Canada Wank (YACW)

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

In addition to the bit about 'King of England' being head of the Church, there's also the fact that Scots law didn't get completely subsumed into English law, and they kept their own pound (although it was identical to the British one). So obviously, there was still a 'Scotland' of some sort....



Anyway. Does the following work better:

" [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Canada is now rapidly approaching the size of Scotland, which had historically been its own kingdom even if now it is subsumed into the United Kingdom. Thus it seems entirely reasonable to raise Canada to the status of a Kingdom,"[/FONT]

 

[Thande]

Errr... Quite. I'm so used to ERII being 'Queen of Canada' and 'Queen of Australia', etc., etc., that I rather assumed that 'King of England' and 'King of Scotland' still existed as formal titles after the Union, in addition to 'King of the United Kingdom'.

No, not since 1707. In fact there was a brief politically correct fad in the 18th century where the government HAD to refer to them only as "North Britain and South Britain" and you weren't allowed to say Scotland or England in official correspondence.

It goes like this - King of England, Scotland and Ireland (1603 to 1707) then King of Great Britain and Ireland (ie of the Kingdom of Great Britain and of the Kingdom of Ireland, 1707 to 1801) then King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (all one kingdom, 1801 to Southern Irish independence around the 1920s), and nowadays King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Note the term United Kingdom was not used before 1801.

 

[stevep]

Dathi

So Canada gets a crown. That will drive another wedge between it and the US. Not to mention since the latter are still keeping a star on their flag for Louisiana, making that a Duchy [not a Grand Duchy like Tejas?] will probably provoke a few mutterings.

It could have some effects on other parts of the Americas? If there are other monarchies out there - forget about Mexico, I'm reading too many TLs and the old brain is failing - then not too great a problem. However if other states that have broken away from Spain have largely become republics [if in name only] it might cause some fear about a revival of monarchism in some quarters.

Steve

 

[RPW@Cy]

No, not since 1707. In fact there was a brief politically correct fad in the 18th century where the government HAD to refer to them only as "North Britain and South Britain" and you weren't allowed to say Scotland or England in official correspondence.

It goes like this - King of England, Scotland and Ireland (1603 to 1707) then King of Great Britain and Ireland (ie of the Kingdom of Great Britain and of the Kingdom of Ireland, 1707 to 1801) then King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (all one kingdom, 1801 to Southern Irish independence around the 1920s), and nowadays King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Note the term United Kingdom was not used before 1801.

In addition to Thande's points, there's another problem with creating a Canadian crown at this time - Ireland. This is happening at the height of O'Connell's Repeal Campaign (as in repeal the 1801 Act of Union, thereby recreating a separate kingdom of Ireland) - in the 1841 election the Repeal Association won 24.8% of Irish votes and 20 seats and in the 1847 election they won 43.6% of the vote and 36 seats - this in an election system that was severely biased against Repeal's natural supporters. The UK government adopting a course of action that basically boils down to "Canada can have a crown, but Ireland can't" will go down very badly indeed - revolution would not be impossible. Especially if an argument based on population size is being used - after all, Canada's population is only about half that of Ireland (in the pre-famine years, at least - the worst effects of which you just might have ameliorated somewhat by bringing Canadian grain on line earlier)...

This doesn't preclude the UK government from acting insensitively of course, but it will be very dangerous for them to do.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Dathi

So Canada gets a crown. That will drive another wedge between it and the US. Not to mention since the latter are still keeping a star on their flag for Louisiana, making that a Duchy [not a Grand Duchy like Tejas?] will probably provoke a few mutterings.

It could have some effects on other parts of the Americas? If there are other monarchies out there - forget about Mexico, I'm reading too many TLs and the old brain is failing - then not too great a problem. However if other states that have broken away from Spain have largely become republics [if in name only] it might cause some fear about a revival of monarchism in some quarters.

Steve

Tejas is OFFICIALLY a 'Duchy', the Duke insists on it. However, any piece of paper that he doesn't see calls it a 'Grand Duchy'....

Yes, Tejas is going to want to engage in rank inflation, but events will intervene.

The BNA provinces/colonies are demanding titles (in a one-upsmanship kind of way). They aren't being imposed from the top in any way. More particularly, they are very constitutional monarchies. I'm sure that factions throughout Latin America are afraid of most everything, but I doubt many worry much about it. Indeed, I think that some WELCOME the idea of monarchy - if only so THEY can be crowned king...

Note that New England is NOT joining in the rush. They are clearly still a republic, and have every intention of staying so, even if they are BFF with Britain. Besides, Brazil is a monarchy iTTL and iOTL, did that wierd out the Columbians or Argentinians?

