Alternative artillery pieces never made

1930 Britain.

Following successful trials with the Experimental Mechanized Force the British Army orders 100 Birch Guns, mainly to preserve the Vickers workforce during the depression.
 
The larger AA guns of 114-130 mm calibre, dual-purpose destroyer/secondary naval guns, and field gun counterparts to 155 mm howitzers had near-identical ballistics and shell weights:
Country/gun typeGunCaliber (mm)Shell weight (kg)Barrel length (calibers)Muzzle velocity (m/s)
USSR/naval gun130 mm/50 Pattern 193613033.450870
USSR/AA gun130 mm KS-3013033.463.6970
USSR/field gun122 mm M1931/37 (A-19)1222545800
Germany/naval gun12.7 cm SK C/411272842830
Germany/AA gun12.8 cm FlaK 401272661900
Britain/naval and AA gun4.5" QF Mark I-V1142545746
Britain/field gunBL 4.5" medium field gun1142542.8686
US/naval gun5"/38 Mark 121272538792
US/AA gun120 mm M112022.760945
US/field gun4.5" gun M11142542.8694
Japan/naval gun12.7 cm/50 Type 31272350915
Japan/naval gun12.7 cm/40 Type 8912723.540720
Japan/AA gunType 3 12 cm1202656853
Japan/AA gunType 10 120 mm12020.645825
The Soviets made naval and AA guns both smaller and lighter than the usual (100 mm guns not shown), and Germany and Japan used 105 mm field guns (also not shown), but otherwise it seems a single caliber and type of ammunition around 25 kg would work for all 3 roles. Ideally a single gun could be used for the AA and naval gun roles, like the British 4.5" gun, with a barrel length of about 45 calibers and a muzzle velocity of about 800 m/s. A field gun could have the same barrel length and muzzle velocity (so all 3 would have the same ballistics), but would have to be lighter and be built differently.
 
Soviets tried a universal divisional gun, the A-52 with a higher velocity 76mm with 75 degree elevation and 36- rotation, but that project ended even before Tukhachevsky was on the way out.
A simplified version without the AAA sights and limited traverse from a split trail setup, the F-22, and lower power cartridge to use existing stocks
Since it was quick conversion, it was still overweight for what it did.

The 3" in the M-10 was well liked for artillery missions. The US did a mistake in the 76mm M1, in not using the same cartridge as the M1918, but a 30% smaller case running at 12% higher pressure, so the MV would be similar between the two weapons. They made a new, lighter tube with the performance of a 20 year old gun.
Well, at least it was lighter.
Help me out here - I've read that the 76mm on the Shermans was resisted at first (Abrams himself) because it had less HE explosive power than the regular MV 75mm standard on Shermans. So is the 76mm gun and ammo different on the Shermans than either for the 3 inch on the M10's?

My big what-if for the WW2 era would be the US adapting the 90mm AA gun into weapon that could fit on a vehicle and do the job the Priest 105mm did combined with an anti-tank role - looking like smaller gun Priest. This would involve figuring out how to boost explosive power of the HE round by projecting the bursting charge case back into the propellent space like the German HV 75mm on the Panther while having a standard HV AP round for taking on Armor. This would be occurring and developing with a McNair mindset (how do we get this overseas) combined with new thinking and direction on how to equip armored divisions to rationalize their ammo some and make them more sustainable with a smaller round. Thinking about the L/48 on Stugs - US picks a 50 caliber barrel length. On the ammo, the design compromise on the propellent case doesn't get the muzzle velocity to Panther gun territory, but from the common 2600 fps historically, muzzle velocity from design compromise ends up at say 2800 fps instead of the Kwk 42's 3050 fps - erring on the ability to carry more rounds for the artillery role to take fuller advantage of going from 105mm to 90mm in shell size and appeasing the artillery guys that are not fully on board with the switch. The development is premised on planner/thinkers saying - lets get out in front instead of following the pack. Also, inherent would be accepting for the time being: we cant turret this, but that's okay for now. There'd be a production argument too - we can save money and try to solve too problems at once. This would involve different strong personalities than OTL - some of the ones in OTL dying in car or plane crashes or training accidents maybe. Maybe its starts with an uncommonly laterally thinking AA guy with close friends in tanks and infantry.

