Canada Wank (YACW)

[Dan1988]

At least en français you get it easier - just use "Duc de Daman, Diu, et Nagar Haveli" or "Duc de Daman" for short. In other words, a translation of the (Canadian) English.

But the two bits were "Daman and Diu/Damão e Diu" and"Dadrá e Nagar-Aveli", so wouldn't the combined name be the two first bits, namely "Daman and Dadra/Damão e Dadrá" ??
If Nagar Haveli is the more important portion of the second possession, then why is it second in the title.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I don't understand.

Edit: besides, isn't Daman and Dadra more alliterative and nice sounding? Of course, I have no clue what sounds better em Português

 

[Lusitania]

At least en français you get it easier - just use "Duc de Daman, Diu, et Nagar Haveli" or "Duc de Daman" for short. In other words, a translation of the (Canadian) English.

His title should be the Duke of Daman and Diu. Duque de Damão e Diu.

The reason it that Nagar Haveli and Dadrá were in reality part of Damão and not independent part like Damão or Diu.

Now for Principe Guilherme´s Portuguese education

"Now that it had been determined that Prince Guilherme was no longer in the British line of Sucession and would instead receive a new Portuguese title he decided that he wanted to learn the language. While the actual location of his and his soon to be wife's future residence still not decided he did want to spend some time in his new lands. He also felt it a need to be able to speak the language. So while he was being sent to Canadá he requested that a friend of his the marquês de Penafiel be allowed to serve with him so that he could practice his Portuguese. His goal was to suprise his fiance and speak to her in her native language."

next up the complicated negotiations of the British-Portuguese actual border for the Daman-Diu borders.

 

[Dan1988]

His title should be the Duke of Daman and Diu. Duque de Damão e Diu.

The reason it that Nagar Haveli and Dadrá were in reality part of Damão and not independent part like Damão or Diu.

OK, so qu'est-ce que c'est la traduction en français? Juste « Duc de Daman et Diu »?

Now for Principe Guilherme´s Portuguese education

Wait a minute - since William is going to be a member of the Canadian peerage, he also needs to have his name translated into French. (After all, he IS getting married in the Notre-Dame Cathedral in Montréal.) Le Prince Guillaume, peut-être?

"Now that it had been determined that Prince Guilherme was no longer in the British line of Sucession and would instead receive a new Portuguese title he decided that he wanted to learn the language. While the actual location of his and his soon to be wife's future residence still not decided he did want to spend some time in his new lands. He also felt it a need to be able to speak the language. So while he was being sent to Canadá he requested that a friend of his the marquês de Penafiel be allowed to serve with him so that he could practice his Portuguese. His goal was to suprise his fiance and speak to her in her native language."

next up the complicated negotiations of the British-Portuguese actual border for the Daman-Diu borders.

Hmm, an interesting idea. That would probably make it easier for him to learn French in order to speak with his Francophone colleagues (unless Guillaume already has competence in French).

 

[Gonzaga]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As part of the extended wedding negotiations, the Portuguese point out that they have lost a valuable marriage of state due to a British Prince – and it would only be fair that they be recompensed some how. They suggest that the British deed to them a small parcel of land on the west coast of India, connecting their current holdings of [/FONT]Damão ([FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Daman and Diu) and [/FONT]Dadrá e Nagar-Aveli, possibly giving them a bit more of the coast, too. In return, they will make William Duque de Damão e Dadrá, giving him a Portuguese royal dukedom. People point out that there is a nice symmetry here – especially given the precedent of Indian land for marriage (cf Bombay as Catherine Braganza dowry).

Edit: two lusophones tell me it should be «Duque de Damão e Nagar-Aveli», so that's what it is, now.

Just a doubt about the bolded part: didn't India at the time belonged to the EIC rather than to the crown? Could the British government legally give lands that belonged to a Company as a "downry" of a royal marriage? Unless I missed some earlier butterfly regarding it, of course.

 

[Lusitania]

Just a doubt about the bolded part: didn't India at the time belonged to the EIC rather than to the crown? Could the British government legally give lands that belonged to a Company as a "downry" of a royal marriage? Unless I missed some earlier butterfly regarding it, of course.

While India did belong to the British East India Company, the British government had in effect passed several laws that put the company under the British government control. So it was perfectly reasonable for the British government to advise the company to do its bidding. The governors of the company lived in London and for the most part would be in agreement to give the little spec of land for the betterment of the empire.

