You still have to introduce it in a way that it will spread quickly and widely, it's not easy.
5 weapons that could win germany the ww2
- Thread starter Logisticsofwar
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You still have to introduce it in a way that it will spread quickly and widely, it's not easy.
Garrison
Donor
But the bombing was sustained, it went on for months in places like London without producing the collapse you seem to imagine was just around the corner. Even the article you quote points out:I didn't say it was a national social breakdown, it was localized. Merseyside had some riots, as did East London as did Coventry. Had the bombing been sustained things would have worsened and pressure would have been on to find a solution, if not military then political.
The Coventry Blitz: 'Hysteria, terror and neurosis'
On 14 November 1940 the Luftwaffe launched its most devastating bombing raid of World War Two so far, on the city of Coventry. BBC News examines the terrible impact of the attacks.www.bbc.com
You really have nothing to offer to support the notion that Hamburg level destruction, which the Luftwaffe wasn't capable of, would have forced the British to make peace other than your belief that dictatorships were somehow more resilient than democracies, or maybe its just that the Germans really were Aryan supermen? Let's also be clear that If the Luftwaffe had tried to build up the firepower to mount raids with 400, 500 or 1000 strategic heavy bombers it would have been academic since the Heer would then probably then have lacked the strength to win in France.
But it could be done right? Quick idea flea larve in hay to protect Industrial equipment on the voyage east, NAZI spies let loose in public spaces (cinema trains) with clothes infected with fleas etc; dropping infected flea larve on children playgrounds etc . could be done, could be untraceable for the time would be somewhat similar as the spanish conquest of south america or the US against the indians
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honestly the idea of giving a early nuke has been discussed to death, perhaps have pieces of radioactive material brought to shore in canada (the Nazi's had a hidden weather station there) and burn a little bid as a dirty bomb and say you have a undisclosed amount spread over all american city a sort of de-escelation using nuclear weapons (like the russians would claim). Also refrain from informing the american public and have a carrot at the ready as wel. Claim that you will defeat communisme play down the mass murders that all you want is for germans to settle lands where germans have historically settled etc, promise good trade relations promise that ones you have what you want you might aid against the japanese, many of that jewish art could be sold for quit a bargain they don't want it, maybe some deal could be worked out in creating israel but keep it in limbo etc.
Deleted member 1487
Spread out and small compared to a heavy V-1 bombardment ongoing for years. In less than 3 months the V-1 blitz inflicted as much damage as the entire 1940-41 Blitz, but mostly concentrated in London (in 1944).
V-1 flying bomb - Wikipedia
One guy's opinion in contrast to actual evidence of a social breakdown in Coventry after the bombing.
Not only that, but there is a lot of puffery without sourcing to back up his claims, while ignoring the important details of why Nazi Germany was able to keep fighting despite any number of mistakes the RAF BC made in their campaign.
Holy Strawman Batman!
We see how Conventry impacted the people on the ground. It just largely stopped there and didn't continue. Neither Germany nor Britain could have taken sustained bombing of the Hamburg variety, but Nazi Germany had the coercive apparatus of the Gestapo, SS, and camp systems to keep Germany fighting to the bitter end:
Amazon.com: The End: The Defiance and Destruction of Hitler's Germany, 1944-1945 eBook: Kershaw, Ian: Kindle Store
The End: The Defiance and Destruction of Hitler's Germany, 1944-1945 - Kindle edition by Kershaw, Ian. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading The End: The Defiance and Destruction of...
www.amazon.com
We're talking about V-1 missile attacks around the clock, not an RAF style city bombing campaign. The V-1 attacks despite being far less sorties than the Blitz, destroyed nearly as many houses in Britain.
thaddeus
Donor
this is really a thread, as with the previous one, that requires a more definitive meaning for Win? it is possible to imagine a scenario in which the Nazi regime survives, achieving a Phoney Peace as a successor to the Phoney War, even at the most speculative reaches a negotiated deal with the USSR? but all that is dependent more on strategy than weapons.
maybe working torpedoes https://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1599&context=etd would provide them an avenue whereby they performed better during Norway and blocked some of the Dunkirk evacuation. they had less of frantic effort and did not fumble away the secrets of their magnetic mines?
when they invaded the USSR, there are some existing weapons they needed more than any wonder weapon? the little biplane HS-123, just 500 or so more of those than the HS-126 observation plane ?
start mounting the 105mm gun on obsolete Pz II? the Wespe. either one or both of those would bring a lot more firepower to bear on the Soviets in the initial stages
maybe working torpedoes https://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1599&context=etd would provide them an avenue whereby they performed better during Norway and blocked some of the Dunkirk evacuation. they had less of frantic effort and did not fumble away the secrets of their magnetic mines?
when they invaded the USSR, there are some existing weapons they needed more than any wonder weapon? the little biplane HS-123, just 500 or so more of those than the HS-126 observation plane ?
start mounting the 105mm gun on obsolete Pz II? the Wespe. either one or both of those would bring a lot more firepower to bear on the Soviets in the initial stages
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How many V1s would be needed? How many launch sites and where would they be? When is the POD? When is the bombardment due to start and when will the UK know about the project?Spread out and small compared to a heavy V-1 bombardment ongoing for years. In less than 3 months the V-1 blitz inflicted as much damage as the entire 1940-41 Blitz, but mostly concentrated in London (in 1944).
V-1 flying bomb - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
One guy's opinion in contrast to actual evidence of a social breakdown in Coventry after the bombing.
Not only that, but there is a lot of puffery without sourcing to back up his claims, while ignoring the important details of why Nazi Germany was able to keep fighting despite any number of mistakes the RAF BC made in their campaign.
Holy Strawman Batman!