I'm thinking about the comparison between 90mm and the bore of the long serving 25 pdr.

Another what if - a Russian version of the M7 Priest on a T34 chassis mounting a 122mm M1938 M-30 Howitzer.

Finally, regarding the Russians here's really eye-opening video on Russian artillery in WW2:
The Red God of War? Soviet Artillery in WWII
 

marathag

Banned
Help me out here - I've read that the 76mm on the Shermans was resisted at first (Abrams himself) because it had less HE explosive power than the regular MV 75mm standard on Shermans. So is the 76mm gun and ammo different on the Shermans than either for the 3 inch on the M10's?
yep, same projectile.

Liked when out of the M10, not so much from the Sherman
Anyway, the 75mm M48 HE shell was 14.75 pounds, of which 1.47 pounds was TNT filling at 1974fps, while the 3" or 76mm M42A1 HE
was 12.87 pounds and 0.86 pound TNT or 0.85 pounds of a 50/50 mix of TNT and Amatol burster at 2800fps

Now the US M1903 Seacoast 3" of 55 calibers that had an even larger powder capacity case than the 3" M7 of 50 calibers, that was based off the M1918,( that was based of the M1902, as well) of 284.5 c.i. vs the 205.6 of the M7 or 146.5 of the M1 76mm
That big round, almost 38 inches long, 4 inches longer than the one used in the M7, had a little lower pressure and fired at the same 2800fps as the later, smaller cases.
call this a 76.2x690R case with a 118mm rim

The 17 pounder, that had a case capacity of 300 cubic inches. Size- that was 76.2x583R with a 135mm rim
The Panther was 75x640R with a 122mm rim, never could find the case capacity

You just needed someone in Army Ordnance to update the M1903 Seacoast for modern construction for higher pressure operation, and you could have a real good 3000+fps hole puncher before WWII starts
 
They did build and use that, though this belongs more in Alternate History armored fighting vehicles, rather than artillery.
That's more of a direct fire assault gun, at least how it was used, was thinking more of something that could do direct fire, but was open top and doing Indirect like a Priest.
yep, same projectile.

Liked when out of the M10, not so much from the Sherman
Anyway, the 75mm M48 HE shell was 14.75 pounds, of which 1.47 pounds was TNT filling at 1974fps, while the 3" or 76mm M42A1 HE
was 12.87 pounds and 0.86 pound TNT or 0.85 pounds of a 50/50 mix of TNT and Amatol burster at 2800fps

Now the US M1903 Seacoast 3" of 55 calibers that had an even larger powder capacity case than the 3" M7 of 50 calibers, that was based off the M1918,( that was based of the M1902, as well) of 284.5 c.i. vs the 205.6 of the M7 or 146.5 of the M1 76mm
That big round, almost 38 inches long, 4 inches longer than the one used in the M7, had a little lower pressure and fired at the same 2800fps as the later, smaller cases.
call this a 76.2x690R case with a 118mm rim

The 17 pounder, that had a case capacity of 300 cubic inches. Size- that was 76.2x583R with a 135mm rim
The Panther was 75x640R with a 122mm rim, never could find the case capacity

You just needed someone in Army Ordnance to update the M1903 Seacoast for modern construction for higher pressure operation, and you could have a real good 3000+fps hole puncher before WWII starts
Basically an American home grown 17 pdr.
 
Not seeing something that drastically changes the look of modern artillery so far. Soo... the French put this into mass production for their own army and that of allies with the start of war in 1914.


As seen in its Russian disguise as the M1910 howitzer this is a nasty piece of work to be facing, effective and with a heavy punch, by 1917 is is part of the standard divisional artillery in French and French Minor ally divisions and thus finds its way in large numbers to the US army in France. When a new generation of howitzer are designed in the 1930s they are designed to 120mm as well.

And this dear reader is how 120mm became the standard artillery caliber in place of 105mm in the west just like 122mm had became in the east.
 

