Best use of German navy east asiatic squadron in ww1

Basils

Banned
But they were crushed relatively soon , how can they pull off multiple sms emden like episodes
That’s is the answer. Peel off all the cruisers and let them go on their own. emden did a great job, another one in the Indian Ocean would have caused all the more havoc. While the armored cruisers go in their death ride and don’t try and attack the harbor at the Falklands
 
Some more contrarian thinking, so feel free to make fun:

If the Germans just kept the squadron at Tsingtao, could the firepower of the guns and men culled from the crew actually help the fortress hold out longer, if it holds out 5 extra weeks your beyond the OTL survival time of the squadron anyway.

(Dresden and Leipzig could still operate independently since they were on the west coast and south Atlantic at the start of the war)

But what if they just did that everywhere???, cruiser Karlsruhe to Kamerun (Doula), Dresden to Southwest Africa (Luderitz), defend the ports, then the colony, like Konigsberg did OTL in East Africa.

(If were thinking with a OTL perspective, the German army would win quickly in Europe, home by Christmas etc..., these colonies become negotiating points in a peace conference, holding them means less given up in Europe to get them back, and if the war lasted longer, any diversion of resources the Allies take from Europe to take a better defended colony helps the war in Europe).

Sure such a strategy takes away the threat of a "fleet in being" of ships being out on the seas, but was it really much of a threat???? All the imperial convoys made it to Europe, trade was barely affected, the German colonies all fell, and all the German ships were run down quickly (Emden being the dramatic exception, but it was the fastest of the light cruisers on the high seas when war broke out).
 
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If the German squadron stays at Tsingtao then the Japanese bring a bigger hammer - Kongo, Settsu, Kawachi, Kurama, Ibuki etc and conducts Port Arthur 2.0. All your non north sea problems bottled up in one easy to take port, raider concerns minimalised and RN squadrons and shippping continue to rule the seas. Admiralty is delighted
 
If the German squadron stays at Tsingtao then the Japanese bring a bigger hammer - Kongo, Settsu, Kawachi, Kurama, Ibuki etc and conducts Port Arthur 2.0. All your non north sea problems bottled up in one easy to take port, raider concerns minimalised and RN squadrons and shippping continue to rule the seas. Admiralty is delighted
Was that possible with improvements to mines and torpedos since Port Arthur and without a surprise element? ( Tsongtao is a decently defended port).

OTL the Germans were lucky they lasted as long as they did, if the British just stayed close to Canopus off Coronel they couldn't lose really. Not many good options.
 
Was that possible with improvements to mines and torpedos since Port Arthur and without a surprise element? ( Tsongtao is a decently defended port).

OTL the Germans were lucky they lasted as long as they did, if the British just stayed close to Canopus off Coronel they couldn't lose really. Not many good options.
Surprise could happen. There was a surprise courtesy visit by Japanese warships to Tsingtao between the start of ww1 and Japanese entry into the war.
 

tonycat77

Banned
Send them all to wreak havoc alone, when low on ammo, just intern themselves at a neutral port.
Perhaps sell them for pennies on the dollar to the country that has interned them.
 
Coud the German heavy cruisers make it to the Mexican West Coast? Theoretically? The German high commander could use them as bargaining chips in the Zimmermann cable to strengthen the biggest party in the Mexican Civil War in return for some political goodwill. Officially off course, they would 'flee' to Mexico and be 'interned' there. But whatever faction is the most sympathetic to the Germans could just press them into their own navy and keep the commanders aboard as 'tactical advisers'.
 
Coud the German heavy cruisers make it to the Mexican West Coast? Theoretically? The German high commander could use them as bargaining chips in the Zimmermann cable to strengthen the biggest party in the Mexican Civil War in return for some political goodwill. Officially off course, they would 'flee' to Mexico and be 'interned' there. But whatever faction is the most sympathetic to the Germans could just press them into their own navy and keep the commanders aboard as 'tactical advisers'.
Zimmermann telegram was MUCH later (beginning 1917) than the time frame we speak of late summer/autumn 1914.
Therefore it would a rtaher quick way to get the US of A engaged alreayd in late 1914/early 1915.

... rather contraproductive ...
 

Monk78

Kicked
Not putting them on the high seas would be best
They could have been very useful in the Baltic

or in Mediterranean if they somehow ended up with A-H
 
Not putting them on the high seas would be best
They could have been very useful in the Baltic

or in Mediterranean if they somehow ended up with A-H
Not really.

The Baltic was tied down anyway and if they end up with AH maybe they replace Goeben which would be useful at home. If they do replace Goeben then they just get stuck in the Adriatic. Ottomans stay out (or stay out longer).
 

