur and Afghans in recent years.
I would contend that to assert that the Uighur and the Afghans have passively acquiesced to Chinese rule is ultimately false. The reason why these regions have relatively "quiet", as you say, is simply because these peoples have shifted from violent resistance to nonviolent resistance. Civil disobedience has tended to replace the bombing, shooting, and rioting that used to characterize these areas. The most violent most of these groups seem to get anymore is self-immolation, which although not necessarily pleasant, I would certainly call an improvement over suicide-bombings.
There are several varying reasons one can give for the motivation behind this shift. I for one would argue that in this case it was due, not to fear of the Banner forces, but rather to the enduring philosophical legacy of Nobel laureate Dr. Abu.

Certainly there are many for whom explaining this particular point would be redundant, but as the man still isn't as well known as he really ought to be, I will do so for the benefit of those who don't know of him.
Even though it would certainly be a gross oversimplification to attribute the ideological shift of an entire culture to a single individual, I would assert that Dr. Abu is an individual for whom this might be almost true. His teachings and practices of nonviolent resistance, based on his view of Quranic scripture, began as a lone voice advocating peace during the mid 70's, a turbulent period for the Muslim world. The combination of his charismatic personality and his sincere character gave his teachings momentum as an alternative to the bloody conflicts that were typical of that era (and in truth are typical of all eras), such that by the time of his assassination in 1988 (ironically by a fundamentalist Muslim suicide-bomber) he had sparked a growing revolution in Muslim political ideology. This revolution of nonviolence has only really intensified in the twenty years following his martyrdom, a revolution which I link to the present nonviolent practices of Muslim resistance in the Chinese Empire.

 

[YLi]

Mr. Bondoc: We are all perhaps a bit more integrated than we all thought. As for the Chinese "defeats", need I remind you that the Chinese built more ships and planes in 6 months than the IJN did for the entire war? Between the USN and ICN, the IJN was utterly crushed. Sure they got the better of the ICN in the first couple of years, but then, the tide began to turn against them. The Americans didn't even have to do that much to finish the Japanese off, besides invade Japan.

Guangxu: While some Chinese may be horrified by the repeated self-immolation incidents, especially the recent one in Tiananmen Square, those are usually people with weak stomachs (1). It takes strength to rule the barbarians in Central Asia, and strength is what must be displayed.

~*~*~
(1): My character is an ardent nationalist. Many Chinese are genuinely horrified by self immolation.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Mr. Bondoc: We are all perhaps a bit more integrated than we all thought. As for the Chinese "defeats", need I remind you that the Chinese built more ships and planes in 6 months than the IJN did for the entire war? Between the USN and ICN, the IJN was utterly crushed. Sure they got the better of the ICN in the first couple of years, but then, the tide began to turn against them. The Americans didn't even have to do that much to finish the Japanese off, besides invade Japan.

Ahh, but consider that the Japanese Code Purple machines were cracked under the U.S. Naval Intelligence Offices in Monterey, CA. Without the American technical and intelligence provided by the OSS and the US Navy, many of the military victories that ICN had would have been overturned! Just consider that it took 6 months for the ICN to track the HMS Yamato until the OSS and the U.S. Navy provided the radio intercepts....

 

[YLi]

The Americans did break the Purple Machine, but couldn't have done it without the help of Eternal Spring Engineering's proto-computing machines. DN-1 was instrumental in breaking Code Purple, and later, DN-2 helped to break TYPEX. IBM's substandard Colossus machines worked nowhere near as fast as the DN series. The Yamato was tracked down by YH-3 surface search pickets and sunk by JH-2 dive bombers flying out of the Ryukyus.

The newest DN-63 Earth Simulator is frequently used by American scientists when they want something fast. The massively parallel field programmable processors in the DN-63 far outperform America's Roadrunner or the German JUGENE IV, and is quite capable of generating solutions for problems that require an unusual amount of lateral thinking, which is something that other supercomputers are certainly incapable of.

 

[Nietzsche]

OOC: Been working on a more realistic map, since the Chinese-Russian border looked(no offense) a little sloppy. I'll finish it up when I get home later today.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

The Americans did break the Purple Machine, but couldn't have done it without the help of Eternal Spring Engineering's proto-computing machines. DN-1 was instrumental in breaking Code Purple, and later, DN-2 helped to break TYPEX. IBM's substandard Colossus machines worked nowhere near as fast as the DN series. The Yamato was tracked down by YH-3 surface search pickets and sunk by JH-2 dive bombers flying out of the Ryukyus.

The newest DN-63 Earth Simulator is frequently used by American scientists when they want something fast. The massively parallel field programmable processors in the DN-63 far outperform America's Roadrunner or the German JUGENE IV, and is quite capable of generating solutions for problems that require an unusual amount of lateral thinking, which is something that other supercomputers are certainly incapable of.

Nietszche- There is a a Mongolian state, which is a disputed territory between Russia and Imperial China....

YLi- You seem to forget the Hewlett-Packard and Motorola which allowed the U.S. Army Signal Corps to begin transmitting information from the field to OSS officials as early as 1942. You also forget the ENIAC computers which served to outperform the analog/clockwork DN-2 and DN-3 computators almost immediately. As for the sinking of the Yamato itself, while the JH-2 bombers did a lot of damage, remember that most of the damage was actually done by the U-571 torpedoes.

As for the DN-63 models, the main reason for their appeal is the fact that most people have yet to write computer viruses for the DN-63 as opposed to the PC. Also remember that 90% of all PCs worldwide, whether the DN-63 or IBM, run on the Windows programs. Before you go into your rants about the supposed superiority of Chinese IT, just remember that 75% of the chips are made worldwide in India.....

 

[YLi]

Before you go into your rants about the supposed superiority of Chinese IT, just remember that 75% of the chips are made worldwide in India.....

In Chinese owned factories.

What can I say? Labor's cheaper there. Hell, you don't have to pay the Indians *ANYTHING*. (1).

~*~*~
(1): It's not really slavery, so much as it is wage slavery...which I guess is a form of slavery.

Nietzsche: Mr. Bondoc's statement on depends which map you're looking at. Mongolia would probably not be recognized as a nation by Prussia or China, but recognized by Russia and the US.