Bismarck sinks Hood, POW & Rodney

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Proctol

Banned
Speed is as important as armour, and with Bismarck being a whole 7 knots faster, with engines producing 138,000 shp over Rodney's 45,000 shp, the Brit will soon be overtaken and overwhelmed, unless she gets a lucky long range hit.

Despite Yamato having heavier guns & armour than an Iowa class, it has been calculated that in a one on one, the American will win 4 out of 5 times.
 
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Proctol said:
Speed is as important as armour, and with Bismarck being a whole 7 knots faster, with engines producing 138,000 shp over Rodney's 45,000 shp, the Brit will soon be overtaken and overwhelmed, unless she gets a lucky long range hit.

Despite Yamato having heavier guns & armour than an Iowa class, it has been calculated that in a one on one, the American will win 4 out of 5 times.

Holy Channeling the ghost of Admiral Jacky Fisher!

The Rodney wouldn't be overtaken or overwhelmed. The only way you over take a ship is if your coming from behind it. The speed of the Bismarck could be used to close range with Rodney, but why do that against that ship?

I would credit the high odds for the Iowa vs. the Yamato more to the fire control system of the Americans, than anything else.
 
So speed is armor, huh, tell THAT to the crew of QUEEN MARY

INVINCEBLE and INDEFATIGABLE! Also the crew of HOOD!

If IOWA could beat YAMATO 4 out of 5 tries, it is because of superior fire control. IOWA's guns and armor aren't really that good compared to 70,000 tons!

Why not head over to WARSHIPS1 and ask the experts there! They can tell you all about immune zones, etc, and really shoot the argument full of holes!
 

Sargon

Donor
Monthly Donor
I've gamed this dozens of times, as well as studied the design aspects of both ships in some depth. In short, Rodney is at a disadvantage if Bismarck uses her greater speed to manouever into advantageous positions, although this is not always as easy as it sounds, since it is not that hard for Rodney to keep as many guns as possible pointing at Bismarck if she is fighting at long range. Rodney is hardly likely to run from Bismarck, so I agree with David that she won't be overtaken and overwhelmed.

As for Bismarck, she is in trouble if hit by Rodney's shells, not just because of the thickness of her armour, but because of her armour layout, whereas Rodney's armour is reasonable for defeating Bismarck's shells, although no ship is going to shrug off 15" hits, and they are going to cause all sorts of problems. The layout of armour on Rodney is actually very good, despite being an older design. Bismarck's armour scheme appears to be suspect in dealing with damage since a lot of the vital communcations equipment was above the armoured deck, and not below it. This was one of the factors that caused Bismarck to be quickly silenced in her final battle. Her turrets were not well designed, and the armour was not as thick as other comparable ships. A 14" shell from KGV penetrated the faceplate of one turret with comparative ease before blowing out the back of it. In addition, it would seem there was some sort of defect in German turret/magazine design, since both of Bismarck's forward turrets appear to have been knocked out by a single 16" hit from Rodney. Scharnhorst also appeared to suffer from a similar problem due to one of Duke of York's hits. One other factor is the high rate of dud shells that Bismarck suffered from. There is evidence that had one of the shells that penetrated PoW's armour below the waterline exploded, it would have caused damage significant enough to cripple, or even sink the ship. Post-battle examination of the ship in drydock indicated a potentially fatal hit had been avoided by the shell being a dud. As for Rodney's guns being medicore, a more than 2000lbs shell is going to hurt no matter if it is fired from a mediocre gun or not.

Bismarck has excellent optics and can achieve early straddles and hits, however, her optics place a considerable strain upon the the staff manning them due to the design peculiarites of the system, meaning that after a while accuracy starts to fall off. If Bismarck hits at long range, then Rodney is going to suffer. This is where Bismarck's speed can be used to her advantage by keeping Rodney far away. However, Rodney's shells, if they hit, are going to cause a world of pain against Bismarck's comparatively weak deck armour at such a range. Bismarck is actually better at fighting at close range due to the turtledeck armour layout behind her belt. However, Bismarck is a more modern ship, and despite various deficiencies, should be able to defeat Rodney. Of course, the same is true. If my gaming I have tried out all sorts of scenarios, and I have to say that on balance, the Bismarck usually comes out worse off unless she scores early hits. Rodney is built to slog it out. Bismarck was designed with commerce raiding as her primary mission, and to be able to survive damage at close range as a result. However, being able to survive and get away is different from being able to maintain operationality of armament. Bismarck's main armament was relatively easy to knock out of action, and that is what I found when gaming.

