Civilian Jetliners of Alternate History

A very different kind of seaplane.

I think it was brought up in this thread already, but flying boats will always be at a big disadvantage when compared to land based planes since they have to haul a boat hull around with them.

I've often wondered why more hasn't been done--if anything at all has ever--with trying out hydrofoils as landing gear for flying "boats"/amphibians.

I put "boats" in scare quotes because the idea would be to make the fuselage a lot less boat-like. Just some minimal creasing of the lower hull so that the floating hull could reach a speed of say 20-30 knots without too much drag--but no "step." Instead, you have retractable hydrofoils extending from the wings or lower hull (just like standard wheeled landing gear, but with longer, faired struts to submerge the foils well below wave troughs when the hull is just clearing wave crests.

The foils, I'm imagining, are quite dense (presumably made of stainless steel) rather low-aspect ratio elliptical planform wings which can be tilted to get various angles of attack.

Start by extending the foils while afloat (if starting from shore or in very shallow water, taxi out to deeper water with them retracted first!) and using the main engines (or perhaps an auxiliary engine running a submerged screw) "taxi" up toward foil "takeoff" speed. You might as well crank the foil angle of attack up to nearly stall angle, because every bit of lift you can get from them, even way below the speed where there is enough lift to get the fuselage out of the water completely, raises it at least somewhat, thus lowering the drag (and dynamic force) on the fuselage. It comes at the cost of hydrodynamic drag on the foils, but this is after all similar to what happens when the plane is taking off so presumably the engines can give the necessary thrust. At foil takeoff, the hull lifts out of the waves completely; now it is time to start lowering the AoA of the foils, which thus lowers the hydrodynamic drag, while the fuselage is now completely clear--and the air drag is still negligible compared to that at full (airborne) takeoff speeds. Now the acceleration increases as less and less thrust is consumed by the foil drag. Eventually you will pass the optimum lift speed for the foils and drag will start to increase again--bigger foils give earlier lift out of the water but more drag at high speeds, smaller ones mean longer delays to clear the fuselage but lower drag at high speeds. Meanwhile the airspeed is increasing; when well above stalling speed, you "toss" the nose of the plane up by smartly raising the AoA on the forward foils (you will have main foils under each wing and a small one on the tail for a "taildragger" type layout; I think this works better than a "tricycle" type with a nose foil and two main foils farther back, better mainly because of this maneuver and the reverse for landing). This raises the AoA of the wings, lifts the main foils quickly clear of the water, then you check the rising angle of the plane by in turn lifting the tail foil. Now you are airborne, still pretty low but well above the waves, and able to go for a higher lift coefficient (combination of high airplane angle of attack and flaps) than in higher flight because of the ground effect (same thing that makes ekranoplans possible). Accelerating just above the wave tips you reach speeds where high lift is easily achieved, off you go. Meanwhile you have been retracting the hydrofoils into wells on the wings or fuselage (wings much favored, you don't want draggy wells on the fuselage unless they can be totally clear of the water at all times.) They are foils so they won't be as draggy as wheels would be.

Landing (assuming you know you are on a safe approach--you know the bottom depth is greater than foil depth and there are no snags--or assuming you are taking some risk because landing without this preparation is that important...)--approach into the wind, slowing nearly to stall speed. Ease into ground effect, angle the plane up more--drag will slow you more but not as much due to ground effect. Lower the foils, then let the plane down enough to submerge the rear foil. This is tricky because this foil must slice cleanly into the water with minimum drag until it is deep enough to operate reliably, then suddenly raise the lift to bring the tail up and hence level the plane--which losing lift, drops its forward foils into the water in turn--these too have to enter just so. I think some sort of automatic control has to enable these insertions. Then again when reaching foil operation depth the front foils engage and stop the nose-downward pitch and descent of the plane--it is now gliding on the submerged foils, straight and level. As the plane slows you come down to the optimal minimum-drag foiling speed--maybe you throttle the engine to hold it there and taxi, maybe you want to slow down immediately so you let drag slow you more, raising the foil angles which further increases water drag, until these are nearly stalling. At that point you either stall them deliberately (which means a rather sharp brake and also the hull drops into the water, which means even more sudden high drag and possible damage to the hull) or hold them short of that angle and let the hull slowly sink as dynamic lift fades as speed bleeds off gradually. Soon you are a low-speed boat again.

