1939s British army sanity options

Belt fed mg means you become more like German squad whose sole rationale was to carry ammo for the mg34/42 - I stand to be corrected but think that 1 Bren per section works ?

If you really want to go down that route then was there a bipod besa ? ( I know it's different bullet so crap logistics as Bren uses same as the smle.

How about Vickers VGO for your assault group much higher ROf - was used by RM at d day as SAW
 
Very nice gun but at risk of upsetting lots of Finns its too expensive for mass production as the Finns found out - also while the 72 (70 in practice!) round Drum mag was the exception that proves the rule regarding Drum mags in that it was incredibly reliable iirc it made the Soumi KP/31 over 7 kgs in weight (which is too heavy) and its real advantage over other SMGs was that Drum mag!
Yep, expensive to make due to the machining needed.
Probably the best SMG to clone, or at least use as inspiration for a British design, was the MP-38 with it's extensive use of stamping and die-casting for metal parts and use of Balkelite in the furniture. Plus the folding stock is useful. A better layout, with the magazine further back to give a longer barrel. The UK would probably insist on a proper fire selector too.
Even better would be a design like the Sa-23 emerging a few years early with it's telescoping bolt.
 
Belt fed mg means you become more like German squad whose sole rationale was to carry ammo for the mg34/42 - I stand to be corrected but think that 1 Bren per section works ?

If you really want to go down that route then was there a bipod besa ? ( I know it's different bullet so crap logistics as Bren uses same as the smle.

How about Vickers VGO for your assault group much higher ROf - was used by RM at d day as SAW

Well to some extent the British section did the same for the Bren gun team but for logistic the Rifle and MG can be changed?

Actually makes sense to adopt the 8mm Mauser rifle round for Rifle, LMG and MMG and this opens up lots of existing designs for adoption

The Bren was derived from an existing 8mm Mauser Design of LMG in fact if adopted in 8mm Mauser it could be adopted earlier as no change to .303 would be necessary - the Vickers MMG was adaptable to this calibre (among others) and the BESA as mentioned was an existing 8mm Mauser COTS design from Czechoslovakia that was adopted for AFV use without any change.
 
I'm all for new cartrige, if it is intermediate, and hopefully an off-the-shelf, so the British army can have an assault rifle as soon as possible. Nothing prevents the Army to have .303 Browning in their tanks, thus not adopting yet another full-power cartrige.
 
Interesting that this thread is all about improving the Army's kit, but we do not mention training, tactical doctrine or leadership. With no change in the kit or units involved, would Malaya have been defendable if the troops had been differently used and led? For example, had the Royal Engineer units been used to build pill boxes and anti-tank barriers? Had Operation Matador been ordered earlier, or the British invasion of FIC undertaken before the IJA moved in?

IMO, the British Army had good enough kit, but needed better doctrine and leadership. How do we get this starting in 1930 so that it's place by 1940?
 
Anyone daft enough to jump out of a perfectly good aircraft just to get shot at needs help. It's even worse than that though. Unlike the US paras they didn't have a reserve chute.
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You have not looked closely at the airplanes we jump out of.

British paratroopers did not need reserves for two reasons.
A - their X-Type chutes were more reliable than American-pattern chutes.
B - they jumped into battle from such low altitudes that reserves were useless.
 

Guardian54

Banned
IMO, the British Army had good enough kit, but needed better doctrine and leadership. How do we get this starting in 1930 so that it's place by 1940?

March every War Office traitor who intentionally and forcefully obstructed General Percy Hobart in front of machine guns, feed them a few belts of ammunition, then interview them on how effective Great War infantry tactics were compared to Hobart's Experimental Armoured Force.

You will find deafening silence to be your answer.

There are very few things you can do without clearing the deadwood of conservative cavalrymen out in terminal fashion.
 
First off the "cavalry mafia" was dominated by upper crust, wealthy noblemen. They had the ear of the (Royal) court and liked to "lord it over" the peasants who filled infantry ranks.
Traditional cavalry have always played a variety of rolls on the battlefield. Light cavalry screened and scouted, while heavy cavalry charged directly into enemy formations.
Cavalry philosophy remained unchanged despite new vehicles.

Finns learned a lot during the Winter War and WALLIES could have learned valuable lessons about the value of SMGs, LMGs, anti-tank rifles, anti-tank grenades, snipers etc.
The Soumi SMG was the best of its era, but too heavy and too expensive to manufacture.
Sten was the cheapest possible SMG, albeit too crude to be reliable. STEN's biggest flaw was copying single-row feed magazines from the German MP38/40. Poor quality control caused lots of STEN magazines to jam
 
Continuing on the subject of submachineguns .... support troops (tankers, engineers, truck drivers, etc.) would have been better armed with MCEM-2 machine pistols. MCEM-2 was compact with its magazine inside the pistol grip, a telescoping bolt and a holster that quickly converted to a shoulder stock. MCEM-2 was trialed immediately post-WW2 as the Brits looked for a more reliable SMG to replace STEN. Patchet/Sterling won that competition and remained in service until the bullpup assault rifle was issued.
Both STEN and Sterling had bayonet lugs, which came in handy when fighting in someone's house.