Let us not forget that Bismarck was severely hampered in her final fight from having almost no manoueverability due to the results of the aerial torpedo hit aft. She still managed to straddle Rodney at the beginning of the battle. With full manouevarability she would have put up a better fight, but against two powerful BBs, she'd be up against it, having to hope that the turret and gun troubles of KGV and Rodney evened things up a bit. Of course, if she had her manouverability, she would not have been anywhere near those ships in the first place.

I would dispute the comments about Yamato losing 4 out of 5 times to Iowa, and caution is advised here. I have also gamed this a lot. Even with Iowa's radar, Yamato usually wins, though not every time of course. It is easy to say Yamato has no chance because of Iowa's radar, but there is more to a battle than that, and one shouldn't write off Yamato's chances so easily, she was after all built to slug it out, and Iowa is not designed to slug it out with a Yamato...Montana was. Early hits by Iowa are the key, and these are not guaranteed. Whilst it is true that Iowa's excellent radar guided fire control gives her a great advantage, she still has to hit a lot. Yamato may not be very efficent in terms of design, but she has lots of armour, and even with radar, hits are not guaranteed..you only have to look at the incident where one of the Iowa class was firing on a Japanese ship (I forget which) at long range where nothing but straddles were obtained for evidence of that. Iowa is actually not heavily armoured for her size, this was the trade off for the extra speed that she was designed for, and if any of Yamato's shells hit, they are going to *hurt*. Suffice to say that her speed advantage would most probably soon be degraded. Any hits that damage or disable her radar are going to take that advantage away as well, but you could say the same about Yamato's optics, which incidentally were the best quality ever put to sea in a BB. However, the Japanese optics, like the Germans' were also labour intensive, and could suffer from the same degradation as the German's did. Yamato actually was able to range and spot targets at 42,000 yards at Samar, and opened fire not long afterwards. However, her poor performance there should not be indicative of her general perfomance since she had several things to contend with such as: 1. 3 days of constant air attacks, leading to a fatigued crew 2. Under air as well as surface attack and having to manouver accordingly, throwing off firing solutions 3. Kurita's 'General Chase' order meaning that the ships of the fleet were not working in co-ordination in fighting 4. Smokescreens obscuring the scene of battle making spotting hard 5. Being out of the battle for 20 minutes as a result of running from torpedoes aiming in from dead astern that were rather coincidentally set at the same speed as her maximum speed meaning she could not risk a turn, and was heading away from the action. I would challenge any other BB to do better in such circumstances.


Sargon

P.S,. I am one of the membership from over at warships1 :p
 

Proctol

Banned
The ROF of Bismarck's guns was 3 per minute vs Rodney's 1. 24 rounds in the air vs 9, means the odds are with the Nazi.
 
Don't you mean 2 rpm (x9) for RODNEY?

Proctol said:
The ROF of Bismarck's guns was 3 per minute vs Rodney's 1. 24 rounds in the air vs 9, means the odds are with the Nazi.

And that's 18 vs 24 (provided that BISMARCK can keep it up (which is doubtful).

Siegfried Breyer says RODNEY's 16" L45 MK I gun tube can fire at the rate of two (2) per minute!

If BISMARCK was so good, why is it that NO British Battleships, neither KING GEORGE V or RODNEY suffered a single hit from any of those machinegun 15"ers? I've read estimates of over TWENTY (20) 16" hits on BISMARCK, plus more from 14"!
 
Rate of Fire is calculated under very ideal conditions and is susceptible to seastate and conditions under fire. I think few heavy guns of battleships reached their ROF under battle conditions. Its always the first few shots that are the most telling.

Rate of Fire is also governed by training. The British at Jutland were trained to emphasize rate of fire. The unfortunate thing about that is that the gunners became relatively lslack in safety precautions which directly lead to the loss of three battlecruisers - more so than the argument of thin armour.
 

Proctol

Banned
Bismarck as not so good, but she excelled in initial accuracy and rate of fire. The initial shots can be the most telling. The first German salvoes were very accurate against Hood. Accuracy & ROF will of course quickly fall off, which is why the initial punches can be decisive.

