Alternatives to Torsedillas

[Thande]

The Treaty of Torsedillas was intended to prevent clashed between Spanish and Portuguese explorers and conquistadores as they carved up these mysterious new lands reeking of promise (and gold. Lots of gold). In the end, it failed repeatedly at this for a variety of reasons, partly to do with the Iberian Union upsetting matters, but mainly because the Pope's line was drawn when knowledge of the New World was still in its infancy, and only gave a sliver of Brazil to Portugal. In the end, as we know, Portugal expanded far past this to produce the huge Brazil we all know and love, clashing repeatedly with Spain along the way.

But what if the Treaty had been drawn up differently? We can't expect the Pope just to move the line to the west when it was unknown how large the New World might be. But what if the line had been one of latitude rather than longitude? (A justification for this might be the fact that latitude was much, much easier to calculate than longitude at that time, meaning the other nation would have less excuse for its people turning up on the wrong side of the line).

Say the Equator, or to favour Spain a bit more, maybe something like 15º South. Everything north of this Spanish, everything south Portuguese. Plausible? (A knock-on effect might be for Spain to have a go at colonising North America north of Florida; they did briefly attempt this with an abortive fort in South Carolina in the 16th century in OTL).

 

[Falastur]

Bear in mind that the Treaty of Tordesillas was not so much drawn to give Spain the lion's share of America but to protect Portugal's claim of monopoly on the right to rule Africa and to control trade with India and China...

 

[Gonzaga]

The Treaty of Torsedillas was intended to prevent clashed between Spanish and Portuguese explorers and conquistadores as they carved up these mysterious new lands reeking of promise (and gold. Lots of gold). In the end, it failed repeatedly at this for a variety of reasons, partly to do with the Iberian Union upsetting matters, but mainly because the Pope's line was drawn when knowledge of the New World was still in its infancy, and only gave a sliver of Brazil to Portugal. In the end, as we know, Portugal expanded far past this to produce the huge Brazil we all know and love, clashing repeatedly with Spain along the way.

But what if the Treaty had been drawn up differently? We can't expect the Pope just to move the line to the west when it was unknown how large the New World might be. But what if the line had been one of latitude rather than longitude? (A justification for this might be the fact that latitude was much, much easier to calculate than longitude at that time, meaning the other nation would have less excuse for its people turning up on the wrong side of the line).

Say the Equator, or to favour Spain a bit more, maybe something like 15º South. Everything north of this Spanish, everything south Portuguese. Plausible? (A knock-on effect might be for Spain to have a go at colonising North America north of Florida; they did briefly attempt this with an abortive fort in South Carolina in the 16th century in OTL).

That's easy: make Columbus landing in the Americas happen much further North. By 1492 the agreementing between Portugal and Castile ruling the division of new found lands was the Treaty of Alcáçovas, which stated that all lands South from the Canary Islands would belong to Portugal, while Castile had right to any new lands found North of them. However, after Columbus travel, the Spanish discovered that the islands he discovered would be in Portuguese hands according to this treaty. So they convinced the Pope to write the Inter caetera Bull, that first divided the lands in a longitudinal way. The Portuguese didn't agreed with the extesion of territories westwards that they would receive, and then after some negotiations they agreed on the Tordesillas Treaty.

If Columbus arrives further North than the Spanish would probably not press to change the previous treaty. I'm not sure if this situation could be kept for long, but it would be a start to an alternate division (for example, maybe later they just claim more lands to the South, instead of changing the agreement to a longitudinal one).

Here is a map of the line proposed by Alcaçovas (sorry for the low quality):

 

[Thande]

That's easy: make Columbus landing in the Americas happen much further North. By 1492 the agreementing between Portugal and Castile ruling the division of new found lands was the Treaty of Alcáçovas, which stated that all lands South from the Canary Islands would belong to Portugal, while Castile had right to any new lands found North of them. However, after Columbus travel, the Spanish discovered that the islands he discovered would be in Portuguese hands according to this treaty. So they convinced the Pope to write the Inter caetera Bull, that first divided the lands in a longitudinal way. The Portuguese didn't agreed with the extesion of territories westwards that they would receive, and then after some negotiations they agreed on the Tordesillas Treaty.

