Is there any way for Poland to supplant Russia as the 'space-filling empire' of western Eurasia? I'm thinking by the time the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth reached its peak, it was already too late, so probably an earlier POD. Any plausible opportunities for Poland to take Russia's place in TTL?
AHC: Poland to the Urals!
- Thread starter varyar
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Possibly/probably, but then it gets pretty ugly, doesn't it? An earlier POD seems less likely to involve mass death.
Maybe? Don't you eventually get a case where the tail wags the dog there, though? I don't want a Polish minority/bare plurality, I want all the lands between the Oder (or so) and Urals majority Polish, if such a thing is possible.
Skallagrim
Banned
In 1610, when his 15-year old son Władysław is elected Tsar by Muscovy's Council of Seven Boyars (after they overthrew tsar Vasily), Sigismund of Poland maaged to ruin it all by trying to forcibly convert Muscovy's population from Orthodoxy to Catholicism. Sigismund refused to agree to the boyars' request that he send Władysław to Moscow, and for the prince to convert to Orthodoxy. Rather, Sigismund wanted to become regent in his son's name, and carry out the aforementioned conversion. This is why Poland cannot into s̶p̶a̶c̶e̶ Urals.
Let us suppose that Sigismund has more sense, the Boyars get their way, and Władysław eventually become King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania besides being Tsar of Russia... thus establishing the great and mighty triple crown of Poland, Lithuania and Russia.
It's hardly foolproof, but it's a start!
(EDIT: it was just mentioned above, I see)
Let us suppose that Sigismund has more sense, the Boyars get their way, and Władysław eventually become King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania besides being Tsar of Russia... thus establishing the great and mighty triple crown of Poland, Lithuania and Russia.
It's hardly foolproof, but it's a start!
(EDIT: it was just mentioned above, I see)
Skallagrim
Banned
Tha's simply not going to happen without a terrible amount of enthousiastic genocide.
Deleted member 97083
Possible, just not with the Commonwealth. A unitary Poland or particularly militarized Poland could settle veterans as farmers in Russia over a couple hundred years, assimilating the lower classes, while traders assimilate the middle classes and the nobility assimilates itself.
However it must be an ATL Poland that never formed the Commonwealth.
Eww Poland doesn't belong on the oder and if you have that Poland risks being every bit as German as it is polish and that's besides it's east Slavic majority.
Why wouldn't a 1610 POD work?
That's insane. All of it.
On the other I suppose you could wank Poland to take Germany's place in WW2, conquer Russia and exterminate all the "lesser slavs". Only possible way I see it happening.
Deleted member 97083
Roman style colonization doesn't seem like it would work in the decentralized and legislative PLC. It would have to be a more autocratic state.
Though I suppose once the King/Grand Duke is a Tsar, increased autocracy may result over time and it may change what the Commonwealth was.
The problem is those ethnic constraints. There's truly no realistic answer to the OP's question.
Deleted member 97083
Assimilation isn't that impossible for an empire. Rome, China, the Caliphate, the Anglo-Saxons, Seljuks, Inca Empire, all assimilated very large areas.
IOTL Polish peasants settled in Ukraine turned to Orthodox or Eastern Catholic faith quickly because Orthodox/Eastern Rite Catholic priest was cheaper in accomodation for landovners than Roman Catholic one, this is serious problem for polonization of the East.
Skallagrim
Banned
Even with a very early POD, it's not really possible to make all that territory truly Polish. By the time the Poles emerge as a distinct people, the areas to their east are in fact settled by others. It's not so easy to just conquer all that land, and even less simple to then turn it Polish.
However, even with the 1610 POD, you can get a state that's eventually run by Poland, where Polish culture is the dominant influence, where Polish is considered the prestige language, where the east is settled by Poles to a much greater degree than anything we saw in OTL, and where the non-Polish people of that area have adopted far more elements of Polish culture and language. That can be done. (Poland literally stretching to the Urals can be done, too, but in the same way that Germany stretching to the Urals could theoretically be done: by killing most or all of the previous inhabitants and resettling the whole area.)
Forgetting about genocide and such horrible stuff for the moment: if you want an earlier POD that makes Polish influence easier to spread, I'd suggest maybe trying to avoid the Great Schism. Is Poles and Russians share full communion within an undivided Church, one big obstacle to their unification and integration has just been removed.
An even earlier POD one could use is having Rastislav of Great Moravia somehow stay in power from 862 onward, since that may allow for Cyrillic to be adopted by the Poles, which would remove yet another big obstacle to their unification and integration.
You'd need a Polish ruler with terrific luck, the supplanting vision of William the Conqueror, and the state building ambition of Charlemagne.
Are you saying that Russia can't be conquered because its morale is too high? Not that I disagree with most of that, but any country can be subdued with enough power.
On one hand mediaeval Slavic nations were similar enough that assimilation would probably follow conquest rather quickly; on the other hand, Poland has the Elbe Slavs and Germans to deal with before it can start thinking about expanding east.
OTL the closest event to that was Boleslav the Brave supporting Sviatopolk to capture Kiev, and he couldn't even hold that (despite medieval Poland being at absolute peak then).
Not sure when a better opportunity could present itself, really.
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