 

[Thande]

In addition to Thande's points, there's another problem with creating a Canadian crown at this time - Ireland. This is happening at the height of O'Connell's Repeal Campaign (as in repeal the 1801 Act of Union, thereby recreating a separate kingdom of Ireland) - in the 1841 election the Repeal Association won 24.8% of Irish votes and 20 seats and in the 1847 election they won 43.6% of the vote and 36 seats - this in an election system that was severely biased against Repeal's natural supporters. The UK government adopting a course of action that basically boils down to "Canada can have a crown, but Ireland can't" will go down very badly indeed - revolution would not be impossible. Especially if an argument based on population size is being used - after all, Canada's population is only about half that of Ireland (in the pre-famine years, at least - the worst effects of which you just might have ameliorated somewhat by bringing Canadian grain on line earlier)...

This doesn't preclude the UK government from acting insensitively of course, but it will be very dangerous for them to do.

That's a good point, but what about the counter-example of Hanover being made a kingdom in 1815?

 

[Dan1988]

Note that New England is NOT joining in the rush. They are clearly still a republic, and have every intention of staying so, even if they are BFF with Britain. Besides, Brazil is a monarchy iTTL and iOTL, did that wierd out the Columbians or Argentinians?

Well, on the issue of Uruguay . . .

But other than that, I can see your reasoning for not having New England going in that direction - even though it would be nice to have them rejoin the Empire.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

In addition to Thande's points, there's another problem with creating a Canadian crown at this time - Ireland. This is happening at the height of O'Connell's Repeal Campaign (as in repeal the 1801 Act of Union, thereby recreating a separate kingdom of Ireland) - in the 1841 election the Repeal Association won 24.8% of Irish votes and 20 seats and in the 1847 election they won 43.6% of the vote and 36 seats - this in an election system that was severely biased against Repeal's natural supporters. The UK government adopting a course of action that basically boils down to "Canada can have a crown, but Ireland can't" will go down very badly indeed - revolution would not be impossible. Especially if an argument based on population size is being used - after all, Canada's population is only about half that of Ireland (in the pre-famine years, at least - the worst effects of which you just might have ameliorated somewhat by bringing Canadian grain on line earlier)...

This doesn't preclude the UK government from acting insensitively of course, but it will be very dangerous for them to do.

Ireland will be the next kingdom. Of course, questions like that are one reason why it's taking a handful of years to negotiate the change in status. Louisiana raised the issue in 1837, the actual elevations in rank don't happen until the mid-40s (partly because stuff happens in the interim - yes, I need to get writing again).

Oh, and one of the reasons the Potato famine was so horrible was because the British had moved toward a 'free-trade' 'laissez-faire' policy. Here, they're still more 'Imperial preference', which will also have some good results.

The fact that Canada is growing in size and importance, and is majority Catholic and functioning, is doing wonders for Irish rights in Ireland. Not huge practical changes YET, but in more ways than just 'kingdom'ness, the Irish can say - look, they have X, we want it, too, and London is going to find it harder and harder to say no.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

That's a good point, but what about the counter-example of Hanover being made a kingdom in 1815?

Of course, that's a different kettle of fish, as Hanover was never a British possession, it was in a simple union of crowns. Moreover, wasn't it a Continental act (Congress of Vienna or HRE?) that made Hanover a Kingdom, not a British one...?

 

[Nugax]

Ireland will be the next kingdom. Of course, questions like that are one reason why it's taking a handful of years to negotiate the change in status. Louisiana raised the issue in 1837, the actual elevations in rank don't happen until the mid-40s (partly because stuff happens in the interim - yes, I need to get writing again).

Oh, and one of the reasons the Potato famine was so horrible was because the British had moved toward a 'free-trade' 'laissez-faire' policy. Here, they're still more 'Imperial preference', which will also have some good results.

The fact that Canada is growing in size and importance, and is majority Catholic and functioning, is doing wonders for Irish rights in Ireland. Not huge practical changes YET, but in more ways than just 'kingdom'ness, the Irish can say - look, they have X, we want it, too, and London is going to find it harder and harder to say no.

Also of not is that the spread of the arrival Great Famine species of Potato Blight is very non-deterministic (much like most epidemics, see Jareds alt-HIV in DoD) and one can easily have it turn up in Europe and Ireland anywhere from coming over with the first potatos to never arriving at all (in the as yet unwritten part of my Blue Star Rising TL it hits in the 1860-70s and thus is much worse, producing an Australian Republic before 1930 among other downstream effects).

