BMC no-merger sanity options?

[Peg Leg Pom]

Perhaps BMC could keep producing and developing Lambretta's after 1972, when Otl British Leyland Motor Corporation shut them down as a gimmick with no future. A bad move when you consider the number of scooters sold world wide every year.

 

[phx1138]

There seems to be a misunderstanding here, because elements of the MG ADO21 design were in fact carried over to the production TR7 compared to the earlier Triumph Bullet prototypes without mixing messages.

What would be intended for the ATL EX234 and MGC successor would follow a similar route just with different influences compared to OTL and including an Rover SD1-like front.

I look at the EX234 design & think mid-engined, & a front-engine/RWD platform with that styling strikes me as mixed message.

Which is another reason why Jaguar would be better off as the big fish in an ATL Leyland Motors had things turned out differently, sure it would appear to suck for Triumph however the latter via Standard shares history along with Coventry Climax and so could still play a role while allowing Jaguar to move further upmarket.

I don't see Triumph being impacted too much, given the market segment they're in, compared to Jag, which I see as well up-market from that. I can see how Triumph management might disagree...

That is an eventual goal though the like the mainstream marques it would also be the case initially that Cadillac, Lincoln and Imperial in Europe would differ on both sides of the Atlantic until a bit later when the environment is right for further integration.

Another positive would be that it also provides a way for Vauxhall/Opel (eventually Chevrolet), Ford and Chrysler to resist the trend towards switching to FWD on both sides of the Atlantic a bit longer at least for their luxury marques (with the exception of 1-Series/A-Class/A3 class models).

Agreed. I'm less hostile to FWD, even for a luxury marque, I think. However, one other prospect crosses my mind: with greater exposure to the likes of the Audi Quattro (if not to Group B & C racing fans as buyers...), Cad & Lincoln both might see high-performance (for them, at least) AWD models.

The Type 180-derived V8 and V12 engines would be more of a European phenomena, though could see it being imported to North America.

It strikes me just possible M-B, Cad, & Lincoln (if nobody else) try V12s as a result. That's another possible impact of more European exposure: the U.S. marques would more directly face the 12cyl XJs.

OTOH Chrysler in the US could have done a better job at developing their non-European engines from early Slant-6 derived Slant-4 petrols/diesels that are replaced by early/mid-70s (reputedly Slant-6 based) Chrysler 2.2/2.5 4-cylinder and Chrysler 3.3/3.8 60-degree V6 engines (plus 4-cylinder and V6 descendants) as well as early/mid-60s LA V6 engines (plus all-alloy versions), which would have allowed Chrysler HQ to better prepare in downsizing their cars as well as giving the Australian branch more options to work with.

Additionally ATL Chrysler HQ could have also followed the example of OTL Bristol Cars, who managed to equipped their LA V8-powered Bristol Type 603 S3 Brigand and Bristol Type 412 Beaufighter with Rotomaster Turbochargers putting out roughly 330-350+ hp, which would have provided Chrysler with its own analogues of the 3.8 Buick V6 Turbo and 4.9 Pontiac 501 Turbo.

IMO, Chrysler blew the opportunity to turn the Slant-6 into a real rocket, & later a serious import fighter in the U.S., not least by avoiding the Chrysler Oz input. Something Dart-sized with a 300+hp inline 6 in 1973-4 (or so), when the big V8s were dropping power like crazy & getting creamed by high gas prices? The 'cuda/Challenger could have curbstomped the 'stang II. (Put it on the Arrow platform?) Or Ford could've answered with a *Scorpio-engined model not based on the Pinto. (Unabashed plug. )

It likely filters back to Fiat and quickly spreads to Fiat/Autobianchi, SEAT, NSU-Fiat/Neckar and Yugo/Zastava though not sure about Ladas however (given the lack of a suitably-adapted model below the 124-based Lada).

Despite still only featuring OHVs this ATL 1050cc+ to 1343cc Fiat 100 Series derived / half-related engine would still be lighter and more compact compared to the Fiat 128 SOHC engine (or lower-displacement Fiat 124 Series engines), yet it would eventually be replaced in the European market by the Fiat FIRE units prior to ceasing production in 2000 as in OTL.

(I get such a kick out of the idea of Scottish FIATs.)

Would probably not go that far given Cosworth's OTL involvement with the Chevrolet Cosworth Vega, yet at least it saves Lotus having to use Jensen-Healey or another company to further develop their underdeveloped Slant-Four engine on the cheap.

I'd forgotten about the Vega. That's another option. And if Ford is developing a better V6 (& probably a better Mustang II), the Vega will have to be better--a Lotus Vega works. Even moreso if Chrysler is leading with a Slant-6 (smaller) 'cuda.

This has gotten a bit far afield from BMC...

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Perhaps BMC could keep producing and developing Lambretta's after 1972, when Otl British Leyland Motor Corporation shut them down as a gimmick with no future. A bad move when you consider the number of scooters sold world wide every year.

That is definitely an option, otherwise ignorant on Lambretta apart from its early shared history with Vespa.

I look at the EX234 design & think mid-engined, & a front-engine/RWD platform with that styling strikes me as mixed message.

Do not see that on EX234 at all, rather its Pininfarina styling has hints of the master coachbuilder’s FIAT 124 Sport Spider and Alfa Romeo Duetto, while at the same time incorporating the sawn-off ‘Kamm’ tail that would later appear on the Series 2 Alfa Romeo Duetto / Spider.

The only possible issue with the existing prototype's styling would be that is appears to be largely derivative and not something that had could be easily carried over into the mid/late-1970s onwards without a more aerodynamic rebody that is shared with other ATL MGs.

I don't see Triumph being impacted too much, given the market segment they're in, compared to Jag, which I see as well up-market from that. I can see how Triumph management might disagree...

At least Triumph get the pleasure of seeing an enlarged properly developed Stag/Saab V8 displacing 4-5-litres expediently powering Jaguars prior to the ATL AJ-V8.

Agreed. I'm less hostile to FWD, even for a luxury marque, I think. However, one other prospect crosses my mind: with greater exposure to the likes of the Audi Quattro (if not to Group B & C racing fans as buyers...), Cad & Lincoln both might see high-performance (for them, at least) AWD models.

4WD would not be out of the question as both BMW and IIRC even Mercedes-Benz produced 4WD variants of their RWD saloons in OTL.

It strikes me just possible M-B, Cad, & Lincoln (if nobody else) try V12s as a result. That's another possible impact of more European exposure: the U.S. marques would more directly face the 12cyl XJs.

Cadillac looked at a V12 project during the 1960s as mentioned in another post, the only POD in ATL would be it being merged with an mid/late-60s version of the GM 60-degree V6.

Otherwise unsure if Ford/Lincoln also looked at developing a new post-war V12 engine during the 1960s in OTL, the OTL 60-degree Essex and Cologne V6s as well as a merged ATL Essex/Cologne V6 would still likely be too heavy to be a suitable basis for a V12 engine (especially since the V6s themselves were said to be pretty heavy in OTL).

IMO, Chrysler blew the opportunity to turn the Slant-6 into a real rocket, & later a serious import fighter in the U.S., not least by avoiding the Chrysler Oz input. Something Dart-sized with a 300+hp inline 6 in 1973-4 (or so), when the big V8s were dropping power like crazy & getting creamed by high gas prices? The 'cuda/Challenger could have curbstomped the 'stang II. (Put it on the Arrow platform?) Or Ford could've answered with a *Scorpio-engined model Another automotive AHC: Make a better Mustang II']not based on the Pinto[/URL]. (Unabashed plug. )

Would agree on the Slant-6 needing more development, at the same time Chrysler really needed a pair of V6s by the late-60s to early-70s to allow it to easily downsize like Ford and GM did in parallel to the Slant-6 - one a Slant-6 based 60-degree V6 (like the 3.3/3.8) and another an early V6 version of the LA V8.

(I get such a kick out of the idea of Scottish FIATs.)

In many ways the Fiat 850 / Seat 850 and OTL Hillman Imp already share many similarities so it is not too far removed in a butterfly-netted scenario that still somewhat historically rhymes with OTL.

This has gotten a bit far afield from BMC...

Agreed

 

[phx1138]

That is definitely an option, otherwise ignorant on Lambretta apart from its early shared history with Vespa.