Nick P

Donor
Martlet 4 - the rocket designed by Gerald Bull for firing from a 110ft long gun. To be used in testing High Altitude Research Programs with the intention of reaching space directly.
Let's say that funding is found for this project in 1968 allowing it to continue for several years.
By the 1980s it is both possible and cost-effective to launch a small satellite into orbit using a very large artillery piece and a suitable rocket projectile.

This replaces expensive single-shot rocket launches that can only be done on good weather days with the possibility of twice daily shots in all but the worst storms. Improved GPS and satellite phone networks are the first beneficiaries of this, followed by spy satellites.
NASA gets to focus on the Space Shuttle and future Mars missions.
Gerald Bull may even get to die of old age.
 
If we’re including guns that were made but never got their chance to shine, I vote for the Skoda vz.30, a product improved vz.28. It had two variants a 10cm howitzer and a 8cm (actually 76mm) field gun, both on the same carriage. What was cool about them? First the elevation is -8 to +80! They can be used as mortars. Second the gun can be broken down to 3 pieces, each towed by 2 horses. This is makes them more mobile in rough terrain where you can’t run a 6 horse team. The box tailed gun comes with a circular platform and 360 traverse, just like British 25 pounder. Like that gun, these Czech guns could probably perform in anti-tank role. The 76mm field gun fired a 8kg shell, which is heavy for the caliber. Most field guns of this class had. 6.5kg shell. Comparing the 10cm howitzer to the WWII German 105mm, it‘s lighter, fires a slightly heavier shell to the same range, and has that massive elevation advantage. Only a couple of hundred were produced.

10-cm-houfnice-vz30-1.jpg
 
Martlet 4 - the rocket designed by Gerald Bull for firing from a 110ft long gun. To be used in testing High Altitude Research Programs with the intention of reaching space directly.
Let's say that funding is found for this project in 1968 allowing it to continue for several years.
By the 1980s it is both possible and cost-effective to launch a small satellite into orbit using a very large artillery piece and a suitable rocket projectile.

This replaces expensive single-shot rocket launches that can only be done on good weather days with the possibility of twice daily shots in all but the worst storms. Improved GPS and satellite phone networks are the first beneficiaries of this, followed by spy satellites.
NASA gets to focus on the Space Shuttle and future Mars missions.
Gerald Bull may even get to die of old age.

And when the Soviets realize that if it can put a small satellite into orbit, it can put a small nuclear device for a FOBS mission into orbit, we have an all new arms race.
 
And when the Soviets realize that if it can put a small satellite into orbit, it can put a small nuclear device for a FOBS mission into orbit, we have an all new arms race.
The Chinese tried to make gold from lead and invented gun powder

Its the way of Humanity turning ploughs into spears
 

marathag

Banned
And when the Soviets realize that if it can put a small satellite into orbit, it can put a small nuclear device for a FOBS mission into orbit, we have an all new arms race.
H-Bombs and 'small' do not mix together well, as well as a RV bus to make it happen.
 
H-Bombs and 'small' do not mix together well, as well as a RV bus to make it happen.

Any satellite big enough to fit a commercially or intelligence gathering useful payload, it going to be big enough to fit a 100kt nuclear warhead and RV bus.
 

marathag

Banned
Any satellite big enough to fit a commercially or intelligence gathering useful payload, it going to be big enough to fit a 100kt nuclear warhead and RV bus.
Martlet IV, with rocket assist, would have had a 200 pound payload with the HARP project.
 
Martlet 4 - the rocket designed by Gerald Bull for firing from a 110ft long gun. To be used in testing High Altitude Research Programs with the intention of reaching space directly.
Let's say that funding is found for this project in 1968 allowing it to continue for several years.
By the 1980s it is both possible and cost-effective to launch a small satellite into orbit using a very large artillery piece and a suitable rocket projectile.

