AHC: a German nationalist movement that’s inclusive of Jews?

The real root to the op would be.. How ro make people and I'm not sure why in history this happened myself.. But make them blend in more. Less bunched together.. Less Yiddish. Don't let other think of them as different.
"Make Jews less Jewish and they'll be accepted" was tried with the Haskalah. It didn't work OTL.
 
I'm Lutheran, my family German and Russian and couldn't care anyone's religion.

I agree that there are extremists but I wouldn't say Germany was anti semitic per se before the nazis. More just ambivalent.

WW1 and the aftermath which led to rise of whack jobs.. Kot saying whack jobs or things never happens before in Germany or any other nation against any group on another, but for the most part Germany was a very friendly place for the most part.. Again milage may vary and no explicite warrenty implied.

Jews had up and downs no matter where they were unfortunatly.

I could see a Germany being more receptive, but in the same breath I can see a status quo and or worse due to religious zealots.

All in all though Germany was a safe bet for Jews as was Poland.

Russia wasn't even bad for the most part. Oh yes program's.. Agreed very bad... But pre 1914? Jews were everywhere in ever walk of life in these nations.

The real root to the op would be.. How ro make people and I'm not sure why in history this happened myself.. But make them blend in more. Less bunched together.. Less Yiddish. Don't let other think of them as different.
So kill Judaism. I remember there was a debate amongst us Chassids about whether or not to pray for Napoleon’s victory. He was philosemetic. The perspective of some was the easing of discrimination would lead to assimilation.
 
Have there been any examples of more-or-less successful integration of Jews into the state nationality outside of the US? In the US, Jews basically entered the white nationality when American culture decided them and Irish and Italians and all the other European immigrants they happily kicked around counted as white people when compared to black Americans. Perhaps avoid a World War I, and all the social upheaval associated with it, and allow Germany to develop at a steady rate. As Germany begins to be a destination for slavic, turkish, arab, and african immigrants, German nationalists decide to bring Jews under the umbrella?

Carlton_Bach is writing an excellent timeline where Germany goes to war against Russia in the early twentieth century. The experience of fighting alongside Yiddish speaking Jewish-Polish freedom fighters raises the average German's esteem for the religion. A situation like that could result in the average German Nationalist Liberal viewing Jews as Germans with a different religion, not an outside ethnic group looking in.
Isn't that what is somewhat happening OTL in France and the Netherlands in response to Muslim immigration to Europe?
 
So kill Judaism. I remember there was a debate amongst us Chassids about whether or not to pray for Napoleon’s victory. He was philosemetic. The perspective of some was the easing of discrimination would lead to assimilation.
I have no issue with Jews what so ever... Some Israeli policies yes.. But hey I have issue with American and Russian policies too so hey..

But Jews no, I don't ask to be judged so why should I.

So no. And many many Germans through history have thought this way. Yiu take the policy or the select few and extrapolate. Most German Jews were very German as were the Russian Jews and Polish Jews.

I agree that there were discriminatory programs in many European nations.

But as for the ops question, German nationalism prior or after nazisim which is a huperbol unto itself.. I Would say was inclusive as much as anywhere else. Heck prior to 1870 getting Germans from one state to like the next was a challange
 
"Make Jews less Jewish and they'll be accepted" was tried with the Haskalah. It didn't work OTL.
I mean like the French didn't just move to Quebec and take over
. Wait they did..

Germans didn't come to America and take over Michigan, Ohio and pensalvanyia and Wisconsin.. And wait they did..


Yes I know groups flock together.

Issues tend to happen even today with groups that stick out.. That tend to scare the majority. Human culture sucks. If or one could care less if someone is hindi, Muslim, jew or christian.. Actually all but the last group go door to door.. So the rest get props.

I guess the only people I don't living next to me are nazis, actually any die hard racists, pedophiles,, religious zealots of any group and mass murders. Outside of that I'm pretty much okay with humanity. Live and let live..

But national socialism is based on hatred.

German imperialism while screwed up.. Like most imperialism of the day or now wasnt out to get the Hebrew or others.. Except maybe the whole Prussia on Poland... Wait Prussia can't be Poland okay we will be Germany even though we're not.. We're just Baltic folk... Until they absorbed alot of German land eternal fight.

In the holy roman empire and Auatria discrimination came and went, same in all of European nations.

In my opinion Germany could have been more inclusive irregardless, but hey the Lutheran north weren't exactly all happy buddy buddy with the catholic south
I will state that racism is stupid and disgusting
 
Maybe you could have a Jewish person save Martin Luther’s life or something?
Alternatively, you could have a history of German-Russian conflict greater than in OTL. During this conflict, Germany exploits tensions between Russians and Russian Jews to try to get the Russian Jews to side with them during the conflict. This would get Germans used to viewing Jewish people as allies.
 
So we're ignoring the attacks on jewish communities in Germany during the first crusade and during the black death?
Are we also supposed to ignore the repeated strains of anti-semitism that broke out from Martin Luther onwards?
I mean in comparison to Russia, Spain, and England it still was the safest place in Europe up to the 1920s... not safe
 
I mean like the French didn't just move to Quebec and take over
. Wait they did..

Germans didn't come to America and take over Michigan, Ohio and pensalvanyia and Wisconsin.. And wait they did..


Yes I know groups flock together.

