Yeah, the Reading was already freight-heavy (aside from some commuter operations in Philadelphia and NJ), while the Pennsy line was more passenger-oriented.
Amtrak: The Road to Recovery
- Thread starter Devvy
- Start date
Yeah, the Reading was already freight-heavy (aside from some commuter operations in Philadelphia and NJ), while the Pennsy line was more passenger-oriented.
Duly noted, and incoming retcon (editing the older posts when I have time later) to take the PRR Philly - Harrisburg line instead.
Thanks for the info
No problem. Always happy to help.
Two URL's that have information on fan-made/proposed Amtrak routes:
Most of those are interesting suggestions. I especially like the ones from the first link that I listed.
Most of those are interesting suggestions. I especially like the ones from the first link that I listed.
I've seen that one before and its not bad, and the planning in it is impressive, but it leaves out a number of holes and the engineering challenges on several of the routes, particularly their Philadelphia-Cleveland line, would be enormous. That also leaves aside that plan, particularly in the Northeast, serves numerous communities which haven't got anything like the demand needed to justify rapid intercity rail service.
This has some good ideas, but some routes that make no sense, and a lot of them leave out logical stops. For example, this link's Gulf Breeze route goes Boston-NYC-Philadelphia-Washington-Atlanta-Birmingham-Montgomery-Mobile-New Orleans. That's not a bad route, but why skip over Columbia, Charlotte, Raleigh and Richmond?
For example:
Sunset Limited: Los Angeles-Tucson-El Paso-San Antonio-Houston-New Orelans-Jacksonville-Orlando-Tampa
This skips Phoenix, Mobile and Tallahassee, and why finish in Tampa rather than Miami?
Golden State: Los Angeles-Phoenix-Tucson-El Paso-Abilene-Fort Worth-Dallas-St. Louis-Chicago-Detroit-Toronto
This shouldn't skip San Antonio, and it would make sense to Dallas-Texarkana-Little Rock-Memphis-Paducah-St. Louis along the way. Going to Toronto is probably meant to attract snowbirds going south for the winter as a lot of Canadians do, but honestly this one might make sense to split in Detroit and have one route go to Toronto and Montreal, while the other one goes via Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia to New York.
Continental: Los Angeles-Phoenix-Tucson-El Paso-Abilene-Fort Worth-Dallas-Atlanta-Washington, DC
Again, why skip places? This is another route where going through San Antonio and Austin is obvious, and what route is between Dallas and Atlanta and then between Atlanta and Washington? The Washington-Atlanta route is fairly obvious (Washington-Richmond-Raleigh-Columbia-Atlanta), but you have a couple potentials between Dallas and Atlanta.
Overland Limited: Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Provo, Salt Lake City, Ogden, Laramie, Denver, Omaha, Chicago, Cleveland, Boston
Here's the holes problem again, and Odgen-Laramie-Denver is a big detour for a small additional population. Better to go via the old Rio Grande route through the Moffat Tunnel to Denver and shave a couple hundred miles off the route.
Pioneer Zephyr: Vancouver-Seattle-Portland-Ogden-Salt Lake City-Provo-Denver-Newton-Oklahoma City-Fort Worth-Dallas-Houston-New Orleans
Whose idea was this? Ballsy, but a little dumb. Kansas City would work better than Newton, and if you are gonna go to this trouble you might as well go on to Jacksonville or Miami after New Orleans.
Oriental: Vancouver-Edmonton-Winnipeg-Minneapolis-Chicago-Detroit-Toronto
Where does one start with this? Aside from VIA going bananas over losing out a sizeable portion of their business, you're just taking traffic from yourself, not to mention Vancouver-Edmonton-Winnipeg-Minneapolis is one hell of a long detour. Somebody going from Vancouver to Chicago already has a bunch of options here, they aren't gonna take this one as its over a thousand miles longer than an Empire Builder train.
Devvy
Donor
While I appreciate that the *long* distance train is a staple part of American rail history, those kind of services are only going to be viable under certain circumstances - where sufficient high-paying passengers can be attracted. These passengers will either be a) high-earning tourists who use the train trip as the primary attraction for the scenery & service on the trip, and b) people who dislike flying enough that they will pay extra for the service and experience on the way and not bother about the extra time spent.
And as TheMann points out, don't expect to see Amtrak barging into the Canadian market here
And as TheMann points out, don't expect to see Amtrak barging into the Canadian market here
Devvy
Donor
Spotlight on: Mass Transit in Boston, 1980
Looking back: an old MBTA subway map
Times had changed rapidly in Boston and the wider New England area. Many freight railroads had gone bankrupt in the 1970s, passenger services had been cut back, and Amtrak had taken over significant areas of passenger travel. The North East Corridor main line ran, and continues to run, into Boston South Station, providing an express link straight into the heart of the city. For most of the first decade of Amtrak's existence (1970-1980), Amtrak's prime focus has been the renovation of the North East Corridor, but this hasn't been without an eye on the commuter operations as well, and trying to integrate them into.
Boston was one of the first few cities where the local transportation department (Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority) opted for a collaborative approach to transport in the area, and effectively partnered with Amtrak. Due to the drop in freight, and Boston's location in the corner of the country, many of the defunct railroads offered significant opportunities for public transport with little attention needed in order to cater for remaining freight operations. This collaborative approach yielded a principle in sorts; MBTA would look after transportation around Boston (within the Route 128 area), with Amtrak catering for getting passengers into the Boston area. The agreement resulted in almost instant changes as the MBTA was looking to improve Boston's subway system in the 1970s, at the same time Amtrak was looking for ways to improve efficiency.
