AHC: Surviving Neanderthals?!?!
- Thread starter Errnge
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I think there are conflicting theories about this; many people still believe we are descendants of out-breeding (i.e., Neanderthals and early-modern humans interbreeding until Neanderthals just didn't exist anymore), while others believe we outcompeted them. The problem is that the Neanderthals, as advanced as they were, were non-migratory and couldn't fill the same niches as early-modern Homo sapiens (if you don't count neanderthalensis as an H. sapien).
Really, one of the reasons (in my basis of belief, anyway) that we outcompeted with them was because while we were colonising all areas of the globe and moving away from the Ice Age freeze-overs, the Neanderthals were stayin put. We had colonised so much of the globe by that point that there was really no way Neanderthals could put up a survival fight against us.
Really, one of the reasons (in my basis of belief, anyway) that we outcompeted with them was because while we were colonising all areas of the globe and moving away from the Ice Age freeze-overs, the Neanderthals were stayin put. We had colonised so much of the globe by that point that there was really no way Neanderthals could put up a survival fight against us.
I think you are thinking too globally. The theory I am familiar with, and the one that is most agreed with by scientists, is this:
Neanderthals were a separate species that evolved in Europe from Homo heidelbergensis. They were closely related to Homo sapiens, and there may have been some interbreeding, but not enough to change the DNA of mankind. Neanderthal country included Europe, the Middle East, Russia, and Central Asia. We either outcompeted them, they died from climate change (the decline of forests in Europe at the time), or diseases brought over from our species killed them.
The last known hold out for the Neanderthals was the Iberian peninsula.
Neanderthals were a separate species that evolved in Europe from Homo heidelbergensis. They were closely related to Homo sapiens, and there may have been some interbreeding, but not enough to change the DNA of mankind. Neanderthal country included Europe, the Middle East, Russia, and Central Asia. We either outcompeted them, they died from climate change (the decline of forests in Europe at the time), or diseases brought over from our species killed them.
The last known hold out for the Neanderthals was the Iberian peninsula.
There are many theories stating that Homo neanderthalensis was actually a subspecies, as Homo sapien neanderthalensis, while we ourselves are Homo sapien sapiens. I'm familiar with the theory of branching from Homo heidelbergensis, and the idea that interbreeding wouldn't change our DNA drastically (it was just an idea I was positing).
Do you have a source for their 'last holdout'? I'm curious to read more on that. Indeed, climate change is defintely one of the biggest contributing factors. As I stated, the fact that neanderthalensis was non-migratory meant that climate change affected it a lot more, because it didn't adapt as well as our ancestors did (like I said, our ancestors globalised, whereas the neanderthals were stuck in the same niche that changed around them).
I think you'd nead neanderthals to become a migratory species for them to survive, or at least live somewhere where climate change wasn't bad enough to kill them off, while at the same time there were enough resources to fulfill their needs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthals#Habitat_and_range
its just a wikipedia article, but it talks about how the last fossils are mostly found in iberia and gibraltar. i'm sure it can lead you to some other sites with more information
its just a wikipedia article, but it talks about how the last fossils are mostly found in iberia and gibraltar. i'm sure it can lead you to some other sites with more information
Okay cool, thanks. But do you agree with my ideas? They're mostly the same as yours.
I truly doubt disease killed off the Neanderthal. All seriously infectious diseases, save TB, Malaria, Herpes, and some Eukaryotic pathogens (which were for the most part left in Africa), did not emerge until after the Agricultural revolution.
Crossbreeding was not likely a cause of extinction. Heard of Grolar bears? Well around 2 million years ago, polar Bears and grizzly bears diverged. If they mate, their offspring, the Grolar bear is perfectly fertile, able to breed new pizzly bears.
H. Sapiens and H. Neanderthalis were not seperated long enough to make sterile offspring.
Considering how rabbity Homo was over all, I think Humans could successfully breed with the almost alien H. Erectus, possibly Austrailopithecus
What probably killed them off was competition with Humans. We have no Kosher impulse, as demonstrated by the rape of Mauritius.
If they perhaps lived where the modern taiga is, they could farm/hunt reindeer, where very few humans live even today.
Crossbreeding was not likely a cause of extinction. Heard of Grolar bears? Well around 2 million years ago, polar Bears and grizzly bears diverged. If they mate, their offspring, the Grolar bear is perfectly fertile, able to breed new pizzly bears.
H. Sapiens and H. Neanderthalis were not seperated long enough to make sterile offspring.
Considering how rabbity Homo was over all, I think Humans could successfully breed with the almost alien H. Erectus, possibly Austrailopithecus
What probably killed them off was competition with Humans. We have no Kosher impulse, as demonstrated by the rape of Mauritius.
If they perhaps lived where the modern taiga is, they could farm/hunt reindeer, where very few humans live even today.
They need to expand their diet. They ate primarily meat, approximately 85% of their diet, from terrestrial mammals. From looking at the various compounds in their bones its known they did eat some vegetables, but more as an appetizer than a meal. And there was virtually no fish in their diet. Not only do their bones lack certain chemical traces that would indicate a fish diet, but from the Neanderthal sites there is no sign of fish bones, nets, lures, fishing spears or anything.
If the Neanderthals took to fishing, and ate a few more vegetables, its possible that they could live on in the more Northern parts of Europe and Asia. With the additional food sources a change in migration patterns wouldn't affect the Neanderthal very much. Without the additional food sources, one herd of reindeer missing could kill an entire tribe.
If the Neanderthals took to fishing, and ate a few more vegetables, its possible that they could live on in the more Northern parts of Europe and Asia. With the additional food sources a change in migration patterns wouldn't affect the Neanderthal very much. Without the additional food sources, one herd of reindeer missing could kill an entire tribe.
Dates are way off, e.g.
http://news.mongabay.com/2010/0301-hance_polarbears.html said:
Latest HUMAN research suggests that humans picked up some (small amount of) DNA (probably from Neandertals) on the way out of Africa, so all non-Africans share the same basic set of genes (mostly a subset of the wider variation of humanity in Africa + a small amount of non 'sapiens').
It might not have been Neandertal, either. There's that weird bone found in Russia recently which was neither Neandertal nor Sapiens.
NB: just because you get hybridization and geneflow, doesn't mean two populations are the same species. Anas ducks REGULARLY interbreed, but you still have distinct Pintails and Mallards and... Similarly with Larus gulls.