Agreed on both counts. My concern would be a dilution of focus. Not all companies are able to be good in more than one field, so hiring really, really good management to run the moto side would be crucial. Otherwise, you've just buggered a company that could survive--or, at least, could long enough to be taken over by somebody already in that business.

Do not see that on EX234 at all

That is the root of the disagreement, I think. It's not that the EX234 is wrong in any way, just not what I think of as front/RWD.

its Pininfarina styling has hints of the master coachbuilder’s FIAT 124 Sport Spider and Alfa Romeo Duetto, while at the same time incorporating the sawn-off ‘Kamm’ tail that would later appear on the Series 2 Alfa Romeo Duetto / Spider.
The only possible issue with the existing prototype's styling would be that is appears to be largely derivative and not something that had could be easily carried over into the mid/late-1970s onwards without a more aerodynamic rebody that is shared with other ATL MGs.

I'm seeing almost none of the Duetto, myself.

At least Triumph get the pleasure of seeing an enlarged properly developed Stag/Saab V8 displacing 4-5-litres expediently powering Jaguars prior to the ATL AJ-V8.

A Stag that doesn't get screwed would be a good thing. Would the Triumph V8 go into the Jag? I remain dubious, all considered. (Honestly, I'd far rather Jad improved the V12.)

4WD would not be out of the question as both BMW and IIRC even Mercedes-Benz produced 4WD variants of their RWD saloons in OTL.

It strikes me a bit of a long shot for any U.S. company, but it gets more likely with more exposure. I don't expect anything like an Allante rally car, but an AWD Allante in the Monte Carlo Rally? Just maybe. (And I've always liked the Allante--& GM buggered it by not getting to the Northstar til the end, when they should have started there. )

Cadillac looked at a V12 project during the 1960s as mentioned in another post, the only POD in ATL would be it being merged with an mid/late-60s version of the GM 60-degree V6.

Yep, & couldn't manage to get it to fit the Eldo sideways, rejecting the longitudinal mounting Olds would end up using... (The proposed V12 Eldo hood was a bit longer than I liked; packaging lessons from the Mini would have done Cad, & GM, good.) Using the 215 Buick V8/252 Buick V6 as a basis (so all aluminum) would help the weight issue.

Otherwise unsure if Ford/Lincoln also looked at developing a new post-war V12 engine

Not AFAIK.

Would agree on the Slant-6 needing more development, at the same time Chrysler really needed a pair of V6s by the late-60s to early-70s to allow it to easily downsize like Ford and GM did in parallel to the Slant-6 - one a Slant-6 based 60-degree V6 (like the 3.3/3.8) and another an early V6 version of the LA V8.

Not opposed to a Chrysler V6; could be they take Triumph's approach: chop a Slant-6 in half, & join two halves at the crank.

In many ways the Fiat 850 / Seat 850 and OTL Hillman Imp already share many similarities so it is not too far removed in a butterfly-netted scenario that still somewhat historically rhymes with OTL.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

That is the root of the disagreement, I think. It's not that the EX234 is wrong in any way, just not what I think of as front/RWD.

I'm seeing almost none of the Duetto, myself.

Not sure how the layout and styling influences of EX234 could be interpreted any other way unless you are thinking of the Harris Mann styled MG ADO21.

A Stag that doesn't get screwed would be a good thing. Would the Triumph V8 go into the Jag? I remain dubious, all considered. (Honestly, I'd far rather Jad improved the V12.)

The existing Stag/Saab V8 was capable of displacing 2500-4000cc, with the Saab Slant-Fours growing beyond 2-litres to in some instances even displacing closer to 2.3-2.5-litres. It does not take much imagination to see Jaguar using an enlarged 4-litre+ version of the Stag/Saab V8 as a starting point for their own V8 engine to slot below the ATL Jaguar V12 and above any Jaguar Six*.

*- Either an all-alloy largely short-stroke ATL 2.6-3.5-litre Jaguar XK6 (2.6-3.0 being short-stroke versions) with eventually 24-valves and further Weslake tuning (plus fuel-injection) or an early properly developed Jaguar V12-based 60-degree V6 or Jaguar AJ6.

It strikes me a bit of a long shot for any U.S. company, but it gets more likely with more exposure. I don't expect anything like an Allante rally car, but an AWD Allante in the Monte Carlo Rally? Just maybe. (And I've always liked the Allante--& GM buggered it by not getting to the Northstar til the end, when they should have started there. )

Unlikely to see a US luxury marque presence in rallying, though Ford and Vauxhall-Opel did produce 4WD cars along with Chrysler in OTL.

Yep, & couldn't manage to get it to fit the Eldo sideways, rejecting the longitudinal mounting Olds would end up using... (The proposed V12 Eldo hood was a bit longer than I liked; packaging lessons from the Mini would have done Cad, & GM, good.) Using the 215 Buick V8/252 Buick V6 as a basis (so all aluminum) would help the weight issue.

In such a scenario GM would have been better off producing an earlier (Chevrolet Small Block V8 based) GM 90-degree V6 which together with the CERV I-based all-alloy Chevrolet Small-Block V8 engines used in the Vega V8 prototype, would have butterflied away the need for GM to acquire back the Buick V6 (and 215 Bucik V8) engines.

Would say a better basis for an mid/late-60s-to-early-70s all-alloy engine family that included 60-degree V6 and V12 engines would be a production version of the unbuilt L-10 4-cylinder engine originally planned for the Vega (thereby butterflying away the OTL Vega 2300/L-11 engine issues) with elements of the later (60-degree V6-based) GM 122 4-cylinder engine as well as scope for a similar maximum 2.5-litre displacement as the Iron Duke. Which in total would also open up the possibility for a more modern ATL compact V8 successor to the 215 Buick V8 displacing around 3320-4378cc (possibly up to 4574-4942cc) from just prior to the 1973 Fuel Crisis.

Not AFAIK.

That just leaves the Ford Cleveland V8 in the absence of a then contemporary road-going V12 project, which based on the Curbside Classic 2 part articles apparently could have been a contender (part 1 / part 2).

Not opposed to a Chrysler V6; could be they take Triumph's approach: chop a Slant-6 in half, & join two halves at the crank.

Thought that is what they basically did to create the OTL 3.3/3.8-litre 60-degree V6 given it together with the 2.2-.2.5-litre 4-cylider was already said to be Slant-6 based.

 

[phx1138]

Not sure how the layout and styling influences of EX234 could be interpreted any other way unless you are thinking of the Harris Mann styled MG ADO21.

I don't know what to tell you...

The existing Stag/Saab V8 was capable of displacing 2500-4000cc, with the Saab Slant-Fours growing beyond 2-litres to in some instances even displacing closer to 2.3-2.5-litres. It does not take much imagination to see Jaguar using an enlarged 4-litre+ version of the Stag/Saab V8 as a starting point for their own V8 engine.

If you accept the theory Jag management deliberately designed the XJs (& E-type?) to make it impossible for (wider) V8 to fit...

Unlikely to see a US luxury marque presence in rallying, though Ford and Vauxhall-Opel did produce 4WD cars along with Chrysler in OTL.

Oh, I know an Allante Rallye (or Continental RS) is pretty much ASB.

In such a scenario GM would have been better off producing an earlier (Chevrolet Small Block V8 based) GM 90-degree V6 which together with the CERV I-based all-alloy Chevrolet Small-Block V8 engines used in the Vega V8 prototype, would have butterflied away the need for GM to acquire back the Buick V6 (and 215 Bucik V8) engines.

Would say a better basis for an mid/late-60s-to-early-70s all-alloy engine family that included 60-degree V6 and V12 engines would be a production version of the unbuilt L-10 4-cylinder engine originally planned for the Vega (thereby butterflying away the OTL Vega 2300/L-11 engine issues) with elements of the later (60-degree V6-based) GM 122 4-cylinder engine as well as scope for a similar maximum 2.5-litre displacement the Iron Duke. Which in total would also open up the possibility for a more modern ATL compact V8 successor to the 215 Buick V8 displacing around 3320-4378cc (possibly up to 4574-4942cc) from just prior to the 1973 Fuel Crisis.

A better Vega, & an earlier, better 60deg V6? Sign me up. Throw in a more-compact V8, for the Celebritys (& clones)? Even better.

That just leaves the Ford Cleveland V8 in the absence of a then contemporary road-going V12 project, which based on the Curbside Classic 2 part articles apparently could have been a contender (part 1 / part 2).

I haven't gotten to that part, yet. (I got distracted by the Oz Falcon & some other stuff there. ) I'll take your word for it in the meantime.

