A free Ireland

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Deleted member 5909

Would it be possible for the English to be totally defeated in Ireland, during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I, and for us to get an independent Irish kingdom there? How can we get the Tudors to fail miserably? I'm assuming Spanish intervention would be key?

I'm considering developing a TL and need help and suggestions...
 

Ofaloaf

Spanish (or French, come to think of it) intervention and support would be vital for an independent Ireland to be established during the Elizabethan era- I'm not certain that Hugh O'Neill or any other Irish lord could successfully rally all of Ireland to rebellion without some sort of divine intervention, what with clan politics at the time be painfully complicated. And, even if O'Neill did manage to rally everyone to the cause, Bess' advisers would probably either push for just invading Ireland again and again until rebel leaders give in or offering concessions and then breaking promises once peace is made.

Really, the Irish would've had a much better chance if they weren't divided between so many squabbling clans. And didn't have English lords breathing down their necks already. And had fair political influence outside of the isles.
 

lothaw

Even the Scots couldn't manage total independence from the British, and they faced the same social divisions the Irish did for the most part.

Best case scenario is the Irish are eventually admitted into the UK on more equal grounds.
 

I Blame Communism

Banned
lothaw said:
Even the Scots couldn't manage total independence from the British, and they faced the same social divisions the Irish did for the most part.

Best case scenario is the Irish are eventually admitted into the UK on more equal grounds.
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Okay, the what now?

Yes, we Scots can't manage total independence from the British. It would be like New-Yorkers managing total independence from the Americans. We are the British!

What were these "social divisions"? Clan structures? I hope this isn't another case of Scotland=Highlands.

Ireland was admitted to the UK as an equal part! They just didn't like it taht way because there are an awful lot more Brits than Irish.
 
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rcduggan

Endymion said:
Would it be possible for the English to be totally defeated in Ireland, during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I, and for us to get an independent Irish kingdom there? How can we get the Tudors to fail miserably? I'm assuming Spanish intervention would be key?

I'm considering developing a TL and need help and suggestions...
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You would have to go much earlier than that for a plausible POD. The English had claim to Ireland since at least the 1200s (I can't remember exactly when). If Elizabeth failed, subsequent rulers would try to conquer Ireland too. By this point I can't see England not conquering Ireland barring some kind of Ruled Britannia situation or if the English Civil War goes horribly wrong.
 

fhaessig

rcduggan said:
You would have to go much earlier than that for a plausible POD. The English had claim to Ireland since at least the 1200s (I can't remember exactly when). If Elizabeth failed, subsequent rulers would try to conquer Ireland too. By this point I can't see England not conquering Ireland barring some kind of Ruled Britannia situation or if the English Civil War goes horribly wrong.
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It's a bit later than envisionned, but what about a 1798 PoD, with french revolutionary armies led by Hoche?
 
MrP

MrP

Banned
fhaessig said:
It's a bit later than envisionned, but what about a 1798 PoD, with french revolutionary armies led by Hoche?
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Bit of a mess, weren't they? ISTR that it was envisaged by France as more a distraction than anything else, and hence it didn't get the sort of support needed for the sort of success we're after here.

EDIT: But then again, I might be thinking of the Welsh thing with the local women in hats.
 
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Thande

Thande

Donor
I dunno - it's 4pm on a Friday night, I've got to mark some more exam scripts, so I don't really have the time to go psycho over the idiocy and ignorance in the OP. Anyone want to ask Leej to do it instead?
 
MrP

MrP

Banned
Thande said:
I dunno - it's 4pm on a Friday night, I've got to mark some more exam scripts, so I don't really have the time to go psycho over the idiocy and ignorance in the OP. Anyone want to ask Leej to do it instead?
Click to expand...

Silence, English oppressor! Actually, where is Leej? This sort of thing usually acts like a black hole. Maybe he got that pub job.
 
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