If Columbus arrives further North than the Spanish would probably not press to change the previous treaty. I'm not sure if this situation could be kept for long, but it would be a start to an alternate division (for example, maybe later they just claim more lands to the South, instead of changing the agreement to a longitudinal one).

Here is a map of the line proposed by Alcaçovas (sorry for the low quality):

Interesting. I guess there would eventually be a rearrangement to give Spain more of the Americas, but in the short term that could have all kinds of weird ramifications - conquistadores facing the Iroquois rather than the Aztecs?

 

[Glen]

Portuguese would gain the gold of the Aztecs and Incas, and have the monopoly on both East and West routes to the Orient, making it even richer than OTL, and probably longer lived as an empire. Portuguese would be the main language of Mesoamerica, the Caribbean, and South America. Still have those darned English, French, and Dutch interlopers horning in, though.

Spain without a clear claim and early access to Aztec and Incan wealth, or a way to get to China, is going to be at a financial disadvantage compared to OTL. They will make a stab at colonizing the East Coast of North America, but I suspect they will lose out to the English and French with whom they will be in competition. Spain is likely to become more focused on Europe and be only a small time player in colonization.

If this timeline at least initially follows a similar pattern of English and French exploration and colonization, I could imagine the French being pushed to the lands West of the Mississippi, but no further, and may start colonizing what IOTL would be the American West. East of the Mississippi and North of its drainage basin would be the English. Hmmm, maybe the English and French eventually agree to a border at the 48th parallel between the Mississippi and the Continental Divide, and one at the 42nd paralllel from the Divide to the Pacific....

Maybe the Continent of North America is simply called America, whereas the entirety of the South American Continent is ITTL referred to as Brazil.

 

[Gonzaga]

I still think that even in this scenario Mexico would eventually fall to the Spanish. The Portuguese wouldn't initially change their focus from the route around Africa, and so the first region of the Americas they would eventually explore would still be Brazil. It would still be most important to them to secure the South Atlantic route to India, and so they wouldn't pay attention to lands further North that, after some quick explorations, they would realize do not belong to Asia.

The Spanish would probably try to explore the shores in both directions (North and South), and taking advantage of this initial lack of interest from the Portuguese they would probably make some explorations in the Caribbean. Once they find the Aztecas and their treasures the Portuguese would become more interested in their Western lands, but now Spain would push a new agreement, and since the Habsburgs have more military power Lisbon would have to agree with it, maybe securing the new line of division somewhere in Central America. So no Portuguese Mexico, but Portugal secured Peru (and it would be interesting to see what happen when they find it).

 

[Glen]

I still think that even in this scenario Mexico would eventually fall to the Spanish. The Portuguese wouldn't initially change their focus from the route around Africa, and so the first region of the Americas they would eventually explore would still be Brazil. It would still be most important to them to secure the South Atlantic route to India, and so they wouldn't pay attention to lands further North that, after some quick explorations, they would realize do not belong to Asia.

The Spanish would probably try to explore the shores in both directions (North and South), and taking advantage of this initial lack of interest from the Portuguese they would probably make some explorations in the Caribbean.

I disagree. I don't see the Portuguese and Spain showing interest in each others' purported territory after Torsedillas, so why would they here. The Spanish would likely work their way northward looking (in vain) for a northwest passage, but in the process getting a good idea of the geography of the North American East Coast. However, they won't find anything of particular interest and thus will leave their claim a bit fallow. When interest perks up in the 1600s, they aren't likely to be in the running.

As for the Aztecs, you might be right about the Portuguese not exploring....at first. However, its more likely to be English or French explorers then that do discover them. And once Portugal hears of the riches there, they are likely to become quite assertive. I can see the English or French being driven out of Mesoamerica which the Portuguese then take over.