Thought that is what they basically did to create the OTL 3.3/3.8-litre 60-degree V6 given it together with the 2.2-.2.5-litre 4-cylider was already said to be Slant-6 based.

And here I thought it was my smart idea... ( )

 

[Masked Grizzly]

If you accept the theory Jag management deliberately designed the XJs (& E-type?) to make it impossible for (wider) V8 to fit...

That is true yet none of the non-Jaguar people were willing to risk verifying Jaguar management's claims (likely knowing their influence within the company and resistance to the notion of using an already made American-based OHV V8 that could have potentially and irreparably diluted, damaged and cheapened the marque's prestige), also Jaguar in ATL would be in a position to have some role in using an enlarged 4-litre+ to 5-litre version of the Triumph/Saab V8 as a starting point for their own engine project (and probably carrying over the architecture of the Jaguar V12 engine as well as the remains of the stillborn V12-based 60-degree V8 prototype engines).

A better Vega, & an earlier, better 60deg V6? Sign me up. Throw in a more-compact V8, for the Celebritys (& clones)? Even better.

It makes sense as GM drew lessons they previously learned from their experience with aluminum with the the CERV project and 215 BOP V8 that involved aluminum for the Vega engine for the 1970s, the fact they went about cheapening the Vega engine by not approving the L-10 originally planned for the Vega is down to them and not the Vega itself.

This ATL all-alloy GM 4-cylinder, 60-degree V6, compact (215 BOP-like) 90-degree V8 and 60-degree V12 engine family together with the existing Chevrolet Small Block V8 and early/mid-1960s GM 90-degree V6 (with all-alloy versions as well as related better designed alternatives to the OTL Pontiac V8 Turbo and Oldsmobile V6-V8 diesel/turbodiesel engines), could have served as a vehicle for GM to help integrate its domestic North American engine range.

ATL all-alloy GM North American engine family would roughly resemble the following:

4-cylinder (Vega L-10 / GM 122 / Iron Duke) = 1660- 2474cc putting out 70-159+ hp (sans ATL Vega Turbo)
60-degree V6 = 2490-3711cc putting out 105-238+ hp
90-degree V8 = 3320-4942cc putting out 140-318+ hp
60-degree V12 = 4980-7422cc putting out 210-476+ hp

It would also be complemented what can only be described as a properly-developed 60s to early-70s Opel-developed 850-1600cc precursor to the GM Family 1 engine at the lower end of GM North America's (and possibly Australia/etc) model range, which IIRC was mentioned in an article on Vauxpedia and powered the OTL Brazilian version of the Chevrolet Chevette in 1599cc form.

And here I thought it was my smart idea... ( )

What is more surprising would be the fact Chrysler considered such engines yet were only pushed to belatedly producing them out of desperation rather than any cost-effective forward planning like Ford and GM did to some degree in OTL.

Had they done so earlier, Chrysler could have avoided so many of its seemingly self-inflicted problems that almost led it to bankruptcy in OTL.

 

[phx1138]

resistance to the notion of using an already made American-based OHV V8 that could have potentially and irreparably diluted, damaged and cheapened the marque's prestige

I'm not saying Jag wasn't right to be dubious OTL. I do have some doubts TTL they wouldn't still resist any V8 that's not entirely in-house.

stillborn V12-based 60-degree V8 prototype engines

Now that is more like it. (Not to mention improving the existing V12, which IMO would be a good idea.

the fact they went about cheapening the Vega engine ...is down to them and not the Vega itself.

No question there. Trying to "build down to a price" was pretty stupid.

This ATL all-alloy GM 4-cylinder, 60-degree V6, compact (215 BOP-like) 90-degree V8 and 60-degree V12 engine family together with the existing Chevrolet Small Block V8 and early/mid-1960s GM 90-degree V6 (with all-alloy versions as well as related better designed alternatives to the OTL Pontiac V8 Turbo and Oldsmobile V6-V8 diesel/turbodiesel engines), could have served as a vehicle for GM to help integrate its domestic North American engine range.

I'd agree with that, I think. Do I understand correctly you mean the 215-based V8 wouldn't be aluminum? I'd suggest using the knowledge gained from the 215 project could (should!) have gone into an aluminum Chevy small-block that could sell at a reasonable option price (rather than the insane ZL-1s ).

ATL all-alloy GM North American engine family would roughly resemble the following:

4-cylinder (Vega L-10 / GM 122 / Iron Duke) = 1660- 2474cc putting out 70-159+ hp (sans ATL Vega Turbo)
60-degree V6 = 2490-3711cc putting out 105-238+ hp
90-degree V8 = 3320-4942cc putting out 140-318+ hp
60-degree V12 = 4980-7422cc putting out 210-476+ hp

It would also be complemented what can only be described as a properly-developed 60s to early-70s Opel-developed 850-1600cc precursor to the GM Family 1 engine at the lower end of GM North America's (and possibly Australia/etc) model range, which IIRC was mentioned in an article on Vauxpedia and powered the OTL Brazilian version of the Chevrolet Chevette in 1599cc form.

I'd agree with that, except to say the upper capacity for the V6s & V8s should be a bit higher: 3.8 or 4.0 V6, 5.5 or 5.7 V8.

I'd also offer the V6 as an option in the T-car (Chevette clones)--provided it'll fit under the hood. (An aluminum 90deg V6, akin the OTL Chevy, would.) Of course, that presumes the styling isn't nearer the Cavalier Z26...

What is more surprising would be the fact Chrysler considered such engines yet were only pushed to belatedly producing them out of desperation rather than any cost-effective forward planning like Ford and GM did to some degree in OTL.

Had they done so earlier, Chrysler could have avoided so many of its seemingly self-inflicted problems that almost led it to bankruptcy in OTL.

Yeah. Not like there's not plenty of stupid to go around in corporate management--& not just BMC.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I'm not saying Jag wasn't right to be dubious OTL. I do have some doubts TTL they wouldn't still resist any V8 that's not entirely in-house.

It is likely they would not based on the fact the architecture of this ATL engine would carry over much of the ATL Jaguar V12, using only an enlarged version of the ATL Triumph Stag/Saab 90-degree V8 as a starting point with assistance of course by Leyland/Jaguar owned Coventry Climax.

It is also worth mentioning the OTL historical ties of SS Cars (SS being short for Standard Swallow) / Jaguar, Triumph via Standard and Coventry Climax already had in the pre-war era.

Now that is more like it. (Not to mention improving the existing V12, which IMO would be a good idea.

Jaguar accepted a 60-degree V8 would never be smooth as a 90-degree V8 and abandoned this V12-based derivative in OTL.

I'd agree with that, I think. Do I understand correctly you mean the 215-based V8 wouldn't be aluminum? I'd suggest using the knowledge gained from the 215 project could (should!) have gone into an aluminum Chevy small-block that could sell at a reasonable option price (rather than the insane ZL-1s ).

No. Rather the lessons learned from the 215 BOP V8 would be applied to a similar all-alloy V8 design based on an ATL Vega L-10 engine.

The ATL Chevrolet Small Block V8 would spawn an earlier mid/late-60s non-alloy version of the GM 90-degree V6, with both also forming the basis of possibly optional all-alloy versions based on a production version of the CERV-based engine used in the OTL Vega V8 prototype.


Going back to ATL Scottish-based Fiat-derived carmaker Argyll, it also occurred to me the company would have somewhat better industrial relations compared to Rootes at Linwood/etc given Fiat's ties to Lada (along with Italian Communists) and the popularity of low-priced Soviet / Eastern Bloc cars in the north of the UK, yet doubt they would make use of Russian steel (and thus potentially making Argyll comparable to NSU-FIat / Neckar as producing better built Fiat-based cars).

 

[phx1138]

It is likely they would not based on the fact the architecture of this ATL engine would carry over much of the ATL Jaguar V12, using only an enlarged version of the ATL Triumph Stag/Saab 90-degree V8 as a starting point with assistance of course by Leyland/Jaguar owned Coventry Climax.

That sounds near enough what I'd imagine would go over well. I was thinking they'd reject something amounting to the OTL Stag V8.

It is also worth mentioning the OTL historical ties of SS Cars (SS being short for Standard Swallow) / Jaguar, Triumph via Standard and Coventry Climax already had in the pre-war era.

Different, IMO, when they fall under one "roof".

