Anglo-France? Or Franco-Britain?

[birdy]

was the union supposed to last into the postwar era or just be temporary?
i dont like asking questions for other people to answer but wikipedia has'nt any info on this.

If they do then prehaps they could have a central government and parliament/senate whatever for dealing between UK/france and the rest of world while the two countrie could keep their own distinctive parliaments/monarchies republicanism. once the pacific was starts they'd have to fight japan which could invade from china.

after the war however it would be issue no1 in first french election and possiby british election and would most likely be dissolved.

of course it is it'snt then a franco-british union still existing in 2006 is interesting.

 

[Gremlin]

Believe somebody posted earlie that there was a clause or agreement that it would only be for the duration of the War, although the Japs joining in could have made for an interesting Pacific campaign!

But considering the personalities of the Leaders at the time and the hitory of the 2 countries I can't see it lasting much beyond VJ day. Although the EC route may have been viable.

 

[Wendell]

Believe somebody posted earlie that there was a clause or agreement that it would only be for the duration of the War, although the Japs joining in could have made for an interesting Pacific campaign!

But considering the personalities of the Leaders at the time and the hitory of the 2 countries I can't see it lasting much beyond VJ day. Although the EC route may have been viable.

Maybe the Union dissolves into civil war

 

[birdy]

if the entire french navy came over to the Anglo-French Union. thjat would help the allies a lot. the french navy had been modernised in the 30s, was the 3rd largest in the world in 1940.

its new cruisers the Dunkerque and strasbourg were designed to be superier the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. they had two huge new battleships the Richelau and almost finished jean bart + many destoyers and other cruisers for use on atlantic convoys etc.

maybe after the war and the union is dissolved britain and france have a 'special relationship'

 

[Gremlin]

we already have a 'special' relationship with the French! it differs slightly from our american relationship -

If the US throws itself in front of a train so would we! if the French threw themselves in front of a train we'd look around and make sure nobody saw us push them!

 

[Thande]

if the French threw themselves in front of a train we'd look around and make sure nobody saw us push them!

I think it's more like we'd chase after the train and beat up the driver for stealing our thunder.

 

[Anaxagoras]

What would the North African campaign look like if the French forces in Tunisa/Algeria/Morocco were still ranked with the Allies? It seems to me that the Italians would be finished off in short order (as they nearly were IOTL by a British force vastly inferior in numbers). And with the French Navy still sailing against the Axis, the ability of the Germans and Italians to supply any troops in North Africa would be almost nil (it was difficult enough IOTL).

Without the committment of a massive British force in North Africa PLUS the French troops, does this mean an Anglo-British landing in France sometime in 1941/42?

 

[Wendell]

The BIG Question...

What does Europe look like after the war? Does this change Japanese strategy?

 

[Hendryk]

France still gets overrun. The NAZI's install a puppet regime who formally surrender so we still have a 2 france system

Tsk tsk. In OTL, France did not surrender, it signed an armistice.
In this TL, I agree with Benedict's hypothesis that the Third Reich would take no chances with a puppet government of uncertain reliability and dubious legitimacy, instead putting the whole country under direct occupation from the start. Which would further bolster the case for resistance.

Does this change Japanese strategy?

Good question. In OTL, a strategic priority for the Japanese was the encirclement of China. They may still seize Indochina as they did the Dutch East Indies.

 

[Gremlin]

Tsk tsk. In OTL, France did not surrender, it signed an armistice.

Whoops how did I make that error - maybe I should edit my post.......Oh hang on! I never remarked that OTL the French surrender, I merely stated that a puppet government would!



Damn post skimmers!

 

[Wozza]

Tsk tsk. In OTL, France did not surrender, it signed an armistice.

An armistice after which a national monument is blown up, millions of the country's young men are taken for industrial labour and criminals are used for internal security purposes.

Thank goodness for France it did not surrender!

 

[Anaxagoras]

In OTL, a strategic priority for the Japanese was the encirclement of China. They may still seize Indochina as they did the Dutch East Indies.

IOTL they went into French Indochina at the "invitation" of the Vichy government, which obviously could not deny them what they wanted. It was from the bases they set up in Indochina that they launched their attacks on Malaya and the Dutch East Indies.