This replaces expensive single-shot rocket launches that can only be done on good weather days with the possibility of twice daily shots in all but the worst storms. Improved GPS and satellite phone networks are the first beneficiaries of this, followed by spy satellites.
Very unlikely. Spy satellites are necessarily very large because of their optics (for optical satellites) or radio dishes (for signals intelligence and radar satellites), and so are an extremely poor fit for something that can only launch small objects into space. Actually, for optical satellites the optics are also fairly delicate, so hardening them against the shock of a cannon launch would be rather hard even if they could be scaled down appropriately (which they could not). Likewise, GPS and communications satellites have to be fairly large to accommodate their communications gear (Starlink satellites, for instance, which are regarded as being pretty small, still weigh about 500 260 kg each, five two and a half times the payload of the Martlet IV), and in the former case have comparatively delicate atomic clocks on board (and need them). You might be able to harden the electronics gear to handle being shot out of a cannon, but hardening an atomic clock...? That's going to be difficult and expensive. Also, GPS satellites need to be in much higher orbits than cannon launch could practically achieve, as do many communications satellites (but not satellite phone satellites).

Moreover, the utility of cannon launch generally is...questionable, at least at the present stage. Between the shock issues and the small achievable payloads, they just can't actually launch a lot of the things that you might want to launch. What they're really good for is launching lots of largely or entirely inert cargo like propellant, water, pressurized gases, or similar things at a fairly low cost, but that only has utility if you already have substantial space activity like a large-scale Mars program or space manufacturing. Otherwise, it doesn't really do anything useful better than a rocket--twice-a-day launches regardless of weather are only useful if you actually have that many payloads to launch and need to make schedules, versus the current actual situation of few payloads that aren't particularly time-dependent. It's the classic chicken-and-egg problem of non-rocket spaceflight, meaning that in essence you need to have launch prices come down sufficiently to enable large-scale usage of space before it makes economic sense to develop non-rocket forms of launch--which are often touted as the only means to bringing down launch prices sufficiently!
 
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Very unlikely. Spy satellites are necessarily very large because of their optics (for optical satellites) or radio dishes (for signals intelligence and radar satellites), and so are an extremely poor fit for something that can only launch small objects into space. Actually, for optical satellites the optics are also fairly delicate, so hardening them against the shock of a cannon launch would be rather hard even if they could be scaled down appropriately (which they could not). Likewise, GPS and communications satellites have to be fairly large to accommodate their communications gear (Starlink satellites, for instance, which are regarded as being pretty small, still weigh about 500 260 kg each, five two and a half times the payload of the Martlet IV), and in the former case have comparatively delicate atomic clocks on board (and need them). You might be able to harden the electronics gear to handle being shot out of a cannon, but hardening an atomic clock...? That's going to be difficult and expensive. Also, GPS satellites need to be in much higher orbits than cannon launch could practically achieve, as do many communications satellites (but not satellite phone satellites).

Moreover, the utility of cannon launch generally is...questionable, at least at the present stage. Between the shock issues and the small achievable payloads, they just can't actually launch a lot of the things that you might want to launch. What they're really good for is launching lots of largely or entirely inert cargo like propellant, water, pressurized gases, or similar things at a fairly low cost, but that only has utility if you already have substantial space activity like a large-scale Mars program or space manufacturing. Otherwise, it doesn't really do anything useful better than a rocket--twice-a-day launches regardless of weather are only useful if you actually have that many payloads to launch and need to make schedules, versus the current actual situation of few payloads that aren't particularly time-dependent. It's the classic chicken-and-egg problem of non-rocket spaceflight, meaning that in essence you need to have launch prices come down sufficiently to enable large-scale usage of space before it makes economic sense to develop non-rocket forms of launch--which are often touted as the only means to bringing down launch prices sufficiently!

What about it’s role as long range artillery? What would be the range of a super gun firing a maneuvering boost-glide vehicle?
 
What about it’s role as long range artillery? What would be the range of a super gun firing a maneuvering boost-glide vehicle?
Not much. It’s obviously not mobile, short of maybe building a purpose-built monitor, and almost certainly too inaccurate to do anything unless you use nukes. Even then, I doubt it would be capable of doing anything but blowing up cities without a guided warhead, which is very technically difficult to do (look into modern guided artillery projectiles for examples). Scaled-down the technology is useful, of course, but then you’re just talking about rocket-assisted projectiles, hardly revolutionary.
 
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