Jaguar accepted a 60-degree V8 would never be smooth as a 90-degree V8 and abandoned this V12-based derivative in OTL.

I knew there was a reason... Recall is faulty today.

No. Rather the lessons learned from the 215 BOP V8 would be applied to a similar all-alloy V8 design based on an ATL Vega L-10 engine.

The ATL Chevrolet Small Block V8 would spawn an earlier mid/late-60s non-alloy version of the GM 90-degree V6, with both also forming the basis of possibly optional all-alloy versions based on a production version of the CERV-based engine used in the OTL Vega V8 prototype.

Honestly, if TTL's GM is building a standard alloy SBC, I don't see a need for an iron V6. (Well...truck block, maybe--but a strong enough alloy block might work there, too.) And if GM's a touch smarter, the alloy V6 (229ci? 262ci? Maybe even a 283 {4x3.75"} ? ) could go in a (less-compromised) Vega (maybe also retaining the X-body idea, so also Buick & Olds options).

Going back to ATL Scottish-based Fiat-derived carmaker Argyll, it also occurred to me the company would have somewhat better industrial relations compared to Rootes at Linwood/etc given Fiat's ties to Lada (along with Italian Communists) and the popularity of low-priced Soviet / Eastern Bloc cars in the north of the UK, yet doubt they would make use of Russian steel (and thus potentially making Argyll comparable to NSU-FIat / Neckar as producing better built Fiat-based cars).

I can easily imagine the Argyll-FIATs being better. (Distinctive, certainly, just as the Neckars were.) Maybe more important, they could displace FIATs in UK (not sure the effect on FIAT's bottom line, but seems likely a wash). More than that, they could displace Ladas & Yugos, which got popular ('80s?) in UK. They could (maybe) also gain export sales in the U.S. Lada never could, & FIAT didn't, & maybe also (& IMO more probable) displace the Lada & Yugo in Canada. (Malcolm Bricklin importing Argylls, & actually succeeding?) That also, just, suggests Delorean would have a harder time getting HMG on board--presuming he's still angling to build his own car TTL in the first place.

To go back to BMC & the A40 hatchback idea, two things: would that lead to more hatchbacks being built generally (because I don't recall 3drs being common until the mid-'70s), & would it (through the Mini) lead to a "hot hatch" segment sooner?

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Different, IMO, when they fall under one "roof".

They along with Walter Hassan, Harry Mundy and Harry Weslake all pretty much had intertwined histories that would have made integration under one roof at ATL Leyland a fairly straightforward process and that is without even mentioning the Coventry Climax-based engines used by Rootes for the Imp and unbuilt Swallow protoype (that along with related derivatives would be built in ATL).

Honestly, if TTL's GM is building a standard alloy SBC, I don't see a need for an iron V6. (Well...truck block, maybe--but a strong enough alloy block might work there, too.) And if GM's a touch smarter, the alloy V6 (229ci? 262ci? Maybe even a 283 {4x3.75"} ? ) could go in a (less-compromised) Vega (maybe also retaining the X-body idea, so also Buick & Olds options).

No, basically ATL GM expediently develops an early/mid-1960s GM 90-degree V6 upon selling both the Buick V6 and 215 Buick V8 engine designs to Rover. It later makes use of all-alloy in parallel to the CERV-derived V8 used in the Vega V8 prototype for the ATL Vega and other cars.

That in turn butterflies away GM trying to buy back the Buick V6 from AMC (formerly Kaiser-Jeep) and attempting the same with the 215 Buick V8 from BL in OTL.

I can easily imagine the Argyll-FIATs being better. (Distinctive, certainly, just as the Neckars were.) Maybe more important, they could displace FIATs in UK (not sure the effect on FIAT's bottom line, but seems likely a wash). More than that, they could displace Ladas & Yugos, which got popular ('80s?) in UK. They could (maybe) also gain export sales in the U.S. Lada never could, & FIAT didn't, & maybe also (& IMO more probable) displace the Lada & Yugo in Canada. (Malcolm Bricklin importing Argylls, & actually succeeding?) That also, just, suggests Delorean would have a harder time getting HMG on board--presuming he's still angling to build his own car TTL in the first place.

From the 1960-1970s the ATL FWD Arygll-Fiats would be approximately producing locally built versions of the following:

- Fiat 126p NP - Replacing a locally built 4-seater version of the Autobianchi Bianchina that featured 2-cylinder engines up to 594-652cc (plus 38 hp 690cc Abarth engines), it is an early-70s Scottish-built production version of the OTL FWD Polski Fiat 12p NP prototype (in 3-door hatchback form): It would be powered by the OTL 23-30+ hp 594-704 air-cooled 2-cylinder though would be converted to water-cooled much earlier and stretched to around 750-800cc (the latter an in-house production version of the 37-43 hp 794cc Giannini Fiat 126 GPA 800 - the former being the same output as the 37 hp 689.5cc engine in the classic Fiat Abarth 695 SS), with the larger engine at the front opening up the possibility of making use of the 30-70+ hp 767-1050cc+ Fiat 100 Series engines (or later on even possibly a ~35+ hp ~750cc+ 3-cylinder versions of the Fiat FIRE unit similar to what was used in the OTL Citroen ECO 2000 SL 10 concept).

A 4-inch increase in wheel as on the OTL Polski Fiat 126p Kombi and Polski Fiat 126p Long prototypes also opens the door to a potential albeit unlikely 5-door hatchback variant. Another unlikely variant of the Argyll-Fiat 126p NP is partly inspired by the OTL 38 hp 546cc 1984 Mitsubishi Minica Turbo and 41 hp 544cc 1985 Subaru Rex Turbo would be a limited-run 45-60 hp turbocharged variant of the ATL water-cooled 704-794cc 2-cylinder engine.

- Tipo 07 (see page 275) - Replacing a locally-built Fiat 600-derived car akin to the 2/4-door Fiat 600 Canta Berlina meets enlarged Autobianchi Bianchina (with 633-843cc engines), it is a Scottish-built production version of the OTL small FWD Tipo 07 3-door hatchback prototype from NSU-Fiat/Neckar developed from 1958-1961: This ATL model would be powered by 30-58 hp 767-982cc Fiat 100 Series engines (possibly growing to as much as ~88+ hp 1343cc), prior to being replaced by the ATL 899-1343cc Autobianchi A112.

- Autobianchi Primula: Replacing a locally-built version of the Fiat 1100 that was equipped with 1300-1600cc engines derived from the larger Fiat 1300/1500. This ATL Primula was powered by 65-84 hp 1197-1585cc OHV Fiat 124 Series as well as possibly 79-107 hp 1438-1592cc Fiat Twin-Cam engines that may also utilize locally made ATL ~88+ hp 1343cc Fiat 100 Series-derived engines, prior to being replaced by 1100-1600cc versions of both the Fiat 127 and Fiat 128 (plus more stylish Yugo Skala-like hatchback).

- Fiat 123 E4 - Replacing a locally-built version of the Fiat 1100 that was equipped with 1300-1600cc engines derived from the larger Fiat 1300/1500. It is essentially a production version of the three-box saloon FWD prototype that lost out in favour of the Fiat 124, only to be later revived and updated as the Autobianchi A111 It would also be powered by 65-84 hp 1197-1585cc OHV Fiat 124 Series and possibly 79-107 hp 1438-1592cc Fiat Twin-Cam engines though may also utilize locally made ATL ~88+ hp 1343cc Fiat 100 Series-derived engines, as well as form the of basis of 5-door estate and possibly even 5-door fastback hatchback bodystyles (the latter derived from the Fiat 123 E1 prototype) prior to being replaced by a Fiat 131/Simca Alpine-sized 1300-2000cc FWD model (either based on an enlarged Fiat 128 or shruken Lancia Beta platform).

To go back to BMC & the A40 hatchback idea, two things: would that lead to more hatchbacks being built generally (because I don't recall 3drs being common until the mid-'70s), & would it (through the Mini) lead to a "hot hatch" segment sooner?

It would likely encourage other carmakers to similarly explore the layout much earlier compared to OTL with the likes of the Fiat 127, Peugeot 104 and Alfa Romeo Alfasud featuring hatchbacks from the outset.

