Otto Kretschmer
Banned
Can China have an official language based on some other dialect than Mandarin?
AHC: China dominated by something else than Mandarin
- Thread starter Otto Kretschmer
- Start date
Define "Mandarin," because Mandarin is just a nickname for the standardized language, which is based on the Beijing Dialect of Northern Chinese. Mandarin could certainly be based on other dialects, depending on where the capital is of the Empire when China standardizes their languages, though I think Beijing's dialect had a few other things going for it as well.
Otto Kretschmer
Banned
Mandarin is a group of dialects that share common features. One variety of Mandarin is Beijing dialect.
The two other major groups of dialects are Central (Xiang, Gan, Wu) and southern (Yue, Hakka, Min)
The two other major groups of dialects are Central (Xiang, Gan, Wu) and southern (Yue, Hakka, Min)
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Deleted member 143777
Sure. But it would have to be rooted in roughly the same area that Mandarin is now. The Central Plains are simply much more conducive to the spread of languages than the South, which is why the latter is more linguistically fragmented. So Alt!Mandarin might be different in a purely linguistic sense, but the social and political differences would be negligible.
A relatively wild idea, but how about "Hakka" (albeit not necessarily the same as its OTL counterpart)?
Otto Kretschmer
Banned
BTW was there some kind of external factor that made Mandarin dialects evolve the way they did? In most aspects they are more innovative than at least the southern dialects which retained final stops (-p, -t, -k) and did not change fricatives from alveolar to palatal like Mandarin did
Deleted member 143777
That's...not how it worked. A form of Mandarin (literally "official-speak") similar to what we have now (and distinct from the Southern fangyan) had already emerged in the Ming Dynasty.
but mandarin was the Manchu's attempt to speak a northern dialet of Chinese, so if China wasn't conquered by the Manchu, mandarin wouldn't exist. There'll be northern and Southern dialects, but Mandarin is a very specific dialect and the Qing not conquering China would prevent it from existing
Otto Kretschmer
Banned
Was it? Are the changes in Mandarin relative to other Sinic languges a cosnequence of some external influence or internal developments?
kholieken
Banned
No way. a despised minority dialect spoken by very small minority yhat often considered non-Han.
It had same chance as Gypsies language become official German language.
well, it is not. There is no evidence that Manchu has a phonological and grammatical influence on northern Chinese dialects. Even loan words are rare. Manchu may be largely bilingual before conquering China.
What about as a result of a successful and long-lasting (and truly bizarre) Taiping Rebellion?
Otto Kretschmer
Banned
It can be anything. It just has to be spoken in an area with political economicor cultural power
Bedt contenders are Cantonese or Shanghaiese
Bedt contenders are Cantonese or Shanghaiese
kholieken
Banned
No. No. No.
Please read what @the_Milquetoast said. Like it or not, 1/3 of Chinese live on North China Plain. In the past, it even much larger proportions.
It had always centre of Chinese civilisation in the past. Any Chinese Empire must accept that fact, even when they started elsewhere.
Any possible second centre of power is in Lower Yangtze (Nanjing/Shanghai). But even them had smaller population and weaker historical claim.
Southern Chinese language is very unlikely to succeed in dominating China.
The Nine Nations of China
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