If you want a nicer history for 19th Ireland the easist IMO is to have the Gorta Mór happen in the 1820s or 1830s when the population situtation is a million or so less acute and Britain is decidedly not 'laissez-faire'. This would also create an earlier shift of population to Canada and Oceania when the US is at its most anti-immigrant after loosing 1812 which has compounding effects later on...

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Also of not is that the spread of the arrival Great Famine species of Potato Blight is very non-deterministic (much like most epidemics, see Jareds alt-HIV in DoD) and one can easily have it turn up in Europe and Ireland anywhere from coming over with the first potatos to never arriving at all (in the as yet unwritten part of my Blue Star Rising TL it hits in the 1860-70s and thus is much worse, producing an Australian Republic before 1930 among other downstream effects).

Actually, one major factor was the weather in ?1845?, which was VERY favourable for the potato blight. Other years thereafter with better weather didn't have nearly as much problem with the blight. Certainly, the strain of blight would have been disastrous had it been around in 1816, say, but I'm going to assume the general weather stays the same for a while yet.

 

[Nugax]

Actually, one major factor was the weather in ?1845?, which was VERY favourable for the potato blight. Other years thereafter with better weather didn't have nearly as much problem with the blight. Certainly, the strain of blight would have been disastrous had it been around in 1816, say, but I'm going to assume the general weather stays the same for a while yet.

Well yes the 1846 weather helped its spread once it reached Ireland, but my point is that the pathogen didn't arrive in Europe till 1842. It's entirely plausible to move that latter date around and thus have 1846 be blight-free. Throughout the 1820s and 1830s you had the entire year failing in Irish disticts but it didn't matter as they were less dependent at that point - if you have the blight spread earlier it will do much less damage, and spur decreased growth rates and emmigration rather than the 'Great Hunger'.

 

[Reddog794]

Just to mention, that with the high rate of growth in the Canadas, I would suspect a drive to at least unite the Maritimes into one Grand Duchy of Acadia/Nova Scotia. It was around this time that the merchant class and lower orders were rumbling for reform on that order. Heck iOTL the Charlottetown conference was set up for Maritime Union first... before the Canadians got the Maritimers drunk.

Big big fan of this TL, out of curiousity, what happened to Brock?

 

[Dan1988]

Just to mention, that with the high rate of growth in the Canadas, I would suspect a drive to at least unite the Maritimes into one Grand Duchy of Acadia/Nova Scotia. It was around this time that the merchant class and lower orders were rumbling for reform on that order. Heck iOTL the Charlottetown conference was set up for Maritime Union first... before the Canadians got the Maritimers drunk.

I actually like that idea - so long as Newfoundland is kept separate since it doesn't really fit.

 

[Dan1988]

Well yes the 1846 weather helped its spread once it reached Ireland, but my point is that the pathogen didn't arrive in Europe till 1842. It's entirely plausible to move that latter date around and thus have 1846 be blight-free. Throughout the 1820s and 1830s you had the entire year failing in Irish disticts but it didn't matter as they were less dependent at that point - if you have the blight spread earlier it will do much less damage, and spur decreased growth rates and emmigration rather than the 'Great Hunger'.

The problem is that at the time, most of Europe was suffering from the potato famine - IIRC, there were riots in the German states due to the failure of the potato crop.

 

[Nugax]

The problem is that at the time, most of Europe was suffering from the potato famine - IIRC, there were riots in the German states due to the failure of the potato crop.

*Sigh* yes, which is why I prefaced my comment with "the blight arriving in Europe". Obviously if it doesnt there won't be those problems with Germany either...

 

[Dan1988]

*Sigh* yes, which is why I prefaced my comment with "the blight arriving in Europe". Obviously if it doesnt there won't be those problems with Germany either...

True.

Still, I wonder if there are any more updates.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

True.

Still, I wonder if there are any more updates.

Ja. Sorry. I keep getting distracted on Wiki....

There WILL be updates, but I won't promise exactly when.

I've got to figure out American politics in this time period and stuff, and that requires thinking. We're packing to head out to the in-laws for Thanksgiving so I may have more (or less) time then.... Anyway.

 

[Dan1988]

Ja. Sorry. I keep getting distracted on Wiki....

That's okay - I perfectly understand.

There WILL be updates, but I won't promise exactly when.

I've got to figure out American politics in this time period and stuff, and that requires thinking. We're packing to head out to the in-laws for Thanksgiving so I may have more (or less) time then.... Anyway.

Makes sense. Just one brief caveat - please don't turn it into another Decades of Darkness. That's all I ask for.

 

[Spitfiremk1]

Please keep this TL going... Please....