Can see the Hot Hatch initiators being the ATL Mini in 1275 Cooper S form and ATL ADO16 in 1400-1600cc forms, those circumstances could also prompt the ATL Autobianchi Primula to quickly follow along with an earlier entry from the 1973-1974 Simca 1100 (plus a Hot Hatchback version of the ATL Simca 936 prototype) as well as influence Reliant to not only produce the Reliant Rebel 1600 GT prototype (but also make it a hatchback with scope for even more potent 1.6 Lotus Twin-Cam and 1.6 Cosworth BDA variants).

Even Triumph could have potentially joined in the Hot Hatch segment with right PODs and a suitable engine (at least if it is derived from the FWD Triumph 1300/1500)

 

[phx1138]

They along with Walter Hassan, Harry Mundy and Harry Weslake all pretty much had intertwined histories that would have made integration under one roof at ATL Leyland a fairly straightforward process and that is without even mentioning the Coventry Climax-based engines used by Rootes for the Imp and unbuilt Swallow protoype (that along with related derivatives would be built in ATL).

Limited conflict among executives in a British car company? Isn't that ASB? It's good to hear, tho.

No, basically ATL GM expediently develops an early/mid-1960s GM 90-degree V6 upon selling both the Buick V6 and 215 Buick V8 engine designs to Rover. It later makes use of all-alloy in parallel to the CERV-derived V8 used in the Vega V8 prototype for the ATL Vega and other cars.

That in turn butterflies away GM trying to buy back the Buick V6 from AMC (formerly Kaiser-Jeep) and attempting the same with the 215 Buick V8 from BL in OTL.

I was presuming no buyback, essentially because there would be no Buick V6 to begin with, TTL's GM/Chevy V6 taking its place. The real question for me was (is), does GM have the courage (or tech savvy) to go all-alloy from the start, or do they drop the alloy V6/V8 (for the same reasons as the 215 OTL), then go back to them? If I had my way, it'd be all-alloy all the way.

Rover ending up with the Buick V6, too, has its own interesting butterflies. (V6 Land Rover? Seems likely to replace the inline-6 in the P5 & P6, too. Maybe in the TR7/8 & Acclaim.)

From the 1960-1970s the ATL FWD Arygll-Fiats would be approximately producing locally built versions of the following:

- Fiat 126p NP - Replacing a locally built 4-seater version of the Autobianchi Bianchina that featured 2-cylinder engines up to 594-652cc (plus 38 hp 690cc Abarth engines), it is an early-70s Scottish-built production version of the OTL FWD Polski Fiat 12p NP prototype (in 3-door hatchback form): It would be powered by the OTL 23-30+ hp 594-704 air-cooled 2-cylinder though would be converted to water-cooled much earlier and stretched to around 750-800cc (the latter an in-house production version of the 37-43 hp 794cc Giannini Fiat 126 GPA 800 - the former being the same output as the 37 hp 689.5cc engine in the classic Fiat Abarth 695 SS), with the larger engine at the front opening up the possibility of making use of the 30-70+ hp 767-1050cc+ Fiat 100 Series engines (or later on even possibly a ~35+ hp ~750cc+ 3-cylinder versions of the Fiat FIRE unit similar to what was used in the OTL Citroen ECO 2000 SL 10 concept).

A 4-inch increase in wheel as on the OTL Polski Fiat 126p Kombi and Polski Fiat 126p Long prototypes also opens the door to a potential albeit unlikely 5-door hatchback variant. Another unlikely variant of the Argyll-Fiat 126p NP is partly inspired by the OTL 38 hp 546cc 1984 Mitsubishi Minica Turbo and 41 hp 544cc 1985 Subaru Rex Turbo would be a limited-run 45-60 hp turbocharged variant of the ATL water-cooled 704-794cc 2-cylinder engine.

- Tipo 07 (see page 275) - Replacing a locally-built Fiat 600-derived car akin to the 2/4-door Fiat 600 Canta Berlina meets enlarged Autobianchi Bianchina (with 633-843cc engines), it is a Scottish-built production version of the OTL small FWD Tipo 07 3-door hatchback prototype from NSU-Fiat/Neckar developed from 1958-1961: This ATL model would be powered by 30-58 hp 767-982cc Fiat 100 Series engines (possibly growing to as much as ~88+ hp 1343cc), prior to being replaced by the ATL 899-1343cc Autobianchi A112.

- Autobianchi Primula: Replacing a locally-built version of the Fiat 1100 that was equipped with 1300-1600cc engines derived from the larger Fiat 1300/1500. This ATL Primula was powered by 65-84 hp 1197-1585cc OHV Fiat 124 Series as well as possibly 79-107 hp 1438-1592cc Fiat Twin-Cam engines that may also utilize locally made ATL ~88+ hp 1343cc Fiat 100 Series-derived engines, prior to being replaced by 1100-1600cc versions of both the Fiat 127 and Fiat 128 (plus more stylish Yugo Skala-like hatchback).

- Fiat 123 E4 - Replacing a locally-built version of the Fiat 1100 that was equipped with 1300-1600cc engines derived from the larger Fiat 1300/1500. It is essentially a production version of the three-box saloon FWD prototype that lost out in favour of the Fiat 124, only to be later revived and updated as the Autobianchi A111 It would also be powered by 65-84 hp 1197-1585cc OHV Fiat 124 Series and possibly 79-107 hp 1438-1592cc Fiat Twin-Cam engines though may also utilize locally made ATL ~88+ hp 1343cc Fiat 100 Series-derived engines, as well as form the of basis of 5-door estate and possibly even 5-door fastback hatchback bodystyles (the latter derived from the Fiat 123 E1 prototype) prior to being replaced by a Fiat 131/Simca Alpine-sized 1300-2000cc FWD model (either based on an enlarged Fiat 128 or shruken Lancia Beta platform).

I like it. I'd quibble only over the Tipo 07 version 5a; I like the Austria better (with the 4a second).

It would likely encourage other carmakers to similarly explore the layout much earlier compared to OTL with the likes of the Fiat 127, Peugeot 104 and Alfa Romeo Alfasud featuring hatchbacks from the outset.

Can see the Hot Hatch initiators being the ATL Mini in 1275 Cooper S form and ATL ADO16 in 1400-1600cc forms, those circumstances could also prompt the ATL Autobianchi Primula to quickly follow along with an earlier entry from the 1973-1974 Simca 1100 (plus a Hot Hatchback version of the ATL Simca 936 prototype) as well as influence Reliant to not only produce the Reliant Rebel 1600 GT prototype (but also make it a hatchback with scope for even more potent 1.6 Lotus Twin-Cam and 1.6 Cosworth BDA variants).

Even Triumph could have potentially joined in the Hot Hatch segment with right PODs and a suitable engine (at least if it is derived from the FWD Triumph 1300/1500)

(Tho, TBH, I'm not a fan of hatchbacks, particularly. I just won't deny anybody who wants something quicker. )

BTW, that history of FIAT is worth a read under any circumstances, especially to anybody who's interested in FIAT. Thx.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Limited conflict among executives in a British car company? Isn't that ASB? It's good to hear, tho.

With Lyons already being receptive to the idea of becoming part of Leyland Motors instead of BMC in OTL under certain circumstances (that would be realized in ATL), along with Leyland being considered as a domestic alternative to take over Rootes in place of Chrysler. Such a combine would be pretty straightforward and already have ties with each other.

I was presuming no buyback, essentially because there would be no Buick V6 to begin with, TTL's GM/Chevy V6 taking its place. The real question for me was (is), does GM have the courage (or tech savvy) to go all-alloy from the start, or do they drop the alloy V6/V8 (for the same reasons as the 215 OTL), then go back to them? If I had my way, it'd be all-alloy all the way.

That is just moving the goalposts now. Cannot see why GM would be prevented from building both the OTL Buick V6 (prior to seeing it to Rover/AMC) as well as an earlier ATL Small-Block V8-based 90-degree V6 from the early-1960s, the usage of GM's second attempt at all-alloy engines would begin with the introduction of the ATL Chevrolet Vega via the ATL L-10 and CERV-derived 5-litre Vega V8 prototype engines.

Rover ending up with the Buick V6, too, has its own interesting butterflies. (V6 Land Rover? Seems likely to replace the inline-6 in the P5 & P6, too. Maybe in the TR7/8 & Acclaim.)

Rover initially considered using the Buick V6 mainly for Land Rovers like Kaiser-Jeep did in OTL for Jeeps, it might find its way into sporting Healeys and other low-volume sportscar manufacturers as well as Range Rovers prior to eventually being used in Rover saloons in 24-valve DOHC fuel-injected form.