We see how Conventry impacted the people on the ground. It just largely stopped there and didn't continue. Neither Germany nor Britain could have taken sustained bombing of the Hamburg variety, but Nazi Germany had the coercive apparatus of the Gestapo, SS, and camp systems to keep Germany fighting to the bitter end:
Britain did not nor was Britain willing to go to the lengths of executing tens of thousands of their own people to force them to keep fighting as Nazi Germany did.Amazon.com: The End: The Defiance and Destruction of Hitler's Germany, 1944-1945 eBook: Kershaw, Ian: Kindle Store
The End: The Defiance and Destruction of Hitler's Germany, 1944-1945 - Kindle edition by Kershaw, Ian. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading The End: The Defiance and Destruction of...www.amazon.com
We're talking about V-1 missile attacks around the clock, not an RAF style city bombing campaign. The V-1 attacks despite being far less sorties than the Blitz, destroyed nearly as many houses in Britain.
IF the POD is before the Fall of France, what is given up to permit their building? And what does this do to the various 1940s campaigns?
Please start a TL to show your train of thought. It will be quite interesting but prepare to be critiqued.
Perhaps the question should be rephrased in "Avoiding which weapons would make Germany stronger in WWII?".
Winning WWII just by choosing another weapon system is not feasible. However Germany could prolong the war a lot (and possible defeat some nations it did not in OTL) if it made the right choices.
For example: Avoiding the Me110 --> 210 --> 410 (which absorbed a lot of resources with rather little gains) or avoiding the He177. Avoiding the V1 would also free up lots of resources for other meaninfgul purposes.
Winning WWII just by choosing another weapon system is not feasible. However Germany could prolong the war a lot (and possible defeat some nations it did not in OTL) if it made the right choices.
For example: Avoiding the Me110 --> 210 --> 410 (which absorbed a lot of resources with rather little gains) or avoiding the He177. Avoiding the V1 would also free up lots of resources for other meaninfgul purposes.
I would ad trying to make the He-177 use coupled engines was a big waste of time and resources. With hindsight skip the Pz.I and go straight to the Pz.II for training and recon, make more StuGs than Pz.III's and get the Pz.IV F-2 into mass production as soon as possible, go for quantity instead of quality and not rush the Panther until the bugs have been ironed out.
All of this would of course would only be of limited improvement but its a step in the right direction IMO.
Deleted member 1487
Good questions, I don't have the answer off hand. POD would be pre-war to get it ready by 1941. Bombardment would start in 1941. The UK might well know in November 1939 thanks to the Oslo report, but have little they could do against it.
It would be a POD before WW2 started to make it feasible. Since we're saying it enters service in 1941 it wouldn't have an impact on any of the ground campaigns, because it is a strategic bombardment weapon that for mass use requires launch sites; not really helpful unless against Leningrad or Moscow after the front bogs down.
Not sure I have thought out the specific detail enough to write a TL, as it would require a lot of research to do accurately. No doubt any such TL would face criticism no matter how well researched and sourced.
BlackDragon98
Banned
the flaming nightmare known as the He 177 was terrible, however a heavily modified design known as the He 274 was exactly what the Luftwaffe needed.
en.wikipedia.org
Two prototypes were abandoned in France in 1944 and ultimately completed by the French who actually used it for many years as a testbed for launching rockets and stuff
Heinkel He 274 - Wikipedia
Garrison
Donor
Spread out and small compared to a heavy V-1 bombardment ongoing for years. In less than 3 months the V-1 blitz inflicted as much damage as the entire 1940-41 Blitz, but mostly concentrated in London (in 1944).
V-1 flying bomb - Wikipedia
Which might have rather more to do with the Luftwaffe in 1940 primarily aiming at industrial and commercial targets and not being all that effective in that effort to boot.
Its the evidence from your own source! If one part is mere puffery why should we take the rest of it seriously. Is it simply that only the bits that agree with you are true?
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And your failing is assuming that such means were the best for maintaining public morale. Your underlying belief is clearly that the authoritarian regimes were far more resilient than the democracies, without a shred of evidence to support it.
As pointed out above this might have rather more to do with the Luftwaffe in 1940 primarily aiming at industrial and commercial targets whereas the V1 and V2 campaigns were designed for pure terrorism. Let's not even get into how the Germans are supposed build this vast supply of V1's at a point in the war when it might do any good and what else is being sacrificed to build them?
Garrison
Donor
So basically at a time when the Wehrmacht's effort to prepare for war were being constantly derailed by cuts to its allocation of steel and other raw materials you are suggesting they invest in a weapon that will be of no use against the armies of Poland or France in the field and can only be used as a strategic weapon against the British after Northern France and Belgium have been conquered (again this being put in motion at a time when the plan to attack France is basically a rerun of the Schlieffen plan) and an infrastructure of launch ramps has been built to enable them to be launched to maintain this day and night bombardment at a rate that will crush British will to fight. Yeah the guy who proposes that to Hitler probably deserves to be shot...
And then the Brit's render most of Germany uninhabitable for the next few hundred years with Anthrax via Operation Vegetarian.
How? A slow, interceptable flying bomb that is lucky if it can hit a massive metropolis is going to win how?
It's funny that you say that. I think with the benefit of hindsight, many people forget just how unexpected and surprising Germany's victory over France was. I see it here a lot where its blithely assumed that the Wehrmacht will triumph over France and the BEF regardless of the prewar status.
Okay. So they destroy a lot of houses that are probably already evacuated. So what? The V-1 can only reliably hit London. Industry can be moved, people can be evacuated. While the Luftwaffe is wasting fuel and HE uselessly bombing London, the rest of the British military and industry is building up in cities and towns V-1’s can’t touch.