But if a French government-in-exile was still allied to the British and fighting the Axis, the Japanese would not have been able to do such a thing. They would have had to take Indochina by military attack. It changes the entire nature of the Pacific War.

 

[Hendryk]

An armistice after which a national monument is blown up, millions of the country's young men are taken for industrial labour and criminals are used for internal security purposes.

Yeah, well, I never said it was a glorious page of French history. Obviously, with Pétain, France did sink pretty low. But still, an armistice isn't a surrender, and if any lurking neocon reads these lines, my time on this forum won't have been wasted.

Besides, when the other party happens to be the Third Reich, it's not like you can expect much leniency in defeat.

 

[birdy]

I think Churchill strategy before Rommel arrived in North Africa was to sweep Italy out and then launch raids or even amphibous invasions of Sciliy or sardina in 1941. if NA is clared of Italians due to presence of french. prehaps this scenario takes place. I belive he then wanted to mount raids to prepare for an invasion of mainland europe in 1942. possibly italy is inavded sooner or Greece or even Norway in 1942.

if they invade Sciliy then is malta safe. that means no malta convoys to drain strength. RN would'nt lose so many ships and men in MED. might they go east?.

 

[Wendell]

Yeah, well, I never said it was a glorious page of French history. Obviously, with Pétain, France did sink pretty low. But still, an armistice isn't a surrender, and if any lurking neocon reads these lines, my time on this forum won't have been wasted.

Besides, when the other party happens to be the Third Reich, it's not like you can expect much leniency in defeat.

From what I recall, the French found the Reich's terms shockingly lenient.

 

[benedict XVII]

I think Churchill strategy before Rommel arrived in North Africa was to sweep Italy out and then launch raids or even amphibous invasions of Sciliy or sardina in 1941. if NA is clared of Italians due to presence of french. prehaps this scenario takes place. I belive he then wanted to mount raids to prepare for an invasion of mainland europe in 1942. possibly italy is inavded sooner or Greece or even Norway in 1942.

if they invade Sciliy then is malta safe. that means no malta convoys to drain strength. RN would'nt lose so many ships and men in MED. might they go east?.

I would assume the French would have kept Corsica as well as North Africa. From there, expect Sicily and Sardinia to fall in Allied hands pretty fast. The French were totally mad at the Italians for the "stab in the back", and would have made them pay dearly. Expect the Italian Tyrrenean coast to be regularly bombed by the French navy, as they had done to Genoa in June 1940.

 

[benedict XVII]

From what I recall, the French found the Reich's terms shockingly lenient.

The French (I mean Pétain and his followers) found the terms OK, in the sense that they kept the Free Zone, the Empire or the fleet, and terrtotial integrity was maintained.

Of course, what the Germans did out of it was another story, starting with the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine. The Italians also played a digusting blackmail thanks to the fact that the French-German armistice would take effect only when there would be a French-Italian armistice. That's what enabled them to get a couple of ships in replacement of the ones the French had sunk.

 

[benedict XVII]

IOTL they went into French Indochina at the "invitation" of the Vichy government, which obviously could not deny them what they wanted. It was from the bases they set up in Indochina that they launched their attacks on Malaya and the Dutch East Indies.

But if a French government-in-exile was still allied to the British and fighting the Axis, the Japanese would not have been able to do such a thing. They would have had to take Indochina by military attack. It changes the entire nature of the Pacific War.

Fully concur. The fall of Singapore was already almost avoidable. With the French Pacific squadron against them and a land campaign in Indochina, the Japanese would have been in serious trouble.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Fully concur. The fall of Singapore was already almost avoidable. With the French Pacific squadron against them and a land campaign in Indochina, the Japanese would have been in serious trouble.

What was the strength of the French Pacific squadron? I know they beat up on Thailand during a border dispute in 1941, but would it have been enough to present any trouble for the Japanese?

 

[Wendell]

The French (I mean Pétain and his followers) found the terms OK, in the sense that they kept the Free Zone, the Empire or the fleet, and terrtotial integrity was maintained.

Of course, what the Germans did out of it was another story, starting with the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine. The Italians also played a digusting blackmail thanks to the fact that the French-German armistice would take effect only when there would be a French-Italian armistice. That's what enabled them to get a couple of ships in replacement of the ones the French had sunk.

Germany annexed from France lands that had previously been German. Granted, the whole northern part of the country was occupied.