I like it. I'd quibble only over the Tipo 07 version 5a; I like the Austria better (with the 4a second).

Would probably opt for a variation of the Tipo 07 version 5a on the basis its styling would not look out of place along side the styling themes of the Fiat 124, at the same time it would be easy to embrace a shrunken Autobianchi Primula-based look.

BTW, that history of FIAT is worth a read under any circumstances, especially to anybody who's interested in FIAT. Thx.

Of course.

 

[phx1138]

With Lyons already being receptive to the idea of becoming part of Leyland Motors instead of BMC in OTL under certain circumstances (that would be realized in ATL), along with Leyland being considered as a domestic alternative to take over Rootes in place of Chrysler. Such a combine would be pretty straightforward and already have ties with each other.

Works for me. A better BMC & better BL (or BLMC?) would only be good for Britain, both in the car business & generally--not to mention for all the car buffs around.

That is just moving the goalposts now. Cannot see why GM would be prevented from building both the OTL Buick V6 (prior to seeing it to Rover/AMC) as well as an earlier ATL Small-Block V8-based 90-degree V6 from the early-1960s, the usage of GM's second attempt at all-alloy engines would begin with the introduction of the ATL Chevrolet Vega via the ATL L-10 and CERV-derived 5-litre Vega V8 prototype engines.

Not prevented, & in the era of GM's marques having more control over engine production, likely there would be a Buick V6 (& likely very similar OTL's, IMO). I'm not opposed to doing it, just not seeing the need--but that's probably driven (at least in part) by coming from the era of standard Corporate engines.

A second attempt at an alloy V8 that leads to an alloy-V8-engined Vega? (Taking as given the Vega isn't the poorly-engineered built-on-the-cheap project of OTL... )

I continue to think an alloy V6 T-car would be a good thing, too. (Better styling than OTL wouldn't hurt...)

Rover initially considered using the Buick V6 mainly for Land Rovers like Kaiser-Jeep did in OTL for Jeeps, it might find its way into sporting Healeys and other low-volume sportscar manufacturers as well as Range Rovers prior to eventually being used in Rover saloons in 24-valve DOHC fuel-injected form.

Now there's a reason for GM to have a Buick V6: being able to copy (licence?) a proven 24v DOHC FI top end... (Not to say GM couldn't do it, but, given execs are cheap... )

Would probably opt for a variation of the Tipo 07 version 5a on the basis its styling would not look out of place along side the styling themes of the Fiat 124, at the same time it would be easy to embrace a shrunken Autobianchi Primula-based look.

That's a matter of taste. I actually prefer the Primula to all of them (at least until about the '72 124 Spider).

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Works for me. A better BMC & better BL (or BLMC?) would only be good for Britain, both in the car business & generally--not to mention for all the car buffs around.

Agreed.

For simplicity's sake and to avoid confusion would provisionally dub the ATL carmakers something like BMC-Rover and Leyland-Jaguar.

Not prevented, & in the era of GM's marques having more control over engine production, likely there would be a Buick V6 (& likely very similar OTL's, IMO). I'm not opposed to doing it, just not seeing the need--but that's probably driven (at least in part) by coming from the era of standard Corporate engines.

Am assuming ATL Chevrolet would want their own 90-degree V6 engine earlier on instead of the Buick V6 similar to the number of V8s each marque had in OTL, just is just it along with the existing Chevrolet Small-Block V8 both would end up becoming more encompassing post-TASC/VOH (yet pre-Family) corporate engines at the larger end from the early-1970s by also forming the basis of all-alloy (via CERV 5-litre Vega V8), ATL Pontiac 501 Turbo and ATL Oldsmobile V6/V8 diesel (and turbodiesel) engines.

A second attempt at an alloy V8 that leads to an alloy-V8-engined Vega? (Taking as given the Vega isn't the poorly-engineered built-on-the-cheap project of OTL... )

The ATL Vega would be either derived from an earlier ATL post-TASC/VOH locally-built slightly LWB Ascona A/Manta (followed by Ascona B / Manta B) at 97+ inches or a smaller 100-inch wheelbase version of the Opel Rekord D / Vauxhall Victor FE platform, roughly in line with an ATL mk3-mk5 Cortina-based Ford Pinto.

GM appeared to consider giving the Vega the all-alloy 5-litre CERV-derived version of the Chevrolet Small Block V8 though nothing came of it in OTL.

I continue to think an alloy V6 T-car would be a good thing, too. (Better styling than OTL wouldn't hurt...)

It is a possibility instead of the T-car being used as a testbed for the 60-degree V6 in the early-1980s, also like the idea of North American versions being powered by early-70s 1400-1600cc Family I-precursors as well as an ATL 1800-2000cc+ all-alloy composite of the L-10 Vega engine meets GM 122 (and possibly Iron Duke) including a 2-litre Cosworth Chevette variant.

Now there's a reason for GM to have a Buick V6: being able to copy (licence?) a proven 24v DOHC FI top end... (Not to say GM couldn't do it, but, given execs are cheap... )

GM could have just commissioned Lotus to develop a 90-degree V6 analogue of the Lotus-developed LT5 or even an earlier version had Lotus and Vauxhall become more intertwined beyond the former using the Vauxhall Slant-4 (and planned V8) to accelerate development of its own Slant-4 / V8 project.

That's a matter of taste. I actually prefer the Primula to all of them (at least until about the '72 124 Spider).

Agreed on Tipo 07 featuring shrunken Primula styling.

 

[phx1138]

For simplicity's sake and to avoid confusion would provisionally dub the ATL carmakers something like BMC-Rover and Leyland-Jaguar.

Leyland-Jaguar, yes; BMC-Rover seems to over-emphasize Rover. (I don't have a better choice... ) In-TL, using BMC (& mentioning the badge-engineered variants, & omitting the ones dropped in-TL, at new model introductions) might do it.

Am assuming ATL Chevrolet would want their own 90-degree V6 engine earlier on instead of the Buick V6 similar to the number of V8s each marque had in OTL, just is just it along with the existing Chevrolet Small-Block V8 both would end up becoming more encompassing post-TASC/VOH (yet pre-Family) corporate engines at the larger end from the early-1970s by also forming the basis of all-alloy (via CERV 5-litre Vega V8), ATL Pontiac 501 Turbo and ATL Oldsmobile V6/V8 diesel (and turbodiesel) engines.

Yeah, & again, not opposing it. (For the record, I'm presuming you mean 301 Pontiac, the '70s V8, not a stretched 455. )

Aside: this would appear to mean the Olds diesels don't turn out to be dogs.

The ATL Vega would be either derived from an earlier ATL post-TASC/VOH locally-built slightly LWB Ascona A/Manta (followed by Ascona B / Manta B) at 97+ inches or a smaller 100-inch wheelbase version of the Opel Rekord D / Vauxhall Victor FE platform, roughly in line with an ATL mk3-mk5 Cortina-based Ford Pinto.

Looking at WP, the Ascona B from 1975 is about right as it was; all GM would have to do was make it LHD, & offer the Chevy V6 (alloy or not) as an option.

GM appeared to consider giving the Vega the all-alloy 5-litre CERV-derived version of the Chevrolet Small Block V8 though nothing came of it in OTL.

Yeah, I've seen pictures of a V8 prototype (provisional RPO Z23, IIRC); I don't recall mention of any CERV involvement, but I know almost nothing beyond what went in a photo caption...

That said, even an iron V6 in a Vega that's not a rustbucket would be good. If GM has the sense to follow TL-BMC's lesson, there would be a 3dr hatch, a 4dr, & a wagon from the start. Maybe, just maybe, it lasts long enough to see the same treatment as the GN/GNX Regal. (With OTL 262 or TTL 280ci-range V6, alloy or not.) An alloy V8 option, ever?

It is a possibility instead of the T-car being used as a testbed for the 60-degree V6 in the early-1980s, also like the idea of North American versions being powered by early-70s 1400-1600cc Family I-precursors as well as an ATL 1800-2000cc+ all-alloy composite of the L-10 Vega engine meets GM 122 (and possibly Iron Duke) including a 2-litre Cosworth Chevette variant.

I would start with a 1600, with optional 2000cc four & 225ci V6 (I like the idea of a Chevette ultimately getting 262 {OTL}, or 280ci-range {TTL}, V6 )

GM could have just commissioned Lotus to develop a 90-degree V6 analogue of the Lotus-developed LT5 or even an earlier version had Lotus and Vauxhall become more intertwined beyond the former using the Vauxhall Slant-4 (and planned V8) to accelerate development of its own Slant-4 / V8 project.