Since you have the necessary forces available from the foils to both lift the fuselage out of the water before hydrodynamic forces will really start battering it, and to achieve a good range of wing AoA (some sources tell me the real purpose of the "step" on a standard flying boat design is mainly to allow the plane to rotate the nose upward for takeoff without it being shoved back down by forces on the rear of the hull) the fuselage can be much more like a standard landplane one. It needs some extra strength to be sure, and it needs to be corrosion-resistant and water-tight. The former will cost in weight and hence either fuel or payload, the latter might cost extra money.
The foil gear itself will also probably weigh somewhat more than wheel gear. But once airborne with the foils retracted, the plane is no more, or at least very little more, draggy than a landplane with its landing gear retracted.

Making this thing an amphibian is a matter of installing wheel gear alongside the water gear.

Drawbacks--well, an unseen underwater snag would be deadly at high foiling speeds (and probably a very bad thing at low speeds too, but that just cripples the airplane--it doesn't wreck it). But flying boats have similar hazards--they are at risk just putting down on any spot of water that looks OK from above. For safe operations one would have people at the destination scout out the water and clear any snags. For fancy military operations and the like, a 1960s or later version could carry a small drone plane--a UAV--to scout it out, landing in the prospective path and scanning it with sonar while the plane circles above pending the verdict.

I've estimated the foil sizes and lift/drag curves before, the main showstopper I think would be cavitation. Water is 800 times the density of air, therefore tremendous lift can be generated on very small areas at very low water speeds--the trouble is such high density lift corresponds to really low pressures, and when dynamic flow lowers water pressure enough, the water boils at the ambient temperature--this is cavitation. Cavitation involves bubbles whose noise of formation and combination and re-collapsing apparently packs quite a wallop, as it can pit propeller blades. Not to mention that water flashing to gas will play havoc with the flow streamlines on the foils and probably increase drag to murderous levels.

I suspect that there can be design workarounds--either using foils big enough to avoid cavitation (it also would help to submerge them deeper--but both these suggestions raise drag especially at high speeds) or perhaps designing the foil so that it is supposed to cavitate and the resulting flow pattern gives efficient lift, damn the pitting!

But I have never heard of anyone trying to use the kinds of foils I am talking about for water take-off and landing. I think I may have heard of someone trying the other kind of hydrofoil--which are basically V-or-U shaped long foils which gradually lift more or less out of the water as speed varies, and can't be controlled (or elegantly retracted) which would obviously only be any good for rather slow airplanes.

Anyway in an ATL without WWII and the massive investment in landplane infrastructure, I would think sooner or later someone would try this approach to watercraft, to try and get the best of both worlds.

When I raised this suggestion some years ago on an alternate aviation site (one mainly dedicated to LTA) someone there sniffed that we shouldn't even think of hydrofoils, we should just develop air cushions for landing/takeoff--that way we automatically have something that can work on either a paved runway or water. Well, the problems of an air-cushion landing/taxiing system for an airplane are not trivial to solve, apparently, from the total lack of any such systems actually being used on any type of airplane, no matter how obscure or experimental. I have downloaded some old documents (1970s) from USAF proposals to develop such systems, but never a verdict on why apparently no one has gone ahead and done so.

Frankly this might be a better idea than the foils--but then again, it was hardly practical before say 1960 (and apparently still not as of 2010!) whereas I'd think the hydrofoil thing could have been tried in the 30s if not in the 20s or even earlier.

Certainly it seems like a better idea than the hydroplaning skis tried on the Convair Sea Dart. These, essentially waterskis, created as one might expect severe pounding when the plane approached takeoff speeds or had just landed. I do wonder why they didn't consider submerging the planes for a smoother ride. Would cavitation be the reason they could not work and so no one has tried it?
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Teh Google is my friend. Apparently someone has tried it, it worked, and then the US Navy decided it didn't want any more seaplanes around then, so forget about it...

:(
 
And didn't BA end up making money off the things, after all?

