Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
I would think the Ummayads would consider moving to Constantinople especially if they plan on expanding north and west from the Balkans. Or some breakaway Islamic Caliphate. And yes, I would tend to think so.
Arab conquests if Persia is not conquered
- Thread starter Pachac
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I would think the Ummayads would consider moving to Constantinople especially if they plan on expanding north and west from the Balkans. Or some breakaway Islamic Caliphate. And yes, I would tend to think so.
Theoretically, but it would be immensely difficult.
The only way I can imagine that happening is either a stroke of extraordinary bad luck (similar to 1204 would be a good sign) or having eaten up the Empire's Anatolian territories so it can't afford to defend itself.
Neither is very likely no matter how badly things go for the Byzantines.
Look at what happened when the Arabs tried OTL. Not just as in failure but why and how.
Yes, but now the Arabs don't have to worry about the Persians. They can directly for Byzantium. I guess what I was getting at was perhaps that they would have crippled Byzantium by taking most, if not all of Anatolia from them, as well as the key to the Aegean, Crete.
Possibly, but I'm not sure they could do more than OTL in this scenario. Not without something beyond the obvious effects (entirely possible, but by no means a given).
Well, could what Drago's suggesting work? An attack on the Byzantines by both Slavs and Arabs?
The Persians couldn't make it work. How are the Arabs going to do so?
I'm not saying its flat out impossible - if there is a chance at all (and I'm even more hesitant to flat out say "No, there isn't one." than that it would be unlikely at best) this would be, I think, one of the better ones - but that's not saying much.
Constantinople is perhaps the most defensible capital this side of the Indus, and the Byzantines maintain the best or second best army in the known world. Bad combination.
Not completely insurmountable - but it would be a feat making the conqueror legendary for this alone, in my opinion. That ought to give an idea of how much his task involves.
But if the Arabs can smash the Byzantine navy and control the sea. If they can maintain a siege through the winter, and if they can get the Slavs on their side and cooperating for this...
Then I'd say its possible if those perquisites are maintained.
As the Spartans said to a Macedonian would-be-conqueror, however: "If."
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Hmm. Could they at least cripple the empire by taking Anatolia and Crete from it?
Crete they did take and hold for a while, so nothing prevents that. Anatolia...
Taking it is one thing. But how long will it stay in their hands?
I guess it would depend. Would Byzantium not be crippled by the loss of most of its manpower? If so, what is stopping them from keeping it?
Pretty much so, particularly if it hasn't regained the Slav lands. Remove Anatolia from the ERE/Byzantine Empire as of about 700-900 and there's not much left.
As for keeping it: How long until the Caliphate's power recedes for the reasons that OTL that didn't rule All Islam for very long? And when that happens, how long until the Christians in Anatolia decide that they'd rather be independent of Muslim Arabs who are thin on the ground?
I would say that the Calpihate's decline may be analogous to OTL. I would say that the early caliphate would not have to worry about troublesome Persia, instead trading it for the troublesome Anatolia. Then again, it becomes a question of which Christians would prefer it under Byzantium. Anatolia has allows had much better sympathies towards Byzantium than the Levant or Egypt, so I expect more revolts and for the area to be a hotspot in regards to rebellions. The large number of Greeks will be analogous to the replacement of Arabs by Greeks and Persians in the bureaucracy, like it did in OTL, but more with Greeks than with Persians. The problem becomes that Byzantium may not be alive by the time the Arabs collapse and any Christian states in the area would not be Byzantium itself.
http://rbedrosian.com/Maps/shpha54_55.htm
Once the Muslim world is no longer "the ____ Caliphate." as essentially the only state on the map.
http://rbedrosian.com/Maps/shpha58_59.htm
No good map for the 900s or the east here, though.
So after 946.
In that case we could probably see at least two Caliphates. They generally have a living period of 150 years before another one takes over but it depends on pressures on it. When Persia was defeated the Arabs didn't have a state comparable to OTL Byzantium stopping them nearer than China. In this case they have the Persians, which will most likely become very revanchist and anti-Muslim, having the old Sassanid tendency to equate Religious beliefs with Political allegiances and persecuting Muslims. However, if Byzantium survives it could help rebels in Anatolia damage the Caliphate's position there but a Non-Byzantine Anatolia would be damaging for them.
Ja.
Some interesting possibilities here. Could the pressures of a surviving Persia mean that something happens that in one of the earlier transitions things go wrong and break up? Or at least someone takes advantage of it (maybe Byzantium, Persia itself...)
Once thing we must remember regarding Persia is that it will be damaged for a few decades following the loss of Mesopotamia. My opinion leads to Persia attacking the Caliphate in the 700s, most likely taking advantage of Dynastic troubles that happen in such a vast empire. Byzantium will be down and out for the golden age of the Caliphate but if they're lucky and get a good emperor they can pull themselves back up and attack the Caliphate as it falters.
I think the Caliphate may try to unsuccessfully focus itself on Italy, attempting with more vigor to take Naples and holding onto Sicily. This may just be its downfall, especially if they trigger a reaction from the Franks which leads to them attacking them.
An interesting consequence for the churches may be more of a union between them without Byzantium being in any effective position not to be in unison with the Catholic church.
The presence of a Persia with at least some ability to defend itself as an independent nation could push Turks to destroy Khazaria and open the floodgates to the Caucasus. We could see Zoroastrian Turks attacking the Caliphate from the north, roughly a sort of Kiev Rus for the Persians. It depends on what the loss of Mesopotamia does to affect Persian psyche.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
If I remember, the Franks conquered most of Italy when the Pope made a plea to the Frankish king Charlemagne to save him from the Lombards. It would be pretty interesting and cool to have either the Franks or another Christian barbarian group to move into Italy and defend the Papacy if the Muslims decide to conquer Sicily and southern Italy early on.