Once they find the Aztecas and their treasures the Portuguese would become more interested in their Western lands, but now Spain would push a new agreement, and since the Habsburgs have more military power Lisbon would have to agree with it, maybe securing the new line of division somewhere in Central America. So no Portuguese Mexico, but Portugal secured Peru (and it would be interesting to see what happen when they find it).

I don't know that either of us is 'right'. However, I don't think that the Spanish move south early in such a timeline, which means they are likely to be cut out there.

 

[Atom]

Interesting. I guess there would eventually be a rearrangement to give Spain more of the Americas, but in the short term that could have all kinds of weird ramifications - conquistadores facing the Iroquois rather than the Aztecs?

Unlikely, considering how far inland they are, and at the time relatively undistinguished from the other confederacies. However, I understand your general point. More likely they would face whatever Atlantic confederacy they happened to find when they landed on the shore. So more like Spanish v Powhatan.

The more interesting point of this scenario I think is the fact the Mesoamerica may be contacted by the Portugese first.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

The thing about the north-south division is that it assigns the Spanish the mouth of the Mississippi and Northeast Asia while assigning the Portuguese the connecting waters. This will hinder their colonization of the former (since they aren't allowed control of the Florida Straits or any indirect route between the Atlantic and the Gulf of Mexico) and shut them off from the latter entirely (while not allowing the Portuguese in either). Regardless of the Aztecs, when these 2 deficiencies become known there will be a strong interest from both sides for a new division.

 

[fortyseven]

Interesting discussion.

[NOT SERIOUS] How about a 45 degree line through the Azores? Portugal gets the northeast, Spain gets the southwest? [/NOT SERIOUS]

 

[orangnumpanglewat]

This would give the Spanish a reason to knock about European neighbours, most likely Italian minors, once they realized that this line wasn't very fair, because most of everything north of that line was already claimed
I see either a colonial Portuguese wank or a European Spanish wank

But then just like Portuguese Brazil and Spanish Philippines, they'll make excuses for colonies on the other side of the line

 

[Falastur]

This would give the Spanish a reason to knock about European neighbours, most likely Italian minors, once they realized that this line wasn't very fair, because most of everything north of that line was already claimed
I see either a colonial Portuguese wank or a European Spanish wank

The Treaty of Tordesillas stated that it only applied for non-Christian lands. The Pope had absolutely no desire to proclaim that Europe was up for grabs by Spain and Portugal and thus he explicitly wrote it into the treaty that they had no right to extend the treaty to Christendom.

 

[Swan Station]

That's easy: make Columbus landing in the Americas happen much further North.

But wasn't Columbus's landing point sort of pre-determined to be in the Caribbean area, based on the trade winds he was following?

 

[Douglas]

You know, with the possibilities severely limited in the Western Hemisphere, is Spanish Japan a possibility? Or, perhaps, Spain-tries-Isandhlwana-three-centuries-early?

 

[altwere]

I have several thoughts on this. One would the Spanish be interested in conquering Egypt to gain access to the Red Sea, I don't think that the ottomans were there yet.
The Spanish used Cuba as their jump off into Mexico. Having Portugal not very interested in that area may have allowed for some limited trade and allow the Aztecs both some exposure to European Diseases and to both guns and horses. They also might not have though of them as the return of Quetzalcoatl.
When the Portuguese find the Inca, the Incan succession crisis would have been settled, which might have changed the out come. Would the Portuguese have been such a Blitzkreig as the Spanish?

 

[Falastur]

I have several thoughts on this. One would the Spanish be interested in conquering Egypt to gain access to the Red Sea, I don't think that the ottomans were there yet.

Not the most likely scenario ever, unfortunately. The Ottoman Navy in this era was the equivalent of the Royal Navy of the 19th and 20th centuries. It was uncontested in the eastern Mediterranean, and it paid off the pirate Admiral Barbarossa and his 50-ship pirate fleet to harass Spain in the west later in the early 16th century when Spain has the best chance of trying this, (and periodically did similar things before and after) so Spain was well-distracted and wouldn't be able to get a fleet through. Egypt was an Ottoman territory in this era, also, and supposing the Spanish did manage to land a huge army there, they could be cut off from Europe by the Ottoman fleet and would eventually be forced to leave or would die there.