BA only made money off its few Concordes because they eventually realized they could get away with really high fares. A truly profitable SST (for both airline and manufacturer) would have to be sold in larger numbers than were ever managed in OTL, and airlines probably couldn't price SST tickets as high as BA did if they wanted to fill seats.
***
Without the Nazis, what would've happened to Junkers?
 
However, it wasn't more expensive in one important area--fuel costs. At least, than turbojet-powered narrow-body airliners, which were the competition in 1960 (when most of the SST proposals were, well, proposed). It was the advent of turbofan-powered wide-bodies that doomed them, although you probably can't stop that.
:confused:You're telling me that you burn the same amount of fuel going mach 1.8 as going mach .9? I'd have to see some figures to believe that.
 
You certainly won't be burning the same amount, but as long as you're not burning twice as much (or more), you're still coming out ahead ... ;)

(Talking about fuel use per hour, obviously.)
 
:confused:You're telling me that you burn the same amount of fuel going mach 1.8 as going mach .9? I'd have to see some figures to believe that.

You certainly won't be burning the same amount, but as long as you're not burning twice as much (or more), you're still coming out ahead ... ;)

(Talking about fuel use per hour, obviously.)
Hmmm....
Looking at Wiki, it's hard to find comparable data, but...

The Boeing 720 (a shortened 707)
range: 3,680 nmi (6,820 km)
passengers: 140
fuel load: 16,060 US gal (60,900 l)

Concorde:
range: 3,900 nmi (4,500 mi, 7,250 km)
passengers: 92–120 passengers
fuel load: 210,940 lb (95,680 kg)

Assuming .7 specific gravity for jet fuel (off the top of my head), 61kL is ~43tonnes of fuel, which is half that of the Concorde's....

Not quite comparable, but a 2x fuel cost seems about right.

Did I miss something?
 
Hmmm....
...
Assuming .7 specific gravity for jet fuel (off the top of my head), 61kL is ~43tonnes of fuel, which is half that of the Concorde's....

Not quite comparable, but a 2x fuel cost seems about right.

Did I miss something?

That looks about right--comparing, remember, a first (or counting the Comets and Carvelles, perhaps second) generation jet transport with a first (only!) generation SST, the latter seems OK.

Though note the passenger load of the Concorde is not drastically lower than the 720, but it is lower. Thus fuel cost per passenger-mile is already higher, but hey you get there a lot sooner, right? Surely that is worth a premium on the ticket.

Remember though that paying passengers are how you ultimately pay for the research, development, design, and construction of these gee-whiz planes, and this cost per passenger is lower the more of the planes you can sell, which creates a dilemma--a premium mode of travel will tend to stay pricier than the capital costs alone would justify, because some those costs are spread out among fewer customers, thus discouraging traffic further...one reason the SST projects of the 60s were total no-gos without strong government backing and guarantees.

And global air travel really took off when the price per ticket came down a lot, or at any right striking advances in turbofans lowered fuel consumption per passenger-mile enough to offset the oil shock spike. (After all, with petroleum way more pricy across the board, most of the older alternative modes of transport would also climb in price, more or less--might as well bite the bullet and shell out for an equivalent fuel cost by air and still get there sooner). This was accomplished largely with bigger widebodies--747, DC-10, Airbus--using much more efficient turbofans versus the original 707/727 era turbojets to at the same time haul much bigger passenger/freight loads. That brought down fuel consumption per mile to levels comparable with surface modes--if not as good as diesel trains or even big surface cargo ships, surely competitive with automobiles!

You can compare a Concorde with a 720, but not with a 747. The tradeoff between SST versus economy is much starker there.

Most advances since have been about getting the fuel and other costs per passenger-mile down further. Some of those advances might help a new-generation SST--especially if we settle for performance no better than or perhaps substantially less than Concorde. Mach 1.8 gets you there much sooner than Mach 1.2 but the latter speed still is a strong edge over Mach .9. (Meanwhile advances in military aviation, notably supercruise turbofans and advancing knowledge of moderate supersonic aerodynamics, might also help.) That would be where you might have some hope of getting payload/mile costs (including costs sunk in the design and construction of the plane itself--Mach 1.2 is way less challenging than even Mach 1.8, let alone the sorts of speeds American SST projects were aiming at) down to within 30-40 percent more than comparable subsonics.