A closer Lotus-Vauxhall tie ending up with an LT5 variant works just fine for me. On all counts. (What that does for Vauxhall's V8, I really have no clue. )

One quick aside, here: GM importing/rebadging the Ascona as a Vega/Astre (& Skylark/Omega? {Which I'd do...}) seems to butterfly away the problems with the Firenza in Canada.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Leyland-Jaguar, yes; BMC-Rover seems to over-emphasize Rover. (I don't have a better choice... ) In-TL, using BMC (& mentioning the badge-engineered variants, & omitting the ones dropped in-TL, at new model introductions) might do it.

Am sure there are better alternative names though sticking it with atm to differentiate from them each other and to stress British Leyland never happened in this scenario.

Yeah, & again, not opposing it. (For the record, I'm presuming you mean 301 Pontiac, the '70s V8, not a stretched 455. )

Aside: this would appear to mean the Olds diesels don't turn out to be dogs.

Indeed, meant 301 Pontiac turbo.

And yes, the ATL Chevrolet 90-degree V6 and Small Block V8 diesels were not dogs in this TL.

Looking at WP, the Ascona B from 1975 is about right as it was; all GM would have to do was make it LHD, & offer the Chevy V6 (alloy or not) as an option.

Am sure there would be enough stretch in the Ascona A platform for it to grow to Ascona B dimensions in other markets and related Manta A models did receive limited-run inline-6 engines.

Yeah, I've seen pictures of a V8 prototype (provisional RPO Z23, IIRC); I don't recall mention of any CERV involvement, but I know almost nothing beyond what went in a photo caption...

It seems the Vega V8 prototype did indeed feature a CERV-based all-alloy version of the Small Block V8 engine, the idea being it and an optional all-alloy early 90-degree V6 would help atomize costs in tandem with the ATL L-10 4-cylinder / 60-degree V6 / compact V8 (215 BOP Successor)/ 60-degree V12 engine family.

That said, even an iron V6 in a Vega that's not a rustbucket would be good. If GM has the sense to follow TL-BMC's lesson, there would be a 3dr hatch, a 4dr, & a wagon from the start. Maybe, just maybe, it lasts long enough to see the same treatment as the GN/GNX Regal. (With OTL 262 or TTL 280ci-range V6, alloy or not.) An alloy V8 option, ever?

At best the hatchback would probably resemble the Vauxhall Magnum Sportshatch or enlarged T-Car inspired South African Chevrolet Firenza hatchback.

Vauxhall were apparently interested in such variants during the later OTL U-Car project.

Vauxhall U Car - Cavalier MK1 part-1

vauxpedianet.uk2sitebuilder.com

One quick aside, here: GM importing/rebadging the Ascona as a Vega/Astre (& Skylark/Omega? {Which I'd do...}) seems to butterfly away the problems with the Firenza in Canada.

Indeed the Firenza issues after butterflied away thereby allowing Vauxhall to integrate with Opel on its own terms compared to OTL (at least in terms of engines, exterior styling and unique versions of common platforms).

I would start with a 1600, with optional 2000cc four & 225ci V6 (I like the idea of a Chevette ultimately getting 262 {OTL}, or 280ci-range {TTL}, V6 )

A smaller engine would be necessary if it is to challenge the Japanese in North America at the lower end of the range.

A closer Lotus-Vauxhall tie ending up with an LT5 variant works just fine for me. On all counts. (What that does for Vauxhall's V8, I really have no clue. )

Envision the Vauxhall V8 petrol and diesel engines being produced and even used by Opel as GM Europe's own indigenous V8 up to the mid/late-1990s, before being replaced by a smaller version of the clean-sheet LS-based GM Small Block V8 as a starting point that features similarities in terms of displacement range (3.5-5.0-litres) and other elements (DOHC, etc) with both LT5 as well as the Northstar V8 (albeit reliable unlike the latter).

 

[phx1138]

Am sure there are better alternative names though sticking it with atm to differentiate from them each other and to stress British Leyland never happened in this scenario.

I have no doubt there are better names. I agree with your reasoning.

And yes, the ATL Chevrolet 90-degree V6 and Small Block V8 diesels were not dogs in this TL.

One thing occurred to me in that connection. It means Olds diesel-powered cars would be less available in wrecking yards, meaning California hot rodders (if not others) would have a harder time finding ones they could register as diesels & then stuff big blocks in (& thereby give the finger to CARB). (No, I'm not saying smog is a good thing... When the actual emissions aren't even measured... )

Am sure there would be enough stretch in the Ascona A platform for it to grow to Ascona B dimensions in other markets and related Manta A models did receive limited-run inline-6 engines.

I'm looking less at growth than in the original car being about the right size (equal OTL Vega) so it's not too small for the U.S. market but not too big to be a canyon carver (something OTL's Vega never was; TTL, with the alloy V6 & V8 options, it could be).

It seems the Vega V8 prototype did indeed feature a CERV-based all-alloy version of the Small Block V8 engine, the idea being it and an optional all-alloy early 90-degree V6 would help atomize costs in tandem with the ATL L-10 4-cylinder / 60-degree V6 / compact V8 (215 BOP Successor)/ 60-degree V12 engine family.

That makes sense. If TTL's GM gets there a different route, not through CERV, that's more than fine by me. If it also leads to interesting options, not least a V12-powered Eldo...

At best the hatchback would probably resemble the Vauxhall Magnum Sportshatch or enlarged T-Car inspired South African Chevrolet Firenza hatchback.

I don't have issues with the OTL Vega styling (mostly), just quality. (Something like about a '73-5 South African Viva HC wouldn't be out of the question.) I'm thinking TTL's T-car (Chevette & clones) styling is farther from OTL Vauxhaull/Chevy, which is a bit on the dull side, especially if there's a V6 option. (Similar styling for TTL's T-car & the Vega wouldn't hurt it. And a few of those 1450 proposals have a very Vega-esque feel; I really like the "dual chin scoop" look of the front end on one of them.)

A smaller engine would be necessary if it is to challenge the Japanese in North America at the lower end of the range.

I don't mean to say smaller shouldn't be available; I mean the base engine (given the U.S. market) should be a 1600, & (given TTL's GM is willing) the *Vega GT gets (at least) the 262 V6.

Envision the Vauxhall V8 petrol and diesel engines being produced and even used by Opel as GM Europe's own indigenous V8 up to the mid/late-1990s, before being replaced by a smaller version of the clean-sheet LS-based GM Small Block V8 as a starting point that features similarities in terms of displacement range (3.5-5.0-litres) and other elements (DOHC, etc) with both LT5 as well as the Northstar V8 (albeit reliable unlike the latter).

That works. I'd guess (hope) the "clean sheet" engine is also a reverse-oiler, like the third (fifth?) generation SBC.

Northstar makes me think: an aluminum 32v V8 (not to mention a 24v alloy V6) from the start means the Allante could be a real success. It also means the J-cars could get actual high-performance V6s. And the Beretta (geez, rename it, tho; what, Mario Puzo threatened to put a hit on somebody for suggesting the Corleone, or something?) clones could get at least a hot 24v V6, if not the 32v.

And that's not counting the Camaro, Firebird, & GN Regal (&, hopefully, a GN Monte, Cutlass, & Grand Am, too ), all of which look likely to be better for it.

*sigh* Better, quicker Minis in larger numbers, better Z26s, better GNRs... It makes me sad it didn't happen.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

One thing occurred to me in that connection. It means Olds diesel-powered cars would be less available in wrecking yards, meaning California hot rodders (if not others) would have a harder time finding ones they could register as diesels & then stuff big blocks in (& thereby give the finger to CARB). (No, I'm not saying smog is a good thing... When the actual emissions aren't even measured... )

Would say the rough benchmark for the ATL Chevrolet 90-degree V6 diesel/turbodiesel would be the Mercedes-Benz OM603 inline-6, ATL 100 hp (NA) / 150 (?) hp (turbodiesel) 225 Chrysler Slant-Six diesel/turbodiesel, the 150 hp 3.6 VM Motori diesel used in the OTL AMC Eagle (that was reputedly considered for use in Jaguars along with a counter-pitch by Steyr to Jaguar against the VM Motori diesel for their 150-160 hp inline-6 turbodiesel project being one of the first applications of pump jet direct injection in car engines long before Fiat brought the first direct injection Croma, with even Jaguar looking to the 5-cylinder Mercedes-Benz OM617 diesel as inspiration for a potential dieselized AJ6 engine in OTL).