Monk78

Kicked
Zimmermann telegram was MUCH later (beginning 1917) than the time frame we speak of late summer/autumn 1914.
Therefore it would a rtaher quick way to get the US of A engaged alreayd in late 1914/early 1915.

... rather contraproductive ...
Amazing sig
I couldn’t agree more
 
Zimmermann telegram was MUCH later (beginning 1917) than the time frame we speak of late summer/autumn 1914.
Therefore it would a rtaher quick way to get the US of A engaged alreayd in late 1914/early 1915.

... rather contraproductive ...

They could support Wilsons favorite Mexican, whoever that was. Tho my first thought was if any of the Pacific ports could at all support this cruiser force.
 
How much damage can they do to Western Canada before being defeated?

"The Leipzig’s plan, McKelvie wrote, was to use darkness and a seasonal fog bank to slip down the Strait of Juan de Fuca past the huge, rapid-firing shore guns at Victoria’s Fort Rodd and support an insurrection in the province’s major port."

(evidently a lot of German and Austrian nationals in Vancouver at the time)


Interesting article, kind of like the OTL Falklands plan, the Germans can take a place, burn some coal, propaganda victory, divert some troops if they can create enough hysteria, probably not much effect in the long term.
 
"Interning" in Fao (fictious sale maybe), is the only real history diverging course of action available IMO, it was a fortress, German officers, crews and guns taken from a cruiser could have really energized the defense of the fort and region, energy and leadership which was lacking OTL. The cruisers could go up the Shat Al Arab as far as was navigable (the LCs were pretty shallow drafted). Even one of the German Panther class gunboats would have been handy here in the river.

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Monk78

Kicked
"Interning" in Fao (fictious sale maybe), is the only real history diverging course of action available IMO, it was a fortress, German officers, crews and guns taken from a cruiser could have really energized the defense of the fort and region, energy and leadership which was lacking OTL. The cruisers could go up the Shat Al Arab as far as was navigable (the LCs were pretty shallow drafted). Even one of the German Panther class gunboats would have been handy here in the river.

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But what about the bigger armored cruisers ?
how about going for a neutral port in Spain or Norway and taking your chances there ?
 
How much damage can they do to Western Canada before being defeated?
I had a few thoughts about that. Spoiler, quite a bit of damage indeed.
Nürnberg was in Hawaii when von Schönberg got the war warning telegram on the 28th of July.
Leipzig was off Mexico.
They would have a few weeks to range up and down the coast of British Columbia. The only naval assets were HMCS Rainbow, commissioned in 1891, and a couple of coastal submarines built for Chile that were crewed mostly by novices. A couple of RN sloops were based out of Esquimalt, but their crews had been sent to Halifax by train.
HIJMS Izumo arrived in Esquimalt August 25, HMS Newcastle came all the way from Japan and arrived August 30.
 
But what about the bigger armored cruisers ?
how about going for a neutral port in Spain or Norway and taking your chances there ?
Maybe 2 decent choices for the A/Cs:
1) Stay in the Pacific and actually try to defend some place.
2) Try to slink home, avoiding contact as much as possible, not sure how possible it is for the Germans to coal close to Europe, outside of ports is generally tough unless there are shoals, but 2 ACs are a big concentration of force, its likely the Germans could get in and out of a neutral port before the British could bring a concentration of force to beat 2 ACs. Spanish ports are as friendly as anywhere I suppose.

#3) The OTL choice, semi aggressively attacking remote bases, only partially successful, got luck at Coronel (the British could have stayed with Canopus). Even amongst the LCs, only Emden did much, even then nothing critical.
 
1) Stay in the Pacific and actually try to defend some place.

I think there were a host of reasons pointing to this being the best option. The plan being, to leave Leipzig and Dresden in the Americas raiding independently, to send Emden and Nurnberg into the Indian Ocean as raiders, and for Spee's armored cruisers accompanied by the Austria protected cruiser Kaiserin Elisabeth to venture south to defend German possessions. Advantages -

1. The Spee squadron, IIRC, mustered something about 15,000 or 18,000 tons of coal for the voyage to South America aboard a motely collection of available shipping. (I would have to double check). The distance from Marianas (the assembly point) to South America was enormous, at 8,300nm. With the exception of the Emden, all the assembled coaliers and warships basically expended several months and huge amounts of the coal reserve to pass through the vast wastes of the Pacific to reach Craddock's squadron. Logistically, keeping the armored cruisers inside the German Pacific Islands belts was much better. There were plenty of places to hide, and far more time could be spent not moving, letting that initial coal reserve go much further even after Emden and Nurnberg peeled off with 8,000 tons for their own adventures.