But only a hope. Designing a plane that can take off and land in the low subsonic region and then break through the transonic barrier to cruise with any efficiency in even the low supersonic region is basically designing one airplane to do the job of two very different ones; perhaps one might as well forge ahead to Mach 1.5, even to or past Concorde's 1.8, in the hope of finding the sweet spot where higher speed most offsets rising costs?

Plus of course at any supersonic speed you still create the problem of sonic booms for everyone below; these are substantial. Operation would probably be limited to transoceanic routes and at that in lanes offset from traditional subsonic aviation and surface shipping. Thus putting more of a premium on range--which is sort of good because your higher speed is most advantageous to market for longer ranges anyway. But while the payoff is that much higher, so are the stakes.

I am rather surprised no one has taken on any kind of SST challenge since Concorde, but not very. Aerodynamic fundamentals are working against you here.
 
Unresearched outline of generic challenges of SSTs

1) Lift-drag ratio sucks. This is the part where I am vaguest about, dimly remembering various figures from decades of amateur interest in aviation--but I think a good subsonic plane cruises with L/D in the high teens up to maybe even 30--correct me if I am wrong here! Whereas the basic aerodynamics of supersonic lift tend to limit realistic L/D to something like 5 or 6 at best. Again I may be off. But fundamentally, supersonic lift is less efficient. For one thing, you are always generating a form of drag not typical of subsonics--the shock wave.

2) The different nature of supersonic versus subsonic lift indicates very different ideal planforms. Basically subsonic lift is mainly from negative pressure, generated by the more rapid airflow over the top of the airfoil lowering the static pressure due to the basic Bernoulli/Venturi principles. (Yes, I know--the really correct way to approach subsonic fluid dynamics is via principles of circulation. But it remains true that pressure above the wing is less mainly due to lowering it there, not so much due to raising it under the wing.) Whereas supersonic lift is just about entirely a matter of raising the pressure below the wing--the shock wave actually compresses the air, and you get lift by flying at some incidence, thus the shocked air below is denser than above. Moreover, the subsonic pressure distribution above the wing varies a lot over the airfoil surface--it is most lowered in the area right behind the leading edge and climbs back toward the general slipstream static pressure by the time you reach the trailing edge. So on the average, the net lift along a given section of wing chord acts like a single force on the point about 1/4-1/3 of the way back from the leading edge. Integrate over the width of the wing and you have the center of lift as felt at the wing roots. On a delta wing for instance I believe this center works out to halfway between the tip at the center of the delta and the trailing edge there. Whereas the high-pressure lift distribution between the bottom and top of a supersonic wing is pretty much uniform, therefore the center of lift is at the geometric center. Thus on a delta you see it is some distance behind the center at subsonic speeds, so clearly you must either have some additional lift ahead of the main wing at supersonic speeds to have the same overall center of lift as the main wing alone gives you going subsonic, or additional lift surfaces behind the main wing when going subsonic, or else shift mass backwards somehow when going from subsonic to supersonic speeds and vice versa when slowing down. IRL supersonic-capable planes have used all of these strategies in some combination--shifting fuel to alternate tanks is popular and used by the Concorde and also IIRC certain jet fighters such as the F-106. (My father who flew mainly F-106s, later F-16s in his career, but also flew 100 missions over North Vietnam during that war in F-105s(aka "Thunderchief" or "Thud!"), commented in some book on 105s how impressed he was that the Thunderchief did not bobble when breaking the sound barrier the way the 106 did--though his favorite plane by far remains the 106 "Delta Dart." He told me how the 106 used the fuel-shifting strategy.) This is one reason I stress the whole "one plane to do the job of two" thing. It could be that we might get better L/D than 5-6 with supersonic planes--if only they didn't also have to operate subsonic as well. But they do, indeed at very low speeds for takeoff and landing--the greater density of the lower atmosphere versus the stratosphere where supersonic operations normally happen is some help, both because you get more lift at lower speeds and because the engines can deliver more thrust for the same reason--the latter at the cost of really guzzling fuel though. Also, for low speed operations, many supersonic planes have deltas and the like so they can achieve higher lift coefficients without stalling--but that too requires much higher thrust, often achieved in the past with afterburning, which means even faster fuel consumption rates.

