Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3
- Thread starter Claymore
- Start date
- Status
marathag
Banned
I do like your creations, that was the only one you had done that really wouldn't have worked.
I'm thinking it would look similar to the Japanese Type 5 Na-To
with a mid drivers compartment and open gun position in the rear, similar to SU-76, but with the far more powerful D-44 /L55 85mm Divisional Gun
for a more mobile gun, it may even need one more roadwheel spliced in to make the fighting compartment long enough
I've done more than a few designs that wouldn't have worked, I don't have Claymore's expertise and knowledge about armoured vehicle designs.
Here's further proof of such.
Alternate Tiger.
Last edited:
I never said it did enter service. If you read closely, I said that it would have been a nightmare IF it had somehow entered service.
What, no trust in the French, who had the largest car industry in the world at the time?
Actually, of all the powers before the war starts, I would have the French as most likely to have tried forming AC brigades or regiments as part of the 'offense to the utmost'
Conversely, Germany's General Staff were well capable of trying motorized/armoured car formations, particularly if they had adopted a strategic plan that prioritized Russia instead of France and you couldn't use Russian rail gauges to move troops and equipment until you'd captured your own rolling stock. If the Kaiser was a car nerd instead of a battleship nerd, that would also help...
As for the British, the BEF was just too small to make much of a difference, even if they had chosen to motorize the whole thing pre-war.
In all cases, there's an easy conceptual leap from horse cavalry to motor cavalry, performing the same breakthrough role. I'm sure someone on every side came up with proposals, only to run up against 100+ years of Capital-T TRADITION. An uphill battle if ever there was one in an age when the infantry charge was still considered credible tactics against fortified positions.
Once the war starts I'm afraid it's a little late on the Western Front for armoured cars to make a difference. It's in the Battle of the Frontiers that one side or the other having 'motorized cavalry' regiments is going to make the biggest impact: once the trenches start being dug then the utility of the armoured car goes the same way as the horse cavalry its supposed to replace and you're left waiting for tanks.
Driftless
Donor
One other point with armored cars: Germany, France, and Great Britain had respectable to high quality road networks at that point, so their automotive industries were logically skewed towards vehicles running on good surfaces (mostly). Yes, I realize that's a gross generalization, but I think with a core of reality. The Russians and much later, the Americans had a mix of road from top quality city streets to gawd-awful country paths that covered much of their land mass. Even then, both Russia and the US automotive industries were skewed towards cars and trucks meant to run on paved streets.
Every countries AC's struggled with mud and mire, especially after the first months of the war. (excluding the Middle East)
Every countries AC's struggled with mud and mire, especially after the first months of the war. (excluding the Middle East)
Indeed, hence my assertion that trying to deploy AC regiments after the Battle of the Frontiers wasn't really going to help. You needed the cross-country/mud-wading ability of tanks to finally break the siege and conditions only got worse as the war went on. There's a much longer window for Germany to start using armoured cars against Russia, but going by historical precedent Germany didn't seem to feel the need to innovate against the Russians when their primary concerns on that front was just getting enough men and shells to counter Russia's massive manpower reserves.
Curse my chronic procrastination, I'd have started that timeline already (because I'd have finished the other idea that I've never started...).
Although if someone had taken this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kégresse_track onboard pre-war, perhaps there could have been half-track units, which might have given enough cross country mobility to stop trench warfare taking hold?
Or even this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_Schneider_P_16
Last edited:
Driftless
Donor
It would take a pretty radical leap of faith for enough pre-war half-tracks to be built in quantity to be impactful. Still, even with a couple of hundred units in use, that might provide a kickstart to earlier use of fully-tracked vehicles. You learn what works and what doesn't. As you note in the Kegresse link, the Russians did have some pre-war experience with small numbers of half-tracks and they had a suitable countryside to put them to work - IF they had made more.
I think something like the Kegresse track would have seen use on armoured cars if AC regiments were already in use at the start of the war and the conversion was considered necessary, for example if the opposing side started using artillery to preemptively chew up the ground to limit AC mobility. I really think you'd need the armoured car as part of normal doctrine before anyone would consider half-tracks.
The AMC P16 is a very good example of what a late-war/post-war heavy armoured car could look like: as the weight of armour and weapons increases, you'd probably want the tracks to take the load. Off the roads it wouldn't be much slower than a multi-axle wheeled car I imagine, if at all.
Of course such a thing did indeed exist. The Russians managed to adapt a number (12) of their British-built Austin Armoured Cars by combining them with a Kegresse track system. While not produced in large numbers and late in the war, the resulting Austin-Kegresse Armourer Car/Halftrack had a respectable performance: weight 5.8–5.9 tons; road speed about 25 km/h; and road range 100 km.
Last edited:
Trust the Russians to develop something that looks utterly hideous and yet retains functionality.
Anyway, that's now added to my fact file for my upcoming TL.
The Goliath was wire remote controlled using early 1940s technology so the idea is sound. Once combined with a microphone, speaker, camera and/or weapons system you can convert vehicles to drones, booby traps,decoys, demolitions tools etc.
Once reliable radio control systems become available their usefulness improves (subject to jamming technology).
Here ya go and the image has miraculously changed too... 😲 😉
If you don't mind opening PDFs, here's a report on remote controlled vehicle borne improvised explosive devices used in the Syrian Civil War.
Thanks mate.- Status