Note 2 here gives the practical British 16" ROF as 1 per minute.
http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WNBR_16-45_mk1.htm

Note 3 here gives the Bismarck's 15" ROF of 3 per minute as being practically achievable.
http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-52_skc34.htm

On the www.warships1.com forum, the general opinion of the savants is that one on one Bismarck will prevail over a Nelson (Rodney).
 
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What everybody seems to be forgetting in this detailed comparison of ship-to-ship capabilities (thank's to Sargon for the gaming detail - what system do you use?) is the overall strategic situation:

These ships are sitting on an Atlantic ocean essentially owned by the Royal Navy. It is very difficult for dreadnought BB's to be sunk by gunfire alone. If Bismarck did get the best of Rodney in a one-on-one, she would immediately sail away as soon as the British ship was crippled enough not to give chase. Barring chance U-boat attacks, Rodney would survive to fight another day. A crippled or slowed Bismarck, however, is dead meat. Since it is almost impossible a slug-fest between such equally matched opponents would not result in both ships being damaged, Rodney will win by default.

In fact, the point can be made that Hood and POW strategically won the first engagement by simply bringing Bismarck to battle. Although Hood was lost and PoW took damage, the damage sustained by Bismarck led to the abandonment of her sortie and set the stage for her eventual loss. It would be hard to explain this to Hood's compliment, but the trade of an obsolescent BC for a brand-new German BB is a good one.
 
zoomar said:
In fact, the point can be made that Hood and POW strategically won the first engagement by simply bringing Bismarck to battle. Although Hood was lost and PoW took damage, the damage sustained by Bismarck led to the abandonment of her sortie and set the stage for her eventual loss. It would be hard to explain this to Hood's compliment, but the trade of an obsolescent BC for a brand-new German BB is a good one.
I think this is correct. However, remember what a damn close thing the hunt for Bismarck was. It might have turned out differently without the lucky torpedo hit, or with some U-boats with torps in the area, or... Anyway, even in such case, most likely Bismarck would have ended similar to Tirpitz in the end because the RN did have overwhelming superiority. To quote Admiral Raeder at the beginning of WW2: The Kriegsmarine did not have any chance to win, but it could only show that it could die honorably.
 

Proctol

Banned
1. If Bismarck had not been damaged or not brought to battle, how much damage could she have done to the convoys? Were there any convoys at sea at the time? How far west would she have dared to sail?

2. If Prinz Eugen had stayed with Bismarck, would her extra flak have been enough to beat off the Stringbags? If not, & Bismarck had been rudder-damaged as in OTL, could PE have towed her to Brest?

3. With hindsight, what is the best possible scenario/operation/usage that could have been made of Bismarck in WW2?

She + Tirpitz or Scharnhorst or Gneisenau + Prinz Eugen would be a tough nut to crack.
 
Although I'm tempted to say the best use of Bismarck would have been as steel for more submarines, the best thing the Germans could have hoped for its main surface units (Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, and Gneisenau) would have been to keep them deep in German waters - or in Norwegian bases - for use as a fleet in being and to mount a really massive attack on the convoys to the Soviet Union. Just possibly the germans could have both sunk a lot of merchantmen and a British or US battleship in the bargain. Unfortunately, putting them in Brest would have just resulted in them gradually being pounded into scows by the RAF. Maybe they could have been sold to the Japanese, who knew how to use a navy.
 
Proctol said:
1. If Bismarck had not been damaged or not brought to battle, how much damage could she have done to the convoys? Were there any convoys at sea at the time? How far west would she have dared to sail?

2. If Prinz Eugen had stayed with Bismarck, would her extra flak have been enough to beat off the Stringbags? If not, & Bismarck had been rudder-damaged as in OTL, could PE have towed her to Brest?She + Tirpitz or Scharnhorst or Gneisenau + Prinz Eugen would be a tough nut to crack.