Another thing my Dad told me is that it was very difficult to operate supersonic fighters even at the fairly high subsonic speeds typical tanker jets flew at--airborne refueling, though a routine and vital option, is also challenging for these fast jets, because they are operating near the lower limits of their speed when the tanker is flying near its high speed.

3) Transonic transition--between just below Mach 1 and IIRC Mach 1.2 or so, the so-called "transonic region," you get the worst of both worlds. Streamlines are shifting rather chaotically between high-subsonic and supersonic flow patterns, which are quite different. L/D is particularly bad, twice as poor as what you get in the lower supersonic speeds just beyond the transonic zone--since you are probably maintaining lift as well as your controls let you anyway, this means that drag suddenly doubles and stays really high like that until you push on to Mach 1.2; also controls along with the main wings are shifting, somewhat chaotically, their patterns. There is considerable risk of structural shaking of the plane too. No, there isn't an absolute "sound barrier," but this kind of thing still gives the transonic region that name. The thing to do is kick the thrust way up and blast through it as quickly as possible, and only cruise either well above or well below this danger zone. You obviously need a burst of extra thrust--one reason, besides takeoff and dogfighting manuevering and even maintaining cruise speeds in the supersonic region, that afterburning was developed. Or one could use rockets, which was another trick tried.

4) If you manage to meet all these challenges, how fast can you go? Well I believe that the faster you want to cruise, the more challenging--you need more wing sweep (or sharper, narrower wing chords) the higher your Mach factor--everything has to fit inside a tighter and tighter Mach cone. This comes with gradually worsening L/D, and greater deviations from the ideal subsonic forms, so takeoff/landing, subsonic climb/sink are harder. The transonic barrier is also harder, though to be sure the faster your supersonic cruise is the more powerful your engine thrust had better be, so that's a silver lining to the dark cloud.

But meanwhile, you are facing another fundamental reality of supersonic/hypersonic flight--shock heating of the air. When the air goes through the shock wave it is compressed, therefore heated. (Which is why the sonic shock wave is not an absolute wall of infinite drag--the shock wave, heating the air, also raises the speed of sound locally, so you don't get an infinite pileup of air density). The faster you go, the hotter. Considering that stratospheric air is much cooler than on the ground is one reason Barnes Wallis looked to a fairly slow SST back in the 50s--at the right supersonic speed, you actually raise the subfreezing air there to around the temperatures humans consider more or less normal, so you can use standard materials and not worry too much about either cooling or heating the cabin. But push on much past that--again I think this sweet spot is somewhere between Mach 1.2-1.5--and now, the air is getting uncomfortably, even dangerously, hot. This is bad for passengers, who will need air conditioning to avoid being cooked. It is also bad for airplanes made of traditional materials like aluminum, because Al alloys tend to weaken considerably as the temperature rises. Thus high-speed SST designs look to exotic materials like titanium and high-temperature steels; this makes them that much more costly--to design, to obtain the expensive metals, to learn how to mill them, etc.

Keep going in your mad quest for speed and soon you are coming into the hypersonic region proper, via what has been called the 'thermal thicket." Now your plane is liable to melt or burn up completely, never mind keeping those roses your passengers are bringing their girlfriends and wives and mothers fresh on their laps. Meanwhile you need more and more thrust while engines of known design lose efficiency and then crap out completely trying to deliver it--indeed in these regions it is hard to find a fuel that will burn in any useful way at all, even if you had an engine that wouldn't vaporize trying to burn it. The wings are glowing cherry-red--forget stealth, you are shining on infrared detectors like Rudolph the Reindeer's nose. (Maybe even high-frequency radar gear can pick up the thermal noise you are putting out!) This is what doomed SS manned bomber projects like the XB-71 Valkyrie--sure you might be able to get there fast and maneuver, and fly very high, but enemy anti-aircraft missiles can certainly lock on and fly faster and rise higher than you ever could.

