Alexander the Mediocre

[Fabilius]

I have a new point... You are making personal attacks.
Whereas our discussions are best served without those kinds of attacks.

Well I do agree with you on that. srv fan has been rather rude and should apologize for:

HelloLegend, maybe if you could read and posit an argument better, you wouldnt have a minimum wage guard duty for a job.

So because your too stupid to know a major world figure, his influence doesnt exist?

Apart from stupid, he has a point though. Just because you don´t know about a historical character doesn´t mean that it isn´t important.

In any case, what do you consider a legacy then, if Alexander didn´t have one?

I mean, in the far north of Iceland people had heard of Alexander and bothered to write about him on expensive calf skin, in the far south east of asia people had heard about Iskander.

That´s what I call an impact.

There is a difference between the Romans and Alexander. Rome was like a new species of trees eradicating an old forest and replacing it. Alexander was more like a meteor, certainly he went with a bang and once the dust settled he wasn´t there anymore but...

once the dinosaurs are dead a bunch of other things come.

Imagine if the Persian empire had gone on longer, splitted up on it´s own.
Imagine if the world isn´t hellenised...

 

[HelloLegend]

Seriously, Hello Legend, I mean no disrespect . . . but what would you consider as evidence that Alexander had a significant legacy? Because I'm stuck. As far as I can tell, the criteria you've set out mean that the legacy must be known throughout all of society. Given the immense numbers of people unaware of the origins of many many different things, I don't see how it can be conclusively demonstrated that anyone or anything has what you'd term a significant legacy.

Clearly, Alexander's legacy included religious changes, social changes, military reforms, linguistic changes and a whole whack of other changes that reverberated down the years and across great distances.

Is the city of Alexandria in Egypt a sign of his legacy, perhaps?

You make good points. Lots of those things he has done has had huge butterfly effects. I guess my initial statement was sloppy. So I will reform it now... and I want you all to answer based on the reformed statement...

Ready?

Alexander has been largely FORGOTTEN by India and the Middle East.

 

[HueyLong]

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I found this quote on a website...

The Tarim mummies, Chinese mummies of non-Chinese, apparently western, individuals, have been found in the Tarim Basin, such as in the area of Loulan located along the Silk Road 200 km east of Yingpan, dating to as early as 1600 BC and suggesting very ancient contacts between East and West.
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If you credit Alexander with Buddhism contact between India and China, then you are saying without him, there would have been no spread of Buddhist contact? Because if Alexander wasn't born, and Buddhism still spreads to China, then doesn't that negate the influence?

Just as with the Norse visiting America, that did not spark what Greco-Buddhism did.

Now, just because he is no longer known (and he is, as Iskander, a folk hero), does not make him or his empire unimportant. Many people don't know a lot about Enlightenment thinkers, but they definitely have had a lasting effect.

 

[HelloLegend]

Apart from stupid, he has a point though. Just because you don´t know about a historical character doesn´t mean that it isn´t important.

quote]

Did I say that particular Indian person was unimportant?
I think I said...

I don't know him/her, so sorry NO COMMENT.

 

[HueyLong]

You make good points. Lots of those things he has done has had huge butterfly effects. I guess my initial statement was sloppy. So I will reform it now... and I want you all to answer based on the reformed statement...

Ready?

Alexander has been largely FORGOTTEN by India and the Middle East.

But with your other comments (If the goat herder does not know Alexander, he is unimportant), it was essentially, stating that he was unimportant.

 

[srv fan]

HelloLegend, I apologize for the personal attacks. They were uncalled for. I was very frustrated, because there are 4 pages of detailed explanations showing how Alexander affected the modern Middle East. It is extremely irritating when you spend a lot of time writing out a post and finding links to support your argument, and the person you are arguing with doesnt even read them. However, the personal attacks were uncalled for, and I once again apologize.

I certainly do not apologize for saying you don't have an argument, and do not apologize for saying that you don't debate- your argument is, if some random person doesnt know everything about his heritage, it is irrelevant.

 

[HelloLegend]

Just as with the Norse visiting America, that did not spark what Greco-Buddhism did.

Now, just because he is no longer known (and he is, as Iskander, a folk hero), does not make him or his empire unimportant. Many people don't know a lot about Enlightenment thinkers, but they definitely have had a lasting effect.

I see why you are all arguing with me....

To me, "legacy" means acknowledgement of achievements....

To you all, "legacy" means influence and butterflies.

Analogy:

So when I say that Alexander doesn't have much a "legacy" its like saying
that prohibition in the US doesn't have "legacy" because people are consuming alcohol again, as if the 18th amendment had never even existed in the first place. The rebuttal is well look at all the influence the 18th amendment had... JFK is president as a direct result, yada yada yada.
Those are butterflies. However, in the topic itself, we are talking about how people behave...

As with the 18th amendment, Alexander's brief time in India and Afghanistan did not have lasting effects (as in "visible change of habits," not butterflies) of the ordinary peoples. As in visible behavioral differences.