Both are interesting questions. (1) I'm sure there must have been convoys or merchantment at sea but whether or not Bismarck could have found them in an ocean swarming with the British navy looking for her is questionable. I tend to believe Bismarck would have either gone on to Brest without making any further contact with British ships or she would have been caught and sunk anyway. (2) This is a more interesting speculation. I've always thought Lutjens made a mistake in releasing PE from its escort duties and I' never thought of the possibility that the cruiser migh help by towing Bismarck back under Luftwaffe air cover.
 
zoomar said:
Both are interesting questions. (1) I'm sure there must have been convoys or merchantment at sea but whether or not Bismarck could have found them in an ocean swarming with the British navy looking for her is questionable. I tend to believe Bismarck would have either gone on to Brest without making any further contact with British ships or she would have been caught and sunk anyway. (2) This is a more interesting speculation. I've always thought Lutjens made a mistake in releasing PE from its escort duties and I' never thought of the possibility that the cruiser migh help by towing Bismarck back under Luftwaffe air cover.

My understanding is that there was a large convoy fairly close which had Ramilles as part of its escort force. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had been prohibited by Raeder from attacking convoys with battleship escorts. My guess is that Lutjens had similar orders.
 
It would be hard to explain this to Hood's compliment, but the trade of an obsolescent BC for a brand-new German BB is a good one.
You can hardly describe Hood as "obsolescent". Hood was still a fast and useful unit and had a planned modernisation not been abandoned due to the outbreak of war it's armour and secondary and AA armourment improved.
 
Incorrect. The rate of fire is irrelevant, as you need to wait until the shells of a salvo land before you can adjust and fire again.

Bismarck's main armament was pitiful compared to Rodney's and her protection inferior. Bismarck is a horribly overrated ship, which is to be expected with a 20-year gap in design experience. I wouldn't even place bets on Bismarck vs a fully worked up KGV.

And Rodney would NEVER, EVER, EVER run from Bismarck. EVER.

Proctol said:
The trouble with three close together turrets is that one well placed shell could take out the Rodney's entire main suite. With all its secondary armament at the rear, Rodney would be disadvantaged in a stern chase.

Bismarck's 38cms had the fastest ROF of any large naval gun and one on one would soon pummell Rodney's huge 5 storey bridge structure, which housed all the command, control, Fleet staff and gunnery control positions, into mangled Sheffield's finest
http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-52_skc34.htm

If Bismarck had pursued POW in a stern chase, KGV's rear quad 14" turret, even though functioning erratically, could yet have saved the day.

With the Neslon (Rodney) Class, the RN succeeded in getting the maximum advantages out of the Washington Treaty design limitations, but the Nelson (Rodney) Class suffered from poor manoeuverability, especially in cross winds & shallow waters.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Incorrect. The rate of fire is irrelevant, as you need to wait until the shells of a salvo land before you can adjust and fire again.

Bismarck's main armament was pitiful compared to Rodney's and her protection inferior. Bismarck is a horribly overrated ship, which is to be expected with a 20-year gap in design experience. I wouldn't even place bets on Bismarck vs a fully worked up KGV.

And Rodney would NEVER, EVER, EVER run from Bismarck. EVER.

Just what I've been saying!

RODNEY has no reason to run from BISMARCK!

RODNEY has heavier armor!

RODNEY has heavier armament!

Possible faster rate of fire for BISMARCK is theoretically "Nice" but it is doubtful that such rates could be maintained!

The Armament mounted on RODNEY can seriously damage BISMARCK. Tell me about the IMMUNE zones for RODNEY vs German 15" and also for BISMARCK vs British 16".
 

Proctol

Banned
Rodney cannot afford to run, because with no rear X or Y turrets, and being 7 knots slower, she is doomed in a stern chase. No doubt the crew know this, so they would be compelled to slog it out or close, where she would be in with a chance, as the inferiority of the British optics and rangefinders is less critical.

According to the Warship Forum, one on on, Rodney loses 3 out of 4 times.

With that massive bridge housing all the command,control & gunnery (Rodney had no backups), an initial quick long range hit from Bismarck, & "Rodnol" (as she was nicknamed, as her layout reminded the matelots of an oil tanker) would like to high tail it out like just POW did after her bridge was hit, but can't.

This is an interesting clip of Rodney's 16" muthas firing on the Channel Islands

http://www.itnarchive.com/cgi-bin/taweb.exe?x=d&o=d&q=(rodney)&d=BPATHE&i=41339&p=1&t=doc.tmpl&v=tabbed
 
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Concerning the convoy raids, some comments. First of all, there were several successful raids by German surface warships such as Admiral Scheer. Therefore, a convoy intercept was perfectly possible. Do not neglect that there were plenty of sumarines and intelligence data from the US...so a convoy could have been found.