In the mid-50s ballistic missile and space program designers quickly concluded that the thing to do with the hypersonic region, like the transonic, was get into and out of it as quickly as possible--much harder with a "region" that spreads from around Mach 5 (or lower at low altitudes) to orbital speeds up near Mach 30. Hence the blunt design of missile and spaceship nosecones, designed to be braked to lower speeds upon reentry as fast as possible while still avoiding burnup. Hence the lack of high-Mach maneuverable airplanes that cruise in that regime, never mind how wasteful of fuel you are willing and able to be--your only hopes are to either get effectively above the atmosphere, or slow down fast before you melt completely, as you inevitably must do if you let the plane get thoroughly "soaked" in heat.

Well no one here has gone so far as to suggest a Mach 10 or orbital spaceplane, this last point is just to lay out in advance the challenges you'd have to meet if you did.

The challenges of moderate Mach speeds have proven daunting enough!
 
The history of aviation hasn't closed the chapter on either the flying boat or the supersonic airliner. A new flying boat built from low-maintenance non-corroding composites has been developed by Dornier, mirroring the Dornier Wal configuration, powered by paired push-pull turboprop engines. I wish it success and low cost. Hydrofoil-type development continues. I rode in a hydrofoil boat once, and found it boring, which is probably a good omen. I think the chances of a near-term supersonic biz-jet are pretty good, since so many people are investigating and experimenting with ways to overcome drag penalties and lower sonic boom problems, although I have a psychological aversion to oblique wings.

Piaggiopc7.jpg
 
Not just a bump...

...though it is also a bump because I was enjoying this and it seems to have gone moribund.

Just Leo, is that Italian red seaplane with the tail prop (obviously a waterscrew from its size, not an aero-propeller!) in fact a hydrofoil-seaplane of just the type I was suggesting? If so, did it ever actually fly?

I see it has a symbol on it that looks like insignia of the Fascist era in Italy. Which makes some sense--under Mussolini there was a lot of air-mindedness in Italy.

However if the dang thing had ever actually flown I'd have thought I'd have heard of it by now--I love airplanes, especially when they seem to advance my own pet ideas!

I think if those little sharp-looking flap things on the bottom of the struts are hydrofoils, they are probably too small. Small is good for minimizing high-speed drag but bad for getting the fuselage out of the water soon enough to save on weight and avoid drastic water-streamlining that hurts airborne streamlining--the smaller the foils, the faster the plane has to be going before the lower hull lifts out. Not only more drag, but more battering by surface waves.

Well, I'd be trying to get away from a "boat" hull as much as possible, whereas the article I found and cited seemed to mainly be saying a more or less normal seaplane (boat hull or with floats) could still benefit a lot from hydrofoils.

That red plane's fuselage does not look much like a boat hull at that.

Anyway, was it merely a conceptual design, or did someone actually make it and fly it? And are they foils, or something else entirely? (Maybe small foils meant more for stabilizing the plane than lifting it?)
 
OK...

..I need to learn to research stuff before I post. But I do tend to think with my mouth open--"dialectically" might sound more dignified.

Having Googled Piaggo PC7, I know a lot more now.

Yes, it was built. No, it didn't fly. In 1988 someone flew a radio-controlled model that did work beautifully, taking off from and landing on the water, and also winning the model race.

One reason cited for not flying it in Wikipedia was that a test pilot was discouraged by the spray from the foils. (Other test pilots were apparently afraid to try it at all). The design was rushed due to needing to meet the deadline of the Scheinder Cup Race of 1929. Another problem Alain Vassel indicated was that the complex clutch system used to allow one engine to power both the water screw and the main propeller had issues.

And my skepticism is answered not only by the fact that it did work (well the model did, and I think aside from spray the taxi tests went OK on the water, though the test pilot never did engage the airscrew I guess) but by looking at the weight--it weighed well under two tons. It was after all a racing plane, so it is not unreasonable that such small foils could lift it even at a very modest speed.

So yeah, it can be done. For a practically-sized passenger/cargo or military plane, you'd need bigger foils, and either to eliminate the waterscrew (by positioning the main prop(s) so that you could use it from a standing start--the PC7 obviously had to get raised out of the water before the prop would clear the water, another issue I considered raising) or else power the waterscrew with a separate engine. Or address the transmission issues. With either a transmission or a separate engine the extra weight for that offsets some of the advantage.

With jet engines, the basic concept seems even more elegant--no props to worry about, just use the jet thrust. I seriously wonder why Convair did not consider submerged foils for their Sea Dart.

