Alternate King George V class battleship

I actually only used Richelieu for comparison's sake and to figure out how much the quad turret would weight if using 15 in gun. Actual weight calculation was done by tweaking KGV design. Of course, this somewhat overstates actual weight of my design, as Richelieu turret face had 17 in armour compared to 12,75 in for KGV. Reducing turret face to 15 in might save 500 - 700 tons for a two-turret design compared to 17 in face. How many battleships suffered turret face penetrations anyway?

BTW, how much weight did Nelson's / Richelieu's all-forward main gun arrangement really save?
The Richelieus? Small but significant . The French had to shave some armor off Gascogne to try and achieve the same displacement: 10mm off the belt, 20mm off the magazine deck, and 10mm off the machinery deck. Some of this weight saved went into another pair of 100mm mounts, and despite the reductions Gascogne was expected to be about 500 tons heavier than Richelieu. So somewhere between 500 and 1000 tons - I don't know how to do weight calculations for deck armor - which is pretty significant on a tight treaty-limited design.

The Nelsons? A lot. The Royal Navy penned a 35,000-ton treaty battleship in the late 20s when the building holiday was still expected to end 1931 with no further caliber restrictions. I don't have all the details, but on 35,000 tons, despite advances in machinery weight, it was no faster, had thinner belt armor, and one less 16" gun. That it had another half-inch of deck armor over the machinery, and 8 4.7" AA in between-decks twins rather than six in open pedestals is nowhere near enough to compensate. Overall, I'd guesstimate anywhere from 1500-2000 tons saved overall; the new ship's belt might have been thinner but I believe it was longer. If the belt is overall lighter that's even more weight saved.

As for how many battleships suffered turret face penetrations - maybe Bismarck, Scharnhorst, and Gneisenau. Otherwise the list is mostly battlecruisers at Jutland.

Edit: If you'll accept predreadnoughts, Fuji and possibly Mikasa and Peresvet at Yellow Sea. Oslyaba and Suvorov suffered knocked-out turrets at Tsushima but that was probably blast effect rather than penetration. Dunkerque at Mers-El-Kebir and Retvizan at Yellow Sea also took turret face hits that didn't penetrate.
 
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Any merit in having just two turrets in the front, each with 3 16in guns?
You people can sort out other details :)
 
Any merit in having just two turrets in the front, each with 3 16in guns?
You people can sort out other details :)
Not really. That would leave her severely outgunned by every battleship afloat. Including the Twins.
It would also mean further delays as they get a new 16" gun ready.

Though I wouldn't say they're that badly off. 6 16" is kind of light but they're not going to be outgunned by the Scharnhorsts.
 
The other excuse for DoY at North Cape is that it's normal for output to suffer considerably in prolonged shoots. USS Idaho's output in a 1942 practice shoot and, apparently, USS Massachusetts at Casablanca, for example.
 
The other excuse for DoY at North Cape is that it's normal for output to suffer considerably in prolonged shoots. USS Idaho's output in a 1942 practice shoot and, apparently, USS Massachusetts at Casablanca, for example.
The language used on the Navweaps page - "missed firing opportunities" - leads me to believe this wasn't the problem. The data given suggests 68 or 69 total salvo opportunities, which over a two-hour engagement is about a salvo every two minutes. And that's assuming ten-gun salvos. Half-salvos would put her right into similar territory to Idaho's firing trial and interwar trials with the Colorados. Speaking of...

But they did fine mid/late war in comparison to other ships in real actions look at the stoppage rates for missed gun salvoes in the later battles they are as good if not better that anybody else in long battles in rough weather, I think its more a combination or being rushed into fights before trials (POW especially) and keeping notes about it in English....
The South Dakotas did just fine at Casablanca and off Okinawa, with far fewer casualties and far less serious ones as well compared to Duke of York at North Cape. And I don't think all the errors Duke of York suffered can be attributed solely to the rough weather.
 
Part 3 D,

Yes everybody interpreted the rules as they please, and once US did it to increase elevation RN did the same (but only to the 4 rebuilds?), but early on ie 34/36 when you need to make the plan this might stop you?
"No retained capital ships or aircraft-carriers shall be reconstructed......No alterations in side armour, in calibre, number or general type of mounting of main armament shall be permitted"
Weren't they planning to give Hood a uniform 12" belt by stripping out the 5 and 7" strakes, having the 12" belt go to where the 7" strake had been and cap it with a 4 -5"deck?
Doesn't that violate the treaty? May show the British were starting to look for ways around the treaties, unless said clause was thrownout with the escalator clause in place.

Re the KGVs...
A triple 14 maybe?
It's only down a gun, probably saves a decent bit of weight and the British have more experience with the triple a lot, trying to sort out Nelrods issues, it's only one gun less and can probably allow for an extra knot or two of speed.
Same armour scheme.
Brits seemed turned off by the all forward layout after the Nelsons, almost all designs prior in the interwar (starting in the G3 N3 design process) had the all forward to some degree, while the mini battleships designed immediately post Nelsons had a conventional layout.
 