2. Spee's decision to remove himself from the scene and sail east allowed the British breathing time to organize their defenses. If Spee's squadron had stayed, and managed to pounce on some force or other, the movements of the Entente forces would have been less efficient, more confused.

3. Some of the infantry forces at Tsingtao, plus Spee's squadron's ammunition reserve apparently left behind, could have been sent south on the mustering coaliers, which was a better use of them since they could not be penned up later. If one of Spee's ships were damaged in battle, it's crew could more easily switch over to the infantry role, whereas going to South America basically took this option off the table.

4. Spee had one key advantage in the Caroline region early in the war - the German wireless network. Unlike in his blind fumbling around South America, in the region of Rabaul and Palau, Spee could wait at an anchorage for an opportunity to attack one of the Entente squadrons attacking various islands, using information on the enemy's strength and location broadcast by his wireless network to decide if and when to offer battle. (For example, wait at Ngulu Atoll or the islands around Kavieng). Spee was the spider, the wireless network his web. Nowhere else he could go would he have this advantage of the element of surprise and better intel.

Tactically, Spee's objective I think should have been to take a shot at the one thing that he and many others thought to be unthinkable - to find and sink the HMAS Australia. This would be worth both of the armored cruisers in his squadron. The 'how' for that was simple. To place infantry at Rabaul to bolster the garrison so that any Australian invasion would take at least a week. Then, when reports that Australia was anchored off Rabaul in support of the invasion, come around the south side of New Ireland and sail into Rabaul harbor in the middle of the night (Savo Island style) to engage Australia at anchor at point blank range with both armored cruisers. (German shore based forces could broadcast Australia's precise location using the inland wireless transmitter).

If Spee actually sank Australia, the balance of power in Australian waters would be transformed immediately, and Spee would have a window of maybe a month to dominate the waters off the Australian east coast and completely disrupt Australian war planning and troop movements by sea.
 
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Tactically, Spee's objective I think should have been to take a shot at the one thing that he and many others thought to be unthinkable - to find and sink the HMAS Australia. This would be worth both of the armored cruisers in his squadron. The 'how' for that was simple. To place infantry at Rabaul to bolster the garrison so that any Australian invasion would take at least a week. Then, when reports that Australia was anchored off Rabaul in support of the invasion, come around the south side of New Ireland and sail into Rabaul harbor in the middle of the night (Savo Island style) to engage Australia at anchor at point blank range with both armored cruisers. (German shore based forces could broadcast Australia's precise location using the inland wireless transmitter).

If Spee actually sank Australia, the balance of power in Australian waters would be transformed immediately, and Spee would have a window of maybe a month to dominate the waters off the Australian east coast and completely disrupt Australian war planning and troop movements by sea.
Wow. That could work. Spee would have to be very lucky, and Patey very unlucky. This mission would certainly be a worthy use of the armoured cruisers.

Australia had only a 6 inch belt, and 7 inches of armour on the barbettes and turrets, the same belt and one inch more protection for the guns than HMS Good Hope. One will recall that Good Hope had her forward turret blown up by Scharnhorst's third salvo, and had her forward magazine explode 45 minutes into the Battle of Coronel.

Australia would be unlikely to be alone in this ATL scenario at Rubaul. She was generally travelling in company with at various times, the cruisers Montcalm, Sydney, Encounter, Pioneer, Psyche and Pyramus, the destroyers Parramatta, Warrego, and Yarra, and 2 submarines. At the landings at Rubaul on September 11, Australia was accompanied by Sydney, Warrego, Yarra, and the armed merchant cruiser Berrima, the latter 3 acting as troopships. Encounter arrived a few days later to provide gunfire support to the advance inland, and Montcalm was somewhere in the immediate area. Other than Montcalm, and to a lesser degree Sydney, none of these ships would by themselves be trouble for Spee, but they would increase the change of spoiling the surprise, and add confusion to a night action.

The Admiralty was enraged after Coronel, if this bold plan paid off, the RN would be apoplectic. ANZAC troopships would stop moving immediately. I am not sure that Spee would have a month of unchecked action. Kongo, the brand new Hiei, and the proto-battlecruisers Ibuki and Kasuga, were in theatre. The latter 2 had 4 x 12 inch guns and were only a knot slower than S & G. Japan also had 11 other assorted armoured cruisers. HMS Hampshire, Minotaur, and Newcastle were based a Wei Hai Wei, but Newcastle had already left to reinforce Esquimalt. If the Germans were damaged in Rubaul harbour, and slwed even by a few knots, they would have an even harder time getting away from their pursuers.
 
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