I certainly have thought about this kind of system for planes like a Boeing 747 (after moving the engine pods up on top of the wing, and aft, kind of like the VFW plane, which by the way was a real commercial plane that did serve some airlines) as well as an upgraded Sea Dart based on the Convair F-106. (Actually the F-102/106 was, if not an actual descendent of the Sea Dart, a close cousin--Convair made delta warcraft their thing in the 1950s). If you use it for a bigger (or in the case of a modern jet fighter, more powerful) plane, you benefit from scale--more thrust for bigger foils at high speed, more space to retract larger foils and longer struts into.

The spray problem by the way might be partially because the foils weren't submerged enough--too close to the surface, obviously the foils will make waves, not to mention slicing out of the water in wave troughs. But also obviously the deeper you want the foils, the longer the struts to separate them from the hull, and that means more drag--more submerged surface. But that would be how to deal with heavier surf.

It is still not clear to me whether the foils could be controlled in pitch. If they were rigidly mounted at one incidence as they appear to have been--well, I guess the rear foil might have been controllable, and using that you could tilt the whole plane. But I would want to control the main foils themselves, because tilting the plane would be less rapidly responsive and also has you risking either pulling the tail foil out of the water or dragging the tail itself in it.

Anyway it baffles me why neither Piaggo nor anyone else, in Italy or Germany or Britain or the United States, tried this again for a working seaplane or flying boat, even during WWII where it would have been useful and the funding would have been forthcoming (at least in the USA!) Perhaps the Russians have? (If you have to deal with water that typically has a lot of ice in it half the year, this approach might look that much less attractive though).

Even today it might find some niches in the commercial and even military market. Sure, the USN has carriers, but wouldn't it also be useful to have high-performance planes that can operate independently of carriers? And lots of navies do not have carriers, yet might want airplanes that can perform like a landplane yet take off and land on water.

But in an alternate world where the massive investment of infrastructure for really big fast landplanes (especially early jet engines, which were problematic in that they didn't generate more thrust at low speeds than high, so they needed tricks like water injection to boost the thrust, and still needed long runways for their relatively slow acceleration) was not so forthcoming I daresay such planes could have become standard. Especially for early transoceanic jetliners.

Thank you, Just Leo, for tipping me off to that pretty airplane!
 
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Sth Dornier Seastar is nearing a production start at a facility near Montreal. The composite construction offers a pass to corrosion effects. The craft can operate in 2 1/2 ft seas.

Sea state is a problem that has to be faced by aircraft operating from water, boat/float or hydrofoil. Maintaining stability in a rough sea state with a high thrust line could be problematic and limiting for scheduled commercial vehicles. However, there is that International Hydrofoil Society wagging their jaws and wiggling their pencils to figure out the possibilities. Time will tell. There's a company near where I live looking into it, I hear. Aquavion Systems Corp. in Ajax, Ontario.

In defence of land-based aircraft, Winkle Brown wrote off one of the Saro flying boat fighters when he landed into a log or something. I once fancied my chances of becoming a cruising sailor until I read of a fancy shmantsy racing yacht with professional crew that sailed into a shipping container awash in mid-Atlantic. Glub glub. Water isn't always so soft.

Dornier_Seastar_Wolfgangsee.jpg
 
Sth Dornier Seastar is nearing a production start at a facility near Montreal. The composite construction offers a pass to corrosion effects. The craft can operate in 2 1/2 ft seas.

Sea state is a problem that has to be faced by aircraft operating from water, boat/float or hydrofoil. Maintaining stability in a rough sea state with a high thrust line could be problematic and limiting for scheduled commercial vehicles....

The way you try to do that with hydrofoils is, you submerge the foil deep enough so that the troughs of the waves are passing well above the lifting surface.

Of course the static pressure of the water above the surface of the foil is somewhat relevant (and also, waves involve circulating flows of water so there is cyclic dynamic pressure as well). It is still not clear to me just how much of a problem cavitation is; one way to stave off its onset would be to have more static pressure on the foil, so deeper is better. The deeper down the foil is, the smoother the ride should be.

