AHC: A Less Balkanized Europe
- Thread starter Rex Romanum
- Start date
Something like that. Germany is going to THE powerhouse in this Europe, much like Louis XIV France OTL, especially if they won the previous Northern War. Venice may be sucked into the war (on the Habsurg side) and then and partioned between "Italy" and Hungary. To appease France, maybe some border areas are ceded too (Lorraine? Franche Comté? Roussillon?).
The Rhine and Moss basin are going to be a bloody frontier in century-long repated clashes between the most powerful powers in Europe, with Britain bein the factor tilting the balance. French fortunes are going to improve when they manage to create a network of allies (Italy, Hungary, Scandinavia, Poland). Germany, Britain and Iberia are going to be the other alignment, likely to be in very good terms with Russia. Russia however would support independent Hungary and Poland (without Lithuania and Ukraine) as buffers against a too powerful Germany. France will have hard times in trying to keep both Hungary and the OE as allies.
Perfect recipe for stable-even balanced alignments most times, until tech progresses enough to make an WWI-style onslaught possible. Then, recipe for disaster. (evil laugh).
I guess that three centuries of increasingly bloodier wars with nearly stalemate outcomes are the almost normal state of such a Europe.
By the way, colonization will be vastly different without the Dutch around to challenge Iberian dominance and Britain generally pro-Habsburg (more than OTL at least). Germany may establish colonies in North America (maybe even with Iberian consent). South Asia will remain an Iberian playground for much time. Britain might turn anti-Habsburg over colonial issues but probably the Iberians will have a longer lasting ocean thalassocracy well into 17 and maybe even 18 centuries. France may look more outside to annoy the Iberians around. French Cape?
Le Cap is a very nice Idea; French control over it will make the Iberian sphere in the East Indies more interesting, to say the least. Perhaps a Greater Iberian East Indies that consists of the OTL Philippines and the OTL Indonesia?
I think Napoleonic Europe is viable, but I think it would be unstable in the long-term.
I agree, Poland-Lithuania, before the decline and divisions, used to be the largest central European state.
My try:
1. Jagiellonian Union (Poland, Lithuania, Czechia, Hungary; Prussia absorbed into Poland; Kourland, Livonia as vassals of Lithuania, Moldovia as vassal of Poland, Vallachia as vassal of Hungary)
2. Muscovy (Novgorod, Tver, Rzhev, Ryazan, Pskov absorbed; Kazan Khanate, Nogai Khanate vassalized)
3. Ottoman Empire (Serbia, Bosnia, Greece, Bulgaria absorbed, Crimean Khanate vassalized)
4. Sweden (with Finland and Estonia)
5. Denmark (with Norway, Iceland, Grenland)
6. HRE (including Switzerland and Low Countries; Venice, Parma, Modena as vassals)
7. Papal State
8. France (Brittany, Upper Burgundy, Milan, Tuscany, Genoa as vassals)
9. United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Ireland)
10. Hispania (Aragon, Castille, Portugal, Navarre, Sicily, Naples)
I wasn't thinking about specific POD. Maybe an extiction of house of Habsburg somewhere in the second half of XV century. So the other dynasties come to rule in Iberia and in Germany. France would have more influence in northern Italy. And Jagiellonian dynasty would be uncontested in central-eastern Europe. I didn't bother with microstates like Andorra or San Marino.
1. Jagiellonian Union (Poland, Lithuania, Czechia, Hungary; Prussia absorbed into Poland; Kourland, Livonia as vassals of Lithuania, Moldovia as vassal of Poland, Vallachia as vassal of Hungary)
2. Muscovy (Novgorod, Tver, Rzhev, Ryazan, Pskov absorbed; Kazan Khanate, Nogai Khanate vassalized)
3. Ottoman Empire (Serbia, Bosnia, Greece, Bulgaria absorbed, Crimean Khanate vassalized)
4. Sweden (with Finland and Estonia)
5. Denmark (with Norway, Iceland, Grenland)
6. HRE (including Switzerland and Low Countries; Venice, Parma, Modena as vassals)
7. Papal State
8. France (Brittany, Upper Burgundy, Milan, Tuscany, Genoa as vassals)
9. United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Ireland)
10. Hispania (Aragon, Castille, Portugal, Navarre, Sicily, Naples)
I wasn't thinking about specific POD. Maybe an extiction of house of Habsburg somewhere in the second half of XV century. So the other dynasties come to rule in Iberia and in Germany. France would have more influence in northern Italy. And Jagiellonian dynasty would be uncontested in central-eastern Europe. I didn't bother with microstates like Andorra or San Marino.