It is a bit difficult to calculate the benchmark for the ATl Chevrolet Small Block V8-based diesel/turbodiesel compared to the OTL Oldsmobile V8 diesel, had the 3.5-litre Rover V8-based Project Iceberg diesel/turbodiesel been further developed and produced you are looking at figures of 100 hp (NA) and 125-150 hp (turbodiesel). However it would be until 1998-1999 when car-focused V8 diesels would become a thing with the 222 hp 3.3 V8 in the 1st gen Audi A8, 247+ hp 4.0 V8 in the Mercedes-Benz S-Class W220) and 235 hp 3.9 V8 in the BMW 7-Series E38.

I'm looking less at growth than in the original car being about the right size (equal OTL Vega) so it's not too small for the U.S. market but not too big to be a canyon carver (something OTL's Vega never was; TTL, with the alloy V6 & V8 options, it could be).

Am basically looking at an ATL Ascona A / Ascona B whose dimensions are comparable to the mk3-mk5 Ford Cortina (which would itself form the basis of the ATL Pinto).

That makes sense. If TTL's GM gets there a different route, not through CERV, that's more than fine by me. If it also leads to interesting options, not least a V12-powered Eldo...

The ideas learned in CERV, 215 BOP V8 and ATL commercially successful L-10 (meets GM 122) based 4/60-degree V6/compact 90-degree V8 / 60-degree V12 engine family could be applied to the ATL Chevrolet 90-degree V6 / Small Block V8 engines.

As for the ATL 60-degree V12 it depends on when it appears relative to the ATL Vega (the latter making use of smaller engines in the related engine family) and if it manages to survive through the fuel crisis 1970s.

That works. I'd guess (hope) the "clean sheet" engine is also a reverse-oiler, like the third (fifth?) generation SBC.

Northstar makes me think: an aluminum 32v V8 (not to mention a 24v alloy V6) from the start means the Allante could be a real success. It also means the J-cars could get actual high-performance V6s. And the Beretta (geez, rename it, tho; what, Mario Puzo threatened to put a hit on somebody for suggesting the Corleone, or something?) clones could get at least a hot 24v V6, if not the 32v.

And that's not counting the Camaro, Firebird, & GN Regal (&, hopefully, a GN Monte, Cutlass, & Grand Am, too ), all of which look likely to be better for it.

The BMW M62 V8 as well as the 3.5 Isuzu V8 in the Beretta-based "Feretta" prototype would also be approximate benchmarks for this clean-sheet LS-based GM Small Block V8-derived meets Northstar/LT5 compact replacement for both the ATL European Vauxhall V8 and the North American all-alloy L-10 derived 1970s compact V8 successor to the 215 BOP V8 as well as the Holden V8.

Quite like the idea of the ATL mk2 Vauxhall Cavalier / Opel Ascona C either being powered by 2.5-3.0-litre versions of the 60-degree V6 or an equivalent-sized Vauxhall V8-based 90-degree V6 to better challenge the Ford Sierra V6s, instead of making do with only 4-cylinder engines albeit both in FWD and 4WD forms.

*sigh* Better, quicker Minis in larger numbers, better Z26s, better GNRs... It makes me sad it didn't happen.

Agreed, there are also other ideas that could have happened for other carmakers such as Ford of Europe (see Steve Saxty's books including the upcoming Secret Fords books).

Just realized in the case of ATL Argyll-Fiat, while they would not be in a position to develop a FWD version of their locally built Fiat 500-based 4-seater Autobianchi Bianchina variation for the 1960s. They could have easily developed a locally built rear-engined hatchback variant using the flat-mounted 2-cylinder engine layout in the 1960 Fiat 500 Giardiniera estate, a similar approach was taken later on in Poland with the 1987 Fiat 126p BIS hatchback.

 

[phx1138]

Would say the rough benchmark for the ATL Chevrolet 90-degree V6 diesel/turbodiesel would be the Mercedes-Benz OM603 inline-6, ATL 100 hp (NA) / 150 (?) hp (turbodiesel) 225 Chrysler Slant-Six diesel/turbodiesel, the 150 hp 3.6 VM Motori diesel used in the OTL AMC Eagle (that was reputedly considered for use in Jaguars along with a counter-pitch by Steyr to Jaguar against the VM Motori diesel for their 150-160 hp inline-6 turbodiesel project being one of the first applications of pump jet direct injection in car engines long before Fiat brought the first direct injection Croma, with even Jaguar looking to the 5-cylinder Mercedes-Benz OM617 diesel as inspiration for a potential dieselized AJ6 engine in OTL).

It is a bit difficult to calculate the benchmark for the ATl Chevrolet Small Block V8-based diesel/turbodiesel compared to the OTL Oldsmobile V8 diesel, had the 3.5-litre Rover V8-based Project Iceberg diesel/turbodiesel been further developed and produced you are looking at figures of 100 hp (NA) and 125-150 hp (turbodiesel). However it would be until 1998-1999 when car-focused V8 diesels would become a thing with the 222 hp 3.3 V8 in the 1st gen Audi A8, 247+ hp 4.0 V8 in the Mercedes-Benz S-Class W220) and 235 hp 3.9 V8 in the BMW 7-Series E38.

I had the OTL quality issues in mind, actually, plus the North American hostility to diesel generally, which led to a lot of Olds diesels being engine-swapped.

Thinking about it a bit more, a better diesel, especially with European influence & tech, might just mean there are actually more Olds diesels around. (Yes, the hot rodder in me is unrestrained. ) Thus, diesels with the kind of performance you're suggesting would be good for GM, & good for rodders (& customizers).

Am basically looking at an ATL Ascona A / Ascona B whose dimensions are comparable to the mk3-mk5 Ford Cortina (which would itself form the basis of the ATL Pinto).

IMO, the Cortina is a bit bigger than it needs to be if it's going to the the alt-Pinto (& so alt-Mustang II?); I continue to think smaller is better, here. (The idea of the Vega being bigger than the 'vette seems really odd, to me.) If you're after an executive model, there's always the Consul to base it on.

The ideas learned in CERV, 215 BOP V8 and ATL commercially successful L-10 (meets GM 122) based 4/60-degree V6/compact 90-degree V8 / 60-degree V12 engine family could be applied to the ATL Chevrolet 90-degree V6 / Small Block V8 engines.

As for the ATL 60-degree V12 it depends on when it appears relative to the ATL Vega (the latter making use of smaller engines in the related engine family) and if it manages to survive through the fuel crisis 1970s.

I do hope the V12 would appear in time for the Eldo; OE V12s in a U.S. maker... Cad sales might take a hit in the oil crisis; GM could carry them...

The BMW M62 V8 as well as the 3.5 Isuzu V8 in the Beretta-based "Feretta" prototype would also be approximate benchmarks for this clean-sheet LS-based GM Small Block V8-derived meets Northstar/LT5 compact replacement for both the ATL European Vauxhall V8 and the North American all-alloy L-10 derived 1970s compact V8 successor to the 215 BOP V8 as well as the Holden V8.

Works for me. My concern with the 32v (presuming a 90deg V8) is width, for a longitudinal fit; a transverse, like the Allante (or notional *Corsetta), has less of an issue that way.

Quite like the idea of the ATL mk2 Vauxhall Cavalier / Opel Ascona C either being powered by 2.5-3.0-litre versions of the 60-degree V6 or an equivalent-sized Vauxhall V8-based 90-degree V6 to better challenge the Ford Sierra V6s, instead of making do with only 4-cylinder engines albeit both in FWD and 4WD forms.

Agreed. I would, however, suggest it earlier, say the Ascona B (in essence, first-year T-car).

Just realized in the case of ATL Argyll-Fiat, while they would not be in a position to develop a FWD version of their locally built Fiat 500-based 4-seater Autobianchi Bianchina variation for the 1960s. They could have easily developed a locally built rear-engined hatchback variant using the flat-mounted 2-cylinder engine layout in the 1960 Fiat 500 Giardiniera estate, a similar approach was taken later on in Poland with the 1987 Fiat 126p BIS hatchback.

2cyl flat under the floor? Here I thought Mazda came up with that for the MPV... (Hint to Chrysler: slant 6, RWD... )