Whereas, Martin Luther King, did create "change of habits" to the ordinary person in Southern USA.

 

[HelloLegend]

HelloLegend, I apologize for the personal attacks. They were uncalled for. I was very frustrated, because there are 4 pages of detailed explanations showing how Alexander affected the modern Middle East. It is extremely irritating when you spend a lot of time writing out a post and finding links to support your argument, and the person you are arguing with doesnt even read them. However, the personal attacks were uncalled for, and I once again apologize.

I certainly do not apologize for saying you don't have an argument, and do not apologize for saying that you don't debate- your argument is, if some random person doesnt know everything about his heritage, it is irrelevant.

My initial statement was not properly "qualified" and was very sloppy.

Throughout history, conflicts are more often started by misunderstanding of the opposing viewpoint. I apologize for getting you all so upset.

 

[MrP]

You make good points. Lots of those things he has done has had huge butterfly effects. I guess my initial statement was sloppy. So I will reform it now... and I want you all to answer based on the reformed statement...

Ready?

Alexander has been largely FORGOTTEN by India and the Middle East.

Right-o. Well, I'm just a Classicist by training, old boy. I can't comment on current thinking in India and the Middle East on Alexander in much detail. Then again, you could tell me that the reforms that occurred during Prime Minister Wellesley's government that ended up with Roman Catholics being able to vote are "largely" forgotten, and I'd agree.

So I take it you do accept that Big A did have a substantial legacy, eh?

Me? Like a dog that can't let go? Perish the thought!

 

[HueyLong]

I see why you are all arguing with me....

To me, "legacy" means acknowledgement of achievements....

To you all, "legacy" means influence and butterflies.

Analogy:

So when I say that Alexander doesn't have much a "legacy" its like saying
that prohibition in the US doesn't have "legacy" because people are consuming alcohol again, as if the 18th amendment had never even existed in the first place. The rebuttal is well look at all the influence the 18th amendment had... JFK is president as a direct result, yada yada yada.
Those are butterflies. However, in the topic itself, we are talking about how people behave...

As with the 18th amendment, Alexander's brief time in India and Afghanistan did not have lasting effects (as in "visible change of habits," not butterflies) of the ordinary peoples. As in visible behavioral differences.

Whereas, Martin Luther King, did create "change of habits" to the ordinary person in Southern USA.

Prohibition did have a major direct effect on American history- JFK being one, and not a butterfly. A butterfly would be something like Mao loses if Prohibition never gets off its feet. No direct involvement really.

Street crime took a rise from Prohibition- something which has changed American lives all over.

The 20s were a rebellious era in America primarily because of Prohibition- one could argue that it built up the culture of the 20s simply by happeneing. Speakeasies would not have been anywhere near the same on culture as a regular bar.

Oh, and Prohibition still lives in quite a few areas in the US- it still has a direct effect.

MLK has had less of an effect on history than Alexander has if you ask me.

And its not simply Alexander's personal influence- its the entire Greek cultural package taht he brought.

 

[srv fan]

As with the 18th amendment, Alexander's brief time in India and Afghanistan did not have lasting effects (as in "visible change of habits," not butterflies) of the ordinary peoples. As in visible behavioral differences.

Alexander's conquests introduced to the people of his empire

a) an entirely new language
b) an entirely new government
c) majority of the population living in entirely new cities

I guess by your logic, if Mexico invaded the US, made us all speak and read Spanish, set up a constitutional monarchy, and made us live in new cities, that would not be a "visible change of habits."

 

[HelloLegend]

Furthermore, recently the movie portrayed his Indian hosts as being very UNWELCOMING of his presence... hence leading back to my "Legacy" statement. While, you are all more educated on this topic, my main point was... this...

The peoples of those areas have largely forgotten him.
In the same way, that America's of the 21st century has forgotten VAUDEVILLE comedy. Though many influences in modern comedians are the direct result of those achievement in that era, I find the legacy is not felt.

 

[HueyLong]

Furthermore, recently the movie portrayed his Indian hosts as being very UNWELCOMING of his presence... hence leading back to my "Legacy" statement. While, you are all more educated on this topic, my main point was... this...

The peoples of those areas have largely forgotten him.
In the same way, that America's of the 21st century has forgotten VAUDEVILLE comedy. Though many influences in modern comedians are the direct result of those achievement in that era, I find the legacy is not felt.

But once again, you are saying that if people do not understand the history, it doesn't matter. Oh, and a movie's }awful} portrayal has no basis in factm and doesn't affect his legacy.

Removing Vaudeville would have huge effects on American comedy.

You are not arguing a legacy, you are arguing popularity.

For example, I can deny that the American Revolution had any effect on American government. It makes just as much sense as such a statement. We're still feeling the legacy of the ARW.

 

[srv fan]

The peoples of those areas have largely forgotten him.

Whether or not they know what they owe to him doesnt lessen in the least his cultural impact.

If an apple fell in 1000 BC and hit Homer on the head, it was still gravity that caused it, regardless of whether he knows it or not.