But of course this means you have to have struts that are the depth you want plus the height of the waves. I estimate that they can get pretty long in the water and not add a lot of drag area, if they are well-contoured for streamlining. A few meters submerged maybe.

But then...

In defence of land-based aircraft, Winkle Brown wrote off one of the Saro flying boat fighters when he landed into a log or something.

Yep. Hidden snags can be deadly for any seaplane; if your strategy involves sinking hydrofoils six or ten feet under the surface, you are more likely to dredge up snags that more conventional floatplanes/boat hulls might skate right over and never notice.

This is why you'd only plan to put down in cleared "fields," and regard any impulsive landing elsewhere as an emergency option.

Or in more modern times and for a big, flush operation like an airline or a military expedition, carry RPVs that can land and scout out the water for you before committing the big plane to a particular stretch of landing zone.
 
No lie, I giggled a little at that one.




....giggled a lot at that.

Well, it would be hard not to.

Anyways, I have always held some fascination for that particular engine arrangement, when you have a push-pull system. Whats the reasoning behind it?
 
In the case of the Dornier X, it resolves the question of how to install 12 engines within the wingspan. Otherwise, it cuts down on drag. The Do-335 also had push-pull. Low drag and no, or negated torque reaction. The Cessna 337 cited engine out safety without assymetrical effects. The biggest problem was bad aerodynamics around the rear propellor, as encountered by the Fokker D.23.

mooredornier.jpg
 
The push-pull two-engine, two prop nacelle was a thing in the 1920s. A number of British seaplanes also used it. Some German projects, notably the bigger Diesel powered flying boats, used it into the 1940s.

Barnes Wallis incorporated it in the R100 airship, which was the successful one of the two British Empire airship projects. His governing notion (aside from making a successful and large, larger than any other as of its date, airship) was to economize as much as possible, with an eye toward future mass production. The paired-engine nacelles, six engines in three cars, saved a fair amount of weight. They also helped out with streamlining, which Wallis also pursued in balanced moderation.

For an airship, it also makes sense (in a way it does not typically in an airplane) to be able to shut down some of your engines when they are not needed, so as to be able to save fuel. (A big airship also allows mechanics access to the engines for light maintenance, so shutting one down while it is tuned up and checked is a nice option, extending the time before one has an unexpected breakdown.) I forget whether Wallis actually did incorporate gearing and clutching that would permit one of the two engines (ideally, either one) to power both props. If not, that would have been an obvious next step.

The next step after that would be to consolidate the two props into a contraprop set, for an airship this would be best as aft, pusher props. When both engines run, each would run one of the two props of the set, and when one wanted to shut down one, the other could by shifting some gears run both. Coupling the two together in nearly the same plane would improve overall efficiency.

I think that there was some small version of that same effect (each prop counters the other's swirl, thus recovering power that would otherwise be wasted) with the extended pairs. But a lot less.

If you have a 12-engine flying boat, it too might have benefited from shutting down some engines while still driving all props. However I think one reason 12 engines were installed was that 1920s aero engines were not extremely reliable, so probably they got some of that effect without asking for it.

(Kind of like the post-WWII Lockheed Constellation, with 4 very advanced--and unfortunately balky--high-horsepower radials. Given the tendency of the engines to fail unexpectedly, wags termed the Connie "the best trimotor ever made!")
 
:confused:You're telling me that you burn the same amount of fuel going mach 1.8 as going mach .9? I'd have to see some figures to believe that.
The propulsive efficiency for simple turbojet engines is better at supersonic speeds, and the higher speed across the ground makes up for the poor L/D ratio of supersonic flight.

The real efficiency problem with SSTs is that they need to be much more strongly built than subsonic aircraft. The empty weight per seat of a Concorde was more than three times that of a 747.
 
What I'm basically trying to say is that I don't think a surviving Ottoman Empire would need to build drastically different long-haul airliners from OTL western airliners. Not to say there wouldn't be a lot of local bush aviation from rugged strips, but like OTL that would probably be the province of the military and oil industry.
Why then did the OTL Soviet Union have markedly different airliner design from the West?

Another Soviet oddity was the Yakovlev Yak-40 -- this aircraft was a jet designed for really bad runways, where Western countries would use only propeller planes. On the other hand it certainly wasn't a fast jet...
 
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