 

[Dan1988]

Hmm - interesting, o seigneur Lusitanie. Couldn't the government take over the EIC at this point, or was it too convenient?

 

[Lusitania]

Hmm - interesting, o seigneur Lusitanie. Couldn't the government take over the EIC at this point, or was it too convenient?

Well my fellow Canuck (or should I say wannabee) I do believe that the British government always did have the means to do so but did it have the political will. It took the Indian rebellion for it to act and end the company's control over India. It was simmilar in Canada when it was founded the Hudson Bay company had no political or military means to resist Canadas anexation of its territory. As long as the company received a "just" payment it had to hand the deed over to the property.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Actually William will be known in UK and Canada as William Duke of Daman and Nagar Haveli. While for all the Portuguese He is known as Guilherme Duque de Damão e Nagar-Aveli.

His title should be the Duke of Daman and Diu. Duque de Damão e Diu.

The reason it that Nagar Haveli and Dadrá were in reality part of Damão and not independent part like Damão or Diu.

OK, now I'm confused. Did you change your mind or am I missing something?


How about "Duque de Damão", not 'and' anything?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Just a doubt about the bolded part: didn't India at the time belonged to the EIC rather than to the crown? Could the British government legally give lands that belonged to a Company as a "downry" of a royal marriage? Unless I missed some earlier butterfly regarding it, of course.

While India did belong to the British East India Company, the British government had in effect passed several laws that put the company under the British government control. So it was perfectly reasonable for the British government to advise the company to do its bidding. The governors of the company lived in London and for the most part would be in agreement to give the little spec of land for the betterment of the empire.

Technically, the EIC might have been able to resist, but they weren't that stupid. I'm not sure what the legal status was exactly, but I don't doubt that Government pressure can make the EIC behave on this.

In particular, Britain is heading in a slightly different direction than OTL. iOTL, the Victoria era morality was priggish observance of formal behaviour, iTTL, we've got a bit more concern about real morality - the deaconesses are both a symptom and a moving force behind this. So far, the divergence isn't huge, and it's not going to make the British Empire sit down and have everybody sing Kumbayah in a campfire circle while smoking peace pipes. But. Questions are being raised in Parliament about the EIC (earlier than OTL), and the EIC wants to keep its minders happy.

I haven't even talked about the Far East yet....

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Now for Principe Guilherme´s Portuguese education
...
His goal was to suprise his fiance and speak to her in her native language."

Wait a minute - since William is going to be a member of the Canadian peerage, he also needs to have his name translated into French. (After all, he IS getting married in the Notre-Dame Cathedral in Montréal.) Le Prince Guillaume, peut-être?



Hmm, an interesting idea. That would probably make it easier for him to learn French in order to speak with his Francophone colleagues (unless Guillaume already has competence in French).

I would bet that William spoke English and German natively, and grew up with at least schoolboy Latin, Greek and French. Oh, and Welsh, of course. French, being the language of diplomacy, he'd probably be reasonably competent in it. Once he's engaged to Antonia, he probably gets a tutor so he can learn that language.

Given English, Latin and French, Portuguese shouldn't be hard at all. The hardest part of learning foreign languages is picking up the first one.

Remember he spent some months in Portugal, and talked regularly, not only with Antonia (those conversations will have been in both languages, as she has to learn English, too), but with her friends and family. Actually, some of their theology conversations may have been in Latin...

English royals weren't (and aren't) unilingual... What his ACCENT and possibly grammar are like, I don't know, (IIRC HRM Elisabeth OTL sounds as stilted in French as she does in English, but she's not just reading off a script). But William should have no trouble making himself understood both in Lisbon and in Montreal. (Of course, learning Joual or Outtaouais, that could be tougher.)

 

[Lusitania]

OK, now I'm confused. Did you change your mind or am I missing something?


How about "Duque de Damão", not 'and' anything?

Okay to clarify the Portuguese Indian posesions were classified as Goa, Damão and Diu. Since Dadrá and Nagar-Aveli were part of Damão. If here we double or tripple the amount of land belonging to Damão it can either be just Damão or a combination of Damão and Nagar-Aveli. Now the reason that it is not Dadrá is because it is a small little territory. Why then is it first it could be because of many reason it is between Damão and Nagar-Aveli or it could be because it starts with a "D" you pick.

