AS building a high seas fleet was a major reason for their political conflicts and tension pre-WWI, I'd imagine they would be relieved. After all, without ships, those tanks can't make it to Britain.
Alternate Kriegsmarine
- Thread starter David Floyd
- Start date
Those Tanks can't make it to Britain...
...no seriously, I feel like they'll sink in the Channel before they even make it halfway.
But in seriousness, you will need some serious firepower to challenge the Royal Navy, not to say that they probably could've done better with a different doctrine, but considering war with Britain, it would be downright impossible to challenge them otherwise (and near impossible to starve them out.)
thaddeus
Donor
UK policy, under all political parties and over centuries, was to prevent a Continental hegemony, even if they threw this policy out the window they have a durable alliance with France to support.
thaddeus
Donor
would have the benefit that bulk of fleet could remain coal fired, so no fuel shortages. they had a prototype torpedo boat or minelayer, Bremse, that used diesel engines, a class of which would have been very useful along length of Norway coast.
Get Göring removed, build a proper naval air arm for long range maritime commerce interdiction, and to support u-boats. Small fleet-in-being is enough to tie down some British ships, but aircraft carriers are a complete waste of resources for Germany if the plan is not to invade Iceland. FW-200 was quite good already for early war, but purpose built fast torpedo bomber would add some impact. Airplanes and coastal artillery are also sufficient to keep the shores safe.
thaddeus
Donor
am agnostic on aircraft carriers, seems unlikely to have air/naval cooperation to make them worthwhile but the size of OTL Graf Zeppelin seems too ambitious? maybe one or two based off Admiral Hipper class better idea?
although my speculation is always to convert their supply/tankers to handle seaplanes, they had the HE-119 high speed "bomber" that might have been built in small numbers.
Oh, I meant shore based naval air arm operating out of France and Norway. CVs would need to be built in large numbers, which would tip off the British and would not be economical anyway. There’s no way Germans can compete in fleet size anyway.
He-119 looks promising, good find!
thaddeus
Donor
the KM had a decent number of maritime aircraft, my understanding the BV-138 was fairly lackluster though? the DO-24 used what were considered surplus radial engines and seems a better choice, although giving up some range.
would make the same observation on FW-200 as my earlier post on destroyers and torpedo boats, they never had the numbers needed for effective action. maybe Focke-Wulf could have used a subcontractor?
also there were evolutionary changes needed, addition of fifth engine was proposed, guided munitions would have negated some of the maneuvers that caused losses.
have always maintained the HE-119 would have been better use of the complicated "twinned engines" than the HE-177, also that type of engine should have always been a "specialty" project? say a "mash-up" of the HE-119/HE-115 in numbers of 200-300?
if the HE-177 was stillborn (or cancelled after the first batch) they could have further developed the twin fuselage HE-111Z Zwilling, later a twin fuselage HE-119? (they DID scheme a twin fuselage version of DO-335 so not totally out of the question)
Thanks
I'd be interested to see what their top speed was with a full load?
Also they were Diesels - I wonder how long they could maintain that speed as Diesels are not as good as Steam turbines for maintaining 100% power for extended periods
thaddeus
Donor
my understanding the proposed rebuild would have replaced the 150cm and 88cm guns with one caliber "attempt" at DP gun 127cm, resulting in some speed gain (weight savings, also from single munition)
have seen reference to clipper bow installed also (not certain if that was speculation or from the historical planning)
bottom line the Panzerschiffe would/could hit 30 knots (projected)
Khanzeer
Banned
Great point
And most large fast torpedo boats Can function as minelayers too
You think the monitors would be better or coastal battleships? I think later are more flexible
thaddeus
Donor
well they had WWI-era battleships and cruisers, they could be rebuilt as AA escorts rather than complete rebuilds as the Italians attempted.
Khanzeer
Banned
The only problem is in this timeline there will be nothing worthwhile floating that would need an anti aircraft escort
I was thinking if they can just mount heavy caliber guns and very thick Armor on cruiser size ships at the cost of speed , if these vessels operate in littoral and Baltic they would be protected by shore based airpower ,...most of their older larger BB were already scuttled and rebuilding predreads might be too expensive
Maybe look like Finnish battleships,
However these ships would need serious ASW escorts
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Khanzeer
Banned
i'm totally with you on mines but I feel to carry an offensive punch , single or twn eng bombers armed with 500-800kg AP projectiles ( ala Nel and Betty ) escorted by long range fighters would be a serious sea denial force in the north sea and channel
Mines although the biggest killer in almost all naval wars ( and arguably USN worst enemy since WW2) still does not have the same flexibility or fear factor
The problem is that a naval bomber like that is exactly that. A naval bomber. It requires specialized crews and aiming equipment. It is not even great at sea denial. It needs to be guided onto target by recon assets, and is limited by the weather. Worse it is only effective in the Bay of Biscay or the North Sea. Scratch Biscay because you can't predict the fall of France.
That is why I like mines and recon. They don't need special new equipment or crews, they complement the subs and raiders, and don't need the fall of France.
That is why I like mines and recon. They don't need special new equipment or crews, they complement the subs and raiders, and don't need the fall of France.
thaddeus
Donor
the KM rebuilt Hessen as a target ship, adding to length, deck armor, and replaced engines. they also drafted the older ships into service as AA batteries to counter the Allied bombing raids. https://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/aabattery/index.html
they also enlisted over 100 large commercial ships https://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/minehunter/sperrbrecher/index.html that Allies termed "heavy flak ships"
in the case of the former they needed to overhaul the engines, the latter they needed to replace them in their role of sperrbrecher with smaller trawlers (which they planned later)
my point not that you would have an armada to invade UK but rather a "scratch fleet" to shield the M-boats, MFPs, and fishing craft assembled.
as far as heavily armored cruisers, they dismissed that idea when considering designs for Panzerschiff in favor of more usable ships?
believe that is a dated concept, my suggestion for "recycling" older and captured warships as guard ships/AA escorts (whatever term you choose) only projected because of their paucity of ships.
Deleted member 94680
Build some BBs (not panzerschiff) to maintain the fleet in being threat. Build better cruisers than the French and British to threaten commerce. These superior cruisers will then require WAllied BBs or BCs to hunt them down.
The idea is to spread the WAllied heavies as far as possible, hopefully encourage a new build programme as well.
Have designs and a few examples of longer range U-boats ready to go as soon as possible.
When War is declared, your cruisers do a bit of raiding, calling WAllied escorts and hunters far and wide. Meanwhile, a crash build programme of U-boats is launched to ramp up numbers of the real raiders.
Any resources left should be directed into larger and better coastal craft.
The idea is to spread the WAllied heavies as far as possible, hopefully encourage a new build programme as well.
Have designs and a few examples of longer range U-boats ready to go as soon as possible.
When War is declared, your cruisers do a bit of raiding, calling WAllied escorts and hunters far and wide. Meanwhile, a crash build programme of U-boats is launched to ramp up numbers of the real raiders.
Any resources left should be directed into larger and better coastal craft.