The one time the Ottoman Navy suffered a major defeat in the whole of this multi-century era was the Battle of Lepanto, 1571, and it took the entire fleets of several Mediterranean countries, including Genoa and Venice who NEVER worked together, to pull it off. It was such a great victory that Elizabeth I of England, who by this era was very much anti-Spanish and Protestant, sent her letters of congratulations to all the countries involved to praise their success. How did the Ottomans respond? Within six months they'd built another 100 ships (seriously...) to replace the ones lost and all possible changes in the balance of power were lost before Europe could react.

 

[Gonzaga]

Sorry for bumping this, but I didn't want to start a new thread.

I've recently bought a book about the evolution of the Portuguese (and later Brazilian) borders in South America, and found an interesting information about Columbus' attempt to have his first travel funded by Portugal.

According to the author, Columbus was recalled to Portugal in 1588, as the king John III decided to finnance his idea (first presented and refused in 1584) of reaching the Indies going to the West. The brother of Columbus then went to Lisbon to negotiate it, and was almost getting the royal approval when in December 1588 the fleet of Bartolomeu Dias - that was commissioned to discover if it was possible to go around Africa and reach India - arrived to the port. Until then the fleet was considered as lost at sea, as their travel has spent 16 months. When the news of Dias' discoveries were spread, the king didn't believe there was a reason to finnance Columbus anymore, as it was proved that it was possible to reach India sailing around Africa, and so his brother was dismissed.

But WI Dias fleet had really been lost at sea? Or if he had continued to go to the East instead of going back to Portugal after reaching the mouth of the Bushman's River - he was forced by the crew to go back home after that - and so his travel lasts much more time?

If Dias never comes back, or if his arrival to Portugal happens many months later than IOTL, then John II could have finnanced "Columbus experiment" of reaching East going to the West. Also, according to the author, Columbus plan - if he had had travelled for Portugal - was to set sails from Cape Verde, and not from Azores, because he believe the conditions there were better to a Western travel. So, considering the streams and winds patterns around Cape Verde, do you have any idea where Columbus could have landed?

 

[The Professor]

Sorry for bumping this, but I didn't want to start a new thread.

I've recently bought a book about the evolution of the Portuguese (and later Brazilian) borders in South America, and found an interesting information about Columbus' attempt to have his first travel funded by Portugal.

According to the author, Columbus was recalled to Portugal in 1588, as the king John III decided to finnance his idea (first presented and refused in 1584) of reaching the Indies going to the West. The brother of Columbus then went to Lisbon to negotiate it, and was almost getting the royal approval when in December 1588 the fleet of Bartolomeu Dias - that was commissioned to discover if it was possible to go around Africa and reach India - arrived to the port. Until then the fleet was considered as lost at sea, as their travel has spent 16 months. When the news of Dias' discoveries were spread, the king didn't believe there was a reason to finnance Columbus anymore, as it was proved that it was possible to reach India sailing around Africa, and so his brother was dismissed.

But WI Dias fleet had really been lost at sea? Or if he had continued to go to the East instead of going back to Portugal after reaching the mouth of the Bushman's River - he was forced by the crew to go back home after that - and so his travel lasts much more time?

If Dias never comes back, or if his arrival to Portugal happens many months later than IOTL, then John II could have finnanced "Columbus experiment" of reaching East going to the West. Also, according to the author, Columbus plan - if he had had travelled for Portugal - was to set sails from Cape Verde, and not from Azores, because he believe the conditions there were better to a Western travel. So, considering the streams and winds patterns around Cape Verde, do you have any idea where Columbus could have landed?

Let's go with delaying Dias as it doesn't change Portugal's Africa plans too much (sort of ).
Assuming a Cape Verde travel the trade winds indicate that he'll land somewhere on the Brazil-to-Guyana-to-Venezuela coast as he did on his 3rd Voyage.