Whether the average Afghani knows his language is rife with Greek loanwords, his art is high Greek-influenced or not, doesnt change the fact that it very indisputedly is.

 

[HelloLegend]

Alexander's conquests introduced to the people of his empire

a) an entirely new language
b) an entirely new government
c) majority of the population living in entirely new cities

I guess by your logic, if Mexico invaded the US, made us all speak and read Spanish, set up a constitutional monarchy, and made us live in new cities, that would not be a "visible change of habits."

a.) which Indian culture currently speaks Greek?
b.) which current government in India, Pakistan, or Afghanistan is a legacy of Alexander, and not British Commonwealth?
c.) aren't cities built in places due to Geograhical reasons? rivers, lakes, access through canyons... example.. if there was no spanish conquest of California, wouldn't the English or French or whoever still have picked the SF BAY area as a site for a city?

Significant Mexican culture already exists in California.
Some would point to that as a "cultural" invasion...
I do see the visible change of habits... music... food... language.

 

[Cockroach]

Pretty simple change, really. Alexander is born, but is an average or below-average leader. Let's say he's mentally handicapped.

I've seen a lot of TLs about amazing Alex; what happens to the known world in his absence?

Several options:
Okay so lets see:
1. Alexander 'below average'
Perhaps the butterflies make Philip II live longer?
Failing that I don't see Alexander coming to the throne. Quite simply there are other Argeads with strong claims so why would someone support a retard?
2. Alexander 'average'
Okay so an 'average' Alexander? Well the battle of Chaeronea is much closer (Alexander comanded one wing of the Macedonian army and purportedly was the first to break the Theban line) hence a longer campaign is requiered in Greece before either Philip or Alexander (make your pick... do you like butterflies?) can attempt the Persian expedition.
Assuming the Persian expedition actually goes ahead we probably DO NOT see Granicus play out as per OTL... a more 'average' Alexander will likely not risk an attempt to cross a river in the face of an enemy army. Then we reach a sticky point... if Alexander continues on and finds himself in an Issus like situation then this less competant Alexander will likely end up dead. Assuming he defeats Darius at an Issus equivilent then an 'average' Alexander will probably accept a peace offer.

 

[Flocculencio]

Furthermore, recently the movie portrayed his Indian hosts as being very UNWELCOMING of his presence...

Yes, well, we know how Hollywood movies are excellent primary sources for historical arguments

Why focus on the major Indian states which were on the periphery of his Empire?

 

[MrP]

a.) which Indian culture currently speaks Greek?
b.) which current government in India, Pakistan, or Afghanistan is a legacy of Alexander, and not British Commonwealth?
c.) aren't cities built in places due to Geograhical reasons? rivers, lakes, access through canyons... example.. if there was no spanish conquest of California, wouldn't the English or French or whoever still have picked the SF BAY area as a site for a city?

Significant Mexican culture already exists in California.
Some would point to that as a "cultural" invasion...
I do see the visible change of habits... music... food... language.

I think you're confusing legacy with one culture taking over another and reforming it in its image. English, for example has a lot of Greco-Latin influences. The idea of not splitting the infinitive, for example, makes bugger all sense for English, but a great deal in Latin. That's one legacy of Latin.

 

[HueyLong]

a.) which Indian culture currently speaks Greek?
b.) which current government in India, Pakistan, or Afghanistan is a legacy of Alexander, and not British Commonwealth?
c.) aren't cities built in places due to Geograhical reasons? rivers, lakes, access through canyons... example.. if there was no spanish conquest of California, wouldn't the English or French or whoever still have picked the SF BAY area as a site for a city?

Significant Mexican culture already exists in California.
Some would point to that as a "cultural" invasion...
I do see the visible change of habits... music... food... language.

Greco-Bactrian. There are still Greek loanwords in quite a few languages of the region.

Hellenized Kingdoms ruled Northern India for quite a long time. Their modern form of governance does not matter here. By that logic, no Chinese Dynasty matters as now China is ruled by the Communist Party and its government style.

Alexander founded various cities and populated them immediately with merchants, slaves and local people. Cities are not necessarily chosen for geography. For example, Washington DC and Alexandria, both major cities were planned, and possessed no real attempts at settlement prior to their use by a government. Alexandria was drianed of the nearby swamps to provid e afoundation for the first cities.

 

[HelloLegend]

Whether or not they know what they owe to him doesnt lessen in the least his cultural impact.

quote]

Then we do agree that the premise of our argument was entirely different to begin. Of course, a conqueror will have created overwhelming butterflies over the course of 3000 years. But that wasn't my point. My point is Alexander's "visible legacy" isn't there.

The Golden Buddha in Afghanistan, Iraq... which are not his butterflies not his cultural aspects (would be things from Macedonian or Greece) are in disrepair and not worshipped by the locals.

Abe Lincoln has a big legacy on us.
We see his face every day on the five dollar bill. (visible legacy)
People live freely because of his actions... (invisible legacy).

Even the stupidest stupid in America knows who Lincoln is.

How many people in Punjab have heard of Alexander the Great?