Now for exact borders I have actually been thinking and since you brought up the need for the company to keep on the governments good books I was thinking of writting a short post on the negotiations and the final results. I was thinking that since Guiltherme's status and the Portuguese Kings daughter it cannot be a mere spec but more of sizeable holding.

Also since Damão and Diu are across from it each other I think the Portuguese Prime Minister will try to also get a bit more dirt attached to Diu in the bargain. I have an idea of how it should look like let me know if you want my input on the negotiations and the final result.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Okay to clarify the Portuguese Indian posesions were classified as Goa, Damão and Diu. Since Dadrá and Nagar-Aveli were part of Damão. If here we double or tripple the amount of land belonging to Damão it can either be just Damão or a combination of Damão and Nagar-Aveli. Now the reason that it is not Dadrá is because it is a small little territory. Why then is it first it could be because of many reason it is between Damão and Nagar-Aveli or it could be because it starts with a "D" you pick.

OK, thanks. So... Damão in regular speech, and possibly "Damão e Nagar-Aveli" formally? Or maybe just Damão for all uses, so as not to upset any of the minor territories involved...?

Now for exact borders I have actually been thinking and since you brought up the need for the company to keep on the governments good books I was thinking of writting a short post on the negotiations and the final results. I was thinking that since Guiltherme's status and the Portuguese Kings daughter it cannot be a mere spec but more of sizeable holding.

Also since Damão and Diu are across from it each other I think the Portuguese Prime Minister will try to also get a bit more dirt attached to Diu in the bargain. I have an idea of how it should look like let me know if you want my input on the negotiations and the final result.

At this point, I doubt that I want to do much on the negotiations. If you want to make a stab at it, PM me a rough draft? I have already included chunks that were (essentially) written by both Foresterab and RPW@Cy...

As for size.... Daman District is apparently 130km^2 and Dadra_and_Nagar_Haveli is 487km^2 , Goa is 3700 km^2. I don't think that the new territory would end up being as big as Goa (which is larger than I had thought), but should at least double in size.

I don't remember where I saw the map, but there is princely territory just a bit inland, IIRC, which one would want to avoid. Personally, I think a chunk of land that covers all the isolated bits of territory, and probably gives the Portuguese a bit more sea coast is appropriate. IIRC there's a range of hills/mountains there that might make a nice border inland? (Again, I think the princely state was at/behind that line).

Anyway. I wouldn't mind a map, but I don't think we NEED one either. Drawing definite lines helps the reader see where things are - but runs into problems when someone says 'Ah, but that town there was an exclave of ..'. So, either way....

 

[stevep]

In particular, Britain is heading in a slightly different direction than OTL. iOTL, the Victoria era morality was priggish observance of formal behaviour, iTTL, we've got a bit more concern about real morality - the deaconesses are both a symptom and a moving force behind this. So far, the divergence isn't huge, and it's not going to make the British Empire sit down and have everybody sing Kumbayah in a campfire circle while smoking peace pipes. But. Questions are being raised in Parliament about the EIC (earlier than OTL), and the EIC wants to keep its minders happy.

Dathi

I would agree with what you say but draw the opposite conclusion. Got the impression it was the Victorian morality that meant the government was more inclined to interfere on matters other than those directly affecting the operation of the company and running of its empire. Hence, with a less priggish monarchy and society, there might be less desire to send missionaries and interfere with things like the mixed race relationships in India for instance.

Definitely agree that the EIC will do basically what the government wants. Think OTL they had already lost a lot of their privileges and monopolies by this point and ultimately, for all their wealth and military power, they know their position depends on the support of British power. They might be unhappy however if the land transferred has a valuable economic aspect, either in itself or say by controlling an important trade route. More significantly I haven't checked any reference sources but is the land being talked about actually in EIC hands? If it means dispossessing a native ruler of part of his lands it could cause problems.

Steve

 

[Lusitania]

I would bet that William spoke English and German natively, and grew up with at least schoolboy Latin, Greek and French. Oh, and Welsh, of course. French, being the language of diplomacy, he'd probably be reasonably competent in it. Once he's engaged to Antonia, he probably gets a tutor so he can learn that language.

Given English, Latin and French, Portuguese shouldn't be hard at all. The hardest part of learning foreign languages is picking up the first one.

Remember he spent some months in Portugal, and talked regularly, not only with Antonia (those conversations will have been in both languages, as she has to learn English, too), but with her friends and family. Actually, some of their theology conversations may have been in Latin...