Issues tend to happen even today with groups that stick out.. That tend to scare the majority. Human culture sucks. If or one could care less if someone is hindi, Muslim, jew or christian.. Actually all but the last group go door to door.. So the rest get props.

I guess the only people I don't living next to me are nazis, actually any die hard racists, pedophiles,, religious zealots of any group and mass murders. Outside of that I'm pretty much okay with humanity. Live and let live..

But national socialism is based on hatred.

German imperialism while screwed up.. Like most imperialism of the day or now wasnt out to get the Hebrew or others.. Except maybe the whole Prussia on Poland... Wait Prussia can't be Poland okay we will be Germany even though we're not.. We're just Baltic folk... Until they absorbed alot of German land eternal fight.

In the holy roman empire and Auatria discrimination came and went, same in all of European nations.

In my opinion Germany could have been more inclusive irregardless, but hey the Lutheran north weren't exactly all happy buddy buddy with the catholic south
I will state that racism is stupid and disgusting
About Prussia, the Teuton Order massacred large numbers of the native Baltic tribes when they invaded. When the Kingdom of Prussia formed, it was really just a prestigious title for the Margrave/Elector of Brandenburg, around which the Kingdom was centered. This is incidentally why Berlin was the capital. Prussia was just a name, not the actual ethnic group.
EDIT:
Also, though this is just my opinion, I think much of the original anti-Polish sentiment was because of Prussia wanting to connect its land in the Partitions. Then, the Polish were against this for obvious reasons, and the monarch was against this. Not really nationalist sentiment. That came after Napoleon for the most part, and originally had even supported an independent Poland. After 1848, the conservative part took over, leading to much of the discrimination. I agree with you about the rest, except the Germanization of the Midwest, which I am confused about.
 
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There were a lot of jewish german nationalists before the rise of nazism however the german society of the second empire did not really accept them I think. Wilhelm II even advocated genocide when he was in exile. One really tragic aspect of the terror of the national socialist regime is that their nationalism didn't save german jews so they were killed and their identity erased. Jewish Germans earned the same amount or more iron crosses during the first world war IIRC. So the problem obviously lies in the majority german christian population.

My best guess would be that a very important person of the nationalist movement or myth needs to be jewish. A Bismarck analogue who is jewish might change something but I don't know if a religious jewish person could assume the office of minister president or if the king would always choose a protestant. A jewish *Bismarck* would also change the Kulturkampf as he would either not dare to attack the church or secularise even more. I also fear that anti-semitism would rise on the side of his enemies - the left liberals and socialists.
The best chance for a jewish german nationalist hero is probably during the 1848 revolution as it wasn't yet coopted by reactionary prussians.
 
His name escapes me, but there was a French thinker who influenced some of the Nazis' ideas, but had viewed the Jews as a high race in his racial hierarchy. Perhaps a German nationalism inclusive of Jews emerges from these ideas instead of Nazism? Perhaps separate from, or as a part of this, a "German Israelism" develops, wherein supporters of the theory see the Germans as the "lost" Israelites and take that as a basis to see as their brothers Yiddish-speaking Jews in Central and Eastern Europe?

I'm not endorsing any of these ideas, but they very well might have been a current of thought to have arisen in the age of nationalism.
 
Have there been any examples of more-or-less successful integration of Jews into the state nationality outside of the US? In the US, Jews basically entered the white nationality when American culture decided them and Irish and Italians and all the other European immigrants they happily kicked around counted as white people when compared to black Americans. Perhaps avoid a World War I, and all the social upheaval associated with it, and allow Germany to develop at a steady rate. As Germany begins to be a destination for slavic, turkish, arab, and african immigrants, German nationalists decide to bring Jews under the umbrella?

Carlton_Bach is writing an excellent timeline where Germany goes to war against Russia in the early twentieth century. The experience of fighting alongside Yiddish speaking Jewish-Polish freedom fighters raises the average German's esteem for the religion. A situation like that could result in the average German Nationalist Liberal viewing Jews as Germans with a different religion, not an outside ethnic group looking in.
Mind naming what TL this is? It sounds rather interesting
 
Es Geloybte Aretz
Mind naming what TL this is? It sounds rather interesting
 

Pinny_Chet

Banned
Impossible. Hating Jews is a part of Luthers teaching. Germany was 60% Lutheran in the 19th century. How is that ever going to work out?

Germany needs to become secular as France where the church is not influencing the entire society.
 
Religious people do not follow the original scriptures entirely. Religions often changed with the times. Otherwise, the Churches would not have evolved to Modern Era.
Imperial Germany, unlike Tsarist Russia and I think 3rd Republic France, did not have high profile intolerance of Jews.
Impossible. Hating Jews is a part of Luthers teaching. Germany was 60% Lutheran in the 19th century. How is that ever going to work out?

Germany needs to become secular as France where the church is not influencing the entire society.
 

Pinny_Chet

Banned
Religious people do not follow the original scriptures entirely. Religions often changed with the times. Otherwise, the Churches would not have evolved to Modern Era.
Imperial Germany, unlike Tsarist Russia and I think 3rd Republic France, did not have high profile intolerance of Jews.
The state but not the people. This is seen as why the Nazis got most of their votes from Lutheran majority districts.

If Germany was majority Catholic or turned Calvinist, the Jews could have been a part. The Lutherans won't tolerate it.
 
Es Geloybte Aretz
Thank you!

Also its a great timeline, check it out if you haven't yet.
 
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