No retained capital ships or aircraft-carriers shall be reconstructed......No alterations in side armour, in calibre, number or general type of mounting of main armament shall be permitted"
Weren't they planning to give Hood a uniform 12" belt by stripping out the 5 and 7" strakes, having the 12" belt go to where the 7" strake had been and cap it with a 4 -5"deck?
Doesn't that violate the treaty? May show the British were starting to look for ways around the treaties, unless said clause was thrownout with the escalator clause in place.
But I think all the RN rebuilds that through about striping side protection where after the time you need to start or at least order the "KVG" equivalents or they will be late and that's the worse option of anything? ie you need to order by 35 (guns/mounts/engines)-36(hull) or its to late and Hood rebuilds would be later post 2LNT and its fall...?
 
"No retained capital ships or aircraft-carriers shall be reconstructed......No alterations in side armour, in calibre, number or general type of mounting of main armament shall be permitted"
Weren't they planning to give Hood a uniform 12" belt by stripping out the 5 and 7" strakes, having the 12" belt go to where the 7" strake had been and cap it with a 4 -5"deck?
Doesn't that violate the treaty? May show the British were starting to look for ways around the treaties, unless said clause was thrownout with the escalator clause in place.

Re the KGVs...
A triple 14 maybe?
It's only down a gun, probably saves a decent bit of weight and the British have more experience with the triple a lot, trying to sort out Nelrods issues, it's only one gun less and can probably allow for an extra knot or two of speed.
Same armour scheme.
Brits seemed turned off by the all forward layout after the Nelsons, almost all designs prior in the interwar (starting in the G3 N3 design process) had the all forward to some degree, while the mini battleships designed immediately post Nelsons had a conventional layout.
That's from Hood's 1941 rebuild, by which point the treaties were long since a dead letter.

The problem with KGV's turrets isn't the quad mount, the twin was just as buggy. It was the rushed design plus the already scarce design resources being split between two different turret designs. Triple 15" from the start is the best cure for all of this, it gives more time to design the turrets and the Brits don't need to design two different large-caliber turrets.
 
But I think all the RN rebuilds that through about striping side protection where after the time you need to start or at least order the "KVG" equivalents or they will be late and that's the worse option of anything? ie you need to order by 35 (guns/mounts/engines)-36(hull) or its to late and Hood rebuilds would be later post 2LNT and its fall...?
Might be wrong, but I don't think any of the other rebuild had side armour stripped and then beefed up, deck armour of course, but that's not mentioned in the treaty.
The plans for Hoods rebuild indeed along with those for Nelson and Rodney were under the DNCs notes in 1938, so the planning would've been pre LNT2s collapse in 39.
What month the escalator clause was invoked would be interesting to know.
 
What month the escalator clause was invoked would be interesting to know.
1 April 1937 I think at last for guns, so by then any rebuilding would becoming unlimited at least in minds planing for the future RN?

No capital ship shall carry a gun with a calibre exceeding 14 in. (356 mm.); provided however that if any of the Parties to the Treaty for the Limitation of Naval Armament signed at Washington on 6 February 1922, should fail to enter into an agreement to conform to this provision prior to the date of the coming into force of the present Treaty, but in any case not later than 1 April 1937, the maximum calibre of gun carried by capital ships shall be 16 in. (406 mm.).
 
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The language used on the Navweaps page - "missed firing opportunities" - leads me to believe this wasn't the problem. The data given suggests 68 or 69 total salvo opportunities, which over a two-hour engagement is about a salvo every two minutes. And that's assuming ten-gun salvos. Half-salvos would put her right into similar territory to Idaho's firing trial and interwar trials with the Colorados. Speaking of...


The South Dakotas did just fine at Casablanca and off Okinawa, with far fewer casualties and far less serious ones as well compared to Duke of York at North Cape. And I don't think all the errors Duke of York suffered can be attributed solely to the rough weather.

I was not aware that DOY suffered casualties during north cape?

Again the foibles and fortes of British gunnery is very well documented and relatively easy to find

Do we have a similar wealth of data for other nations output during battle and did any of them fire as many salvos?

I tried looking a few years back and was unable to find any engagements that were of equivalent length or any data on missed shots through malfunction and failed drill etc

My personnel opinion is that these giant turrets were very complicated machines moving shells of 3/4 of a ton or more out from a magazine and raised the height of a block of flats every 30 seconds or so and I suspect that issues did occur for all battleship types.

I would be very interested to see a proper AAR for the SoDaks
 
I was not aware that DOY suffered casualties during north cape?

Again the foibles and fortes of British gunnery is very well documented and relatively easy to find

Do we have a similar wealth of data for other nations output during battle and did any of them fire as many salvos?

I tried looking a few years back and was unable to find any engagements that were of equivalent length or any data on missed shots through malfunction and failed drill etc

My personnel opinion is that these giant turrets were very complicated machines moving shells of 3/4 of a ton or more out from a magazine and raised the height of a block of flats every 30 seconds or so and I suspect that issues did occur for all battleship types.

I would be very interested to see a proper AAR for the SoDaks
"Casualties", in this case, refers to errors, breakdowns, and whatnot during firing the guns and make them unable to fire.

As for data on missed shots, this is what I was able to find for some US Navy shooting. With the usual caveats of this being good weather and either exercises or shore bombardment. Data is around at the middle of the page.
 
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