Just some ideas:
1. Poland-Lithuania (+ Russia)
2. the Ottoman Empire
3. Germany
4. France
5. Spain (+ Portugal)
6. Britain
7. Sweden
8. Denmark
9. Italy
10. Switzerland
1. Poland-Lithuania (+ Russia)
2. the Ottoman Empire
3. Germany
4. France
5. Spain (+ Portugal)
6. Britain
7. Sweden
8. Denmark
9. Italy
10. Switzerland
Best-case scenario for 1848 in Germany would consolidate all the German states (including Austria), Bohemia and Moravia, and maybe even Slovenia. Hungary would inherit the rest of the Hapsburg lands.
If the Ottoman Empire manages to hold onto its Balkan domains--beating Russia in an alt-1877 (which was very possible in OTL) will do--that's even more consolidated territory.
If the Ottoman Empire manages to hold onto its Balkan domains--beating Russia in an alt-1877 (which was very possible in OTL) will do--that's even more consolidated territory.
Best-case Germany in 1848 would adhere roughly to the German Confederation borders, true.
Here's a map containing, roughly, the bounds of Unbalkanized Europe, combined with the sister thread, unbalkanized Africa.
Perkeo
Banned
Only 10 nations in Europe:
Austria
British Empire
France
Ottoman(Byzantine?) Empire
Poland-Saxony
Portugal
Russia
Scandinavia
Spain
Switzerland
1809-1815 alternate napoleonic wars: France annexes Belgium and the Netherlands, Poland becomes independent, Germany gets divided between France, Poland(Which now calls itself Poland-Saxony) and Denmark. Bohemia and Slovakia become Polish.
1850-1870 Italy looses the war of independence and gets devided between France and Austria. San Marino gets annexed, Rome becomes an Austrian protectorate.
The Balcan gets devided between Austria and the Ottoman Empire (Or perhaps the restored Byzantine Empire after a war of independence).
around 1900: The Scandinavic states unite, Finnland joins as well or gets conquered by the Russian empire, the Baltic states never gain independence.
Andorra, Lichtenstein and Monaco are butterflied into joining their neighbours, propably due to economic reasons.
What do you think?
Austria
British Empire
France
Ottoman(Byzantine?) Empire
Poland-Saxony
Portugal
Russia
Scandinavia
Spain
Switzerland
1809-1815 alternate napoleonic wars: France annexes Belgium and the Netherlands, Poland becomes independent, Germany gets divided between France, Poland(Which now calls itself Poland-Saxony) and Denmark. Bohemia and Slovakia become Polish.
1850-1870 Italy looses the war of independence and gets devided between France and Austria. San Marino gets annexed, Rome becomes an Austrian protectorate.
The Balcan gets devided between Austria and the Ottoman Empire (Or perhaps the restored Byzantine Empire after a war of independence).
around 1900: The Scandinavic states unite, Finnland joins as well or gets conquered by the Russian empire, the Baltic states never gain independence.
Andorra, Lichtenstein and Monaco are butterflied into joining their neighbours, propably due to economic reasons.
What do you think?
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Don't forget that in an alt-Napoleonic Wars scenario Britain won't give up Hanover.
Yeah. That presumably counts as a separate state in something where the HRE doesn't even theoretically cover "Germany's states".
Which pretty much means that a post-Westphalia POD will make it extraordinarily difficult to fulfill the challenge.
Yeah. You could, if you tried really hard, argue that the HRE was a confederation of the German states (among other things), as opposed to just a theoretical concept leftover from the past - but not much more than that.
I was looking more at how it doesn't even exist at all if Napoleon has, as OTL, disbanded it, but your point is taken.
Honestly debalkanizing Europe runs into the fact it is a lot easier for (for instance) Sweden to be independent of any attempts at the United Kingdom of Scandinavia and Finland than to make such a kingdom. Its not a "could have gone either way" 50-50 by a long shot.
Earlier development of nationalism could help debalkanizing Europe in general, that is providing for something like Pan-Ottomanism.
Earlier development of nationalism could help debalkanizing Europe in general, that is providing for something like Pan-Ottomanism.
How so? asked the poster with insufficient characters.
Slavic Empire(From Poland to W.Russia)
France(With G.Britain, Ireland and Northern Italy)
Germany
Iberia
Habsburg-Empire(Austria, OTL Hungary, Central-Southern Italy, Sardinia and Sicily)
Byzantine Empire(With Greater Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania,Yugoslavia and Crimea)
France(With G.Britain, Ireland and Northern Italy)
Germany
Iberia
Habsburg-Empire(Austria, OTL Hungary, Central-Southern Italy, Sardinia and Sicily)
Byzantine Empire(With Greater Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania,Yugoslavia and Crimea)
Germany separate from the German speaking Austrian lands? Implausible, unless you mean to imply Bavaria unites Germany.