As for choice of SMG caliber ..... STEN was designed to fire 9 X 19mm Parabellum/Luger pistol cartridges because millions were laying around occupied Europe. SOE also hoped that resistance fighters could steal MP40 magazines.
9mm Luger ammo was also the largest pistol cartridge in widespread service in Europe.
Canadian munitions factories did produce a supercharged 9 X 19mm round specifically for STENs but they cautioned troops against firing STEN ammo from older pistols out of fear of breaking pistols.

While we are on the subject of ammo, British LMGs would have been armed with 7.92mm Mauser rifle cartridges because they are rim-less and far easier to feed through automatic weapons.

As for the Battle Jerkin (aka. vest) small numbers were issued for the Notmandy landings. The chief complaint was that BJ was "hot on the March." A later skeletonised BJ reduced that complaint, but was too late for WW2.
During the 1990s, the Canadian Army briefly issued an up-dated BJ that troops derisively nicknamed "Bosnian Fishing Vest." Since BFV was introduced about the same time as ballistic vests, it was superceded by various forms of chest webbing that fits over top of BV.

Chest webbing was introduced during the 1960s by two different armies: British and North Vietnamese. Brits introduced chest webbing during the Irish "Troubles" when they crammed infantrymen into Saracen APCs.

Earlier introduction of chest webbing and bull pups would need a POD early in WW2 with earlier adoption of APCs.
 
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Belt fed mg means you become more like German squad whose sole rationale was to carry ammo for the mg34/42 - I stand to be corrected but think that 1 Bren per section works ?

If you really want to go down that route then was there a bipod besa ? ( I know it's different bullet so crap logistics as Bren uses same as the smle.

How about Vickers VGO for your assault group much higher ROf - was used by RM at d day as SAW

In another thread I discussed the evolution of the Squad (Section) and how it runs either rifle centric or machinegun centric. The Germans concluded from WWI that the firepower of their squad was to be built upon the machinegun and it needed a high ROF to achieve any hits at what was assumed to be only fleeting targets. The rifleman became supporting fire in this mindset, longer ranged, accurate, and more often than not simply to protect the MG crew (and bear ammo).

The USA moved rifle centric with the Garand showing the reliance upon massed rifle fires to prevail. I think the Germans were ahead of the curve for the ear and ideally one adds the semi- (or full) automatic rifle to bring us to the modern era. My opinion would be that Britain was rifle centric, the BREN is more a supporting arm than the real firepower of a MG, you move up to find the base of fire of MG in British units like American infantry. This is entirely doctrine driven, you need to find a different mindset to pursue a MG at Section level for the British Army, it came with wartime experience and opposing German infantry structured this way. I think the VGO would have been a great stepping stone in that evolution but again you need someone changing how British infantry fight to compel a change in procurement. This impacts the SMG also.

The Germans introduced the MP40 as the logical extension of its trench sweeping lessons from WWI and it added close in high volume fire for clearing houses, taking a hedgerow or just adding din and furor to the engagement. British Army did not book the same lessons and seems uninterested in adding a SMG at Section level until war came and it hurriedly bought Thompsons and developed the Sten. Again one needs to find the doctrine change to set in motion adoption of a similar mix of weaponry as one sees in German infantry and latter in US as well as British where at least one SMG is carried to compliment the riflemen in assaults.

From WWI it seems obvious that machineguns, grenades and mortars are the killers with SMGs very useful, rifles being specialist weapons. We see something along these lines in proposals to ream the US Army Squad after years of urban warfare in Iraq. The British Army after WWI returned to a policing the Empire paradigm that also shades doctrine and weaponry. The disability is that arming to fight the last war sometimes comes up short. We see the arguments regarding British armour doctrine, so one needs to reason how far the lessons open horizons. I am partial to the German model in this era, it has a lot to commend it. The British Army had no shortage of experience or thinkers, perhaps as it pursued more mobility and doing more with less lads it might have pursued a GPMG sooner and more deliberately.
 

Glyndwr01

Banned
I can totally see this being used for target practice by panzers toward the rear of the formation... to the point of perhaps Saving Private Ryan style pistolero contests.

EDIT: Presuming it's slowed enough.
I was talking about it being used in a cluster bomb by an intruder bomber.
 
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