English royals weren't (and aren't) unilingual... What his ACCENT and possibly grammar are like, I don't know, (IIRC HRM Elisabeth OTL sounds as stilted in French as she does in English, but she's not just reading off a script). But William should have no trouble making himself understood both in Lisbon and in Montreal. (Of course, learning Joual or Outtaouais, that could be tougher.)

Yes but I actually think that being English his studies would of been towards French, German and maybe Italian. I doubt that British royals would of regarded the need to speak Portuguese. The Portugues royals as well as most high educated people would of learned at least English/French and Spanish.

So while he was in Portugal he would of been able to comunicate using his English and to some lesser extent French. But saying that if I know French I can speak Portuguese is like saying that since I speak German I can speak English.

I think that since he was heir apparent and she was going to live in Britain his need for Portuguese would of been minimal. It would not of been completely out of character for another noble to accompany Guilherme in his travels or service in the wilds of Canada.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Yes but I actually think that being English his studies would of been towards French, German and maybe Italian. I doubt that British royals would of regarded the need to speak Portuguese. The Portugues royals as well as most high educated people would of learned at least English/French and Spanish.

O, quite. He wouldn't have learned any Portuguese until the wedding negotiations (initially) started. That would still have been a few years before these recent posts - say starting in 1835-6?

So while he was in Portugal he would of been able to comunicate using his English and to some lesser extent French.

I will admit I hadn't considered that Antonia and some of the other nobles would already have a reasonable grasp of English. But surely not all of them would have. Given that he spent a few months there, I think his Portuguese by the end of the trip was probably quite understandable, even if no one would mistake him for a native speaker.

I had a friend who went to Germany for schooling (a music school in Detmold) - without having studied the language. While the school taught in English, the town was German. By the end of the first several months, Ray could survive in town with his fractured German. [He prided himself on the fact that, while no one took him for a native German, they tended to assume he was Dutch or Scandinavian, rather than North American.]

But saying that if I know French I can speak Portuguese is like saying that since I speak German I can speak English.

mmm... Sort of. The orthography is more consistent between French and Portuguese than between German and English. But, yes, if you know English (and a couple of other languages), German isn't very tough at all, comparatively.

I know that I, personally, can read Spanish in my specialities (naming practices, mathematics) based on my knowledge of French and Latin. I certainly can't read novels in it, but then I never studied the language, either. So I think suspect learning Portuguese should be relatively easy. It should be easier to learn Portuguese (knowing French) than French (knowing Portuguese), because French is the most evolved* Romance language.

*by evolved, I mean number of sound and other shifts from the original Latin. 'Debased' would be a synonym I don't say 'most changed' because Romanian has a huge Slavic influence.

I think that since he was heir apparent and she was going to live in Britain his need for Portuguese would of been minimal.

Diplomatically, yes. Speaking your wife's native language of is a GOOD thing, though

It would not of been completely out of character for another noble to accompany Guilherme in his travels or service in the wilds of Canada.

In general, yes. Although, he's semi-incognito and another nobleman in tow would rather 'blow his cover'. So, if the story had gone a different direction, it would have made sense, but it didn't.

 

[Wet Coast]

But saying that if I know French I can speak Portuguese is like saying that since I speak German I can speak English.

I understood it to be more that learning your fifth language is far, far easier than learning your second language and its even easier if you already know a related language.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I understood it to be more that learning your fifth language is far, far easier than learning your second language and its even easier if you already know a related language.

Exactly. Yes

 

[Lusitania]

I understood it to be more that learning your fifth language is far, far easier than learning your second language and its even easier if you already know a related language.

Exactly. Yes

Being a multi-language person myself I agree but learning a language in a school setting is never the same as fully being fluent in it and being able to express your feelings and thoughts. There is also the fact that unless you live with the language you can never really understand its nuances.

Studying English or another language can never substitute the experience of living the language.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Being a multi-language person myself I agree but learning a language in a school setting is never the same as fully being fluent in it and being able to express your feelings and thoughts. There is also the fact that unless you live with the language you can never really understand its nuances.

Studying English or another language can never substitute the experience of living the language.

O, indeed. My idea is that William will have basic Portuguese when he arrives (enough to make himself understood), and isn't immediately fluent.

 

[Lusitania]

O, indeed. My idea is that William will have basic Portuguese when he arrives (enough to make himself understood), and isn't immediately fluent.

Is your plan for him to leave Canada and being incognito and go directly to Portugal or will his cover be blown and he will stick around in British Empire for a while?