However, I agree that normal procedure was not to attack convoys guarded by BBs because any kind of damage would probably have been fatal for the German forces. This is the reason why Scharnhorst and Gneisenau broke up that attack mentioned, although Hitler was furious afterwards. Adrimal Raeder was not that bad in strategy.

The reason why Bismarck sailed without Scharnhorst and Gneisenau was that both had been damaged...and Tirpitz was not operations ready yet.

I think that Bismarck could have done a lot of damage to convoys, and even might have caught one or several of the large troop transports that were too fast for other raiders and that often sailed unprotected.

The Prinz Eugen, however, was a bad choice as an escort, because it was too short legged in its fuel capacity. Furthermore, this class was overrated because it only carried eight 8" rifles, but was a lot bigger than allied Washington cruisers with similar armament. The ships could have towed Bismarck with any chance to evade the RN.

A final remark on German warship design: There never was a 20 years gap in planning. The German continued to design warships all over the 1920s, they only were not allowed to build them. And remember, the other powers did observe the treaty limitations (except the Japanese) with their new designs until 1935, such as KGV class or Nelson/Rodney. It also should not be neglected that German design of 1918 was far better than British design concerning water tight compartments and general underwater protection, but also armament layout and engines.
 
sikitu said:
Concerning the convoy raids, some comments. First of all, there were several successful raids by German surface warships such as Admiral Scheer. Therefore, a convoy intercept was perfectly possible. Do not neglect that there were plenty of sumarines and intelligence data from the US...so a convoy could have been found.

However, I agree that normal procedure was not to attack convoys guarded by BBs because any kind of damage would probably have been fatal for the German forces. This is the reason why Scharnhorst and Gneisenau broke up that attack mentioned, although Hitler was furious afterwards. Adrimal Raeder was not that bad in strategy.

The reason why Bismarck sailed without Scharnhorst and Gneisenau was that both had been damaged...and Tirpitz was not operations ready yet.

I think that Bismarck could have done a lot of damage to convoys, and even might have caught one or several of the large troop transports that were too fast for other raiders and that often sailed unprotected.

The Prinz Eugen, however, was a bad choice as an escort, because it was too short legged in its fuel capacity. Furthermore, this class was overrated because it only carried eight 8" rifles, but was a lot bigger than allied Washington cruisers with similar armament. The ships could have towed Bismarck with any chance to evade the RN.

A final remark on German warship design: There never was a 20 years gap in planning. The German continued to design warships all over the 1920s, they only were not allowed to build them. And remember, the other powers did observe the treaty limitations (except the Japanese) with their new designs until 1935, such as KGV class or Nelson/Rodney. It also should not be neglected that German design of 1918 was far better than British design concerning water tight compartments and general underwater protection, but also armament layout and engines.


The question remains: Why even sent such valuable surface units into the north atlantic to attack convoys if they were under standard orders not to attack convoys escorted by BB's. It seems the only reason you want to send gobs of 11" and 15" guns and tons of ships out is to make surface attacks on BB-escorted convoys feasible. The "pocket battleships" of the Scheer class could attack the unescorted convoys fine with a lot less prestige on the line.

I agree with AHP about German WW2 capital ship design. While there were interwar design studies for ships, most consisted of attempts to create BB-like vessels which could fit under the 10,000 ton Versailles limitations - not full-fledged BB's or BB's. Also late WW1 German design was not necessarily better than British. Most sources I've read agree the Revenge-class BB's were as good or better overall than the "Badens", and the Queen Elizabeths were probably the overall best ships of the war. I've also read that when the Germans decided to opt out of Versailles, they went back to the designs of "Mackensen" and "Erzatz-Yorck" as the base of "Scharnhorst" and "Bismarck" even owed something to "Baden". Bismarck is an amazingly overrated ship. For US people, some of this may be attributed to that horrible 1960's Johnny Horton ballad "Sink the Bismarck": "The Bismarck was the biggest ship, it had the biggest guns" also with "shells as big as steers". Imagine plunging fire of cows slamming onto the deck of "Hood"! Given equivalent levels of crew competence, I'd give Rodney, Richelieu, KgV, Washington, and Alabama a least even odds in a fair fight against Bismarck. Iowa and Yamato would not even be close..
 
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