Several extension projects were the result of the agreement. Amtrak sold the tracks on it's former Haverhill & Reading Line, from Malden Center to Reading, to the MBTA in 1974. Also included was the line from Forest Hills to Needham Heights, to fit in with MBTA's vision for the future of the Orange Line, and the branch from Cambridge to Bedford which was destined for a Red Line extension. Construction of the extensions continued slowly through the 1970s, with the Red Line South Extension (to Braintree) opening in 1980.
Commuter rail followed the opposite fashion to MBTA's expansion. Amtrak's focus on controlling costs meant several closures, notably those sold to MBTA as mentioned above, with trains from destinations further away reroute. Trains from Haverhill and Lawrence now ran via the Wildcat Branch, and the train service to Needham Heights was dropped entirely. Instead, Amtrak focussed on offering commuter routes from which they would cater for the a large area of population for minimum infrastructure needs, although Stoughton Town managed to retain service by offering to subsidise operations through their town in order to maintain the rail link to Boston.
To the north, the ex-Eastern Railroad's line to Portsmouth (New Hampshire) was trimmed back and diverted on to a branch into Amesbury. Amtrak maintained service to Portsmouth by sharing a branch from the main line to Portland, which was combined with services to Rochester.
Amtrak commuter rail operations for the Boston area (North side)
Amtrak commuter rail operations for the Boston area (South side)
---------------------
Notes: Lots to change here. Firstly the MBTA extensions - these are all projects that were debated or part done then cancelled in the 1970s. The Orange Line extension south to Needham Heights and north to Reading were debated during the 1970s in OTL, as was the Red Line to Bedford via Lexington. Financial and other pressures meant the cancellation of these, but here with a slightly different twist they might go ahead. MBTA has the tracks already - just needing electrification and resignalling. The South West Corridor that the Orange Line now lies upon from Boston Back Bay to Forest Hills was originally designated for a highway extension I believe OTL - here the alignment was quickly redesignated for the Orange Line rather then sitting for a while after a joint Amtrak/MBTA call. The Red Line will probably take longer due to financial constraints, and resistance against it by Arlington residents, so Amtrak will probably operate the line a bit longer before MBTA taking over after a compromise is worked out.
Sorry for the size of the images for those on smaller screens!
Looking back: an old MBTA subway map
Times had changed rapidly in Boston and the wider New England area. Many freight railroads had gone bankrupt in the 1970s, passenger services had been cut back, and Amtrak had taken over significant areas of passenger travel. The North East Corridor main line ran, and continues to run, into Boston South Station, providing an express link straight into the heart of the city. For most of the first decade of Amtrak's existence (1970-1980), Amtrak's prime focus has been the renovation of the North East Corridor, but this hasn't been without an eye on the commuter operations as well, and trying to integrate them into.
Boston was one of the first few cities where the local transportation department (Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority) opted for a collaborative approach to transport in the area, and effectively partnered with Amtrak. Due to the drop in freight, and Boston's location in the corner of the country, many of the defunct railroads offered significant opportunities for public transport with little attention needed in order to cater for remaining freight operations. This collaborative approach yielded a principle in sorts; MBTA would look after transportation around Boston (within the Route 128 area), with Amtrak catering for getting passengers into the Boston area. The agreement resulted in almost instant changes as the MBTA was looking to improve Boston's subway system in the 1970s, at the same time Amtrak was looking for ways to improve efficiency.
Several extension projects were the result of the agreement. Amtrak sold the tracks on it's former Haverhill & Reading Line, from Malden Center to Reading, to the MBTA in 1974. Also included was the line from Forest Hills to Needham Heights, to fit in with MBTA's vision for the future of the Orange Line, and the branch from Cambridge to Bedford which was destined for a Red Line extension. Construction of the extensions continued slowly through the 1970s, with the Red Line South Extension (to Braintree) opening in 1980.
Commuter rail followed the opposite fashion to MBTA's expansion. Amtrak's focus on controlling costs meant several closures, notably those sold to MBTA as mentioned above, with trains from destinations further away reroute. Trains from Haverhill and Lawrence now ran via the Wildcat Branch, and the train service to Needham Heights was dropped entirely. Instead, Amtrak focussed on offering commuter routes from which they would cater for the a large area of population for minimum infrastructure needs, although Stoughton Town managed to retain service by offering to subsidise operations through their town in order to maintain the rail link to Boston.
To the north, the ex-Eastern Railroad's line to Portsmouth (New Hampshire) was trimmed back and diverted on to a branch into Amesbury. Amtrak maintained service to Portsmouth by sharing a branch from the main line to Portland, which was combined with services to Rochester.
Amtrak commuter rail operations for the Boston area (North side)
Amtrak commuter rail operations for the Boston area (South side)
---------------------
Notes: Lots to change here. Firstly the MBTA extensions - these are all projects that were debated or part done then cancelled in the 1970s. The Orange Line extension south to Needham Heights and north to Reading were debated during the 1970s in OTL, as was the Red Line to Bedford via Lexington. Financial and other pressures meant the cancellation of these, but here with a slightly different twist they might go ahead. MBTA has the tracks already - just needing electrification and resignalling. The South West Corridor that the Orange Line now lies upon from Boston Back Bay to Forest Hills was originally designated for a highway extension I believe OTL - here the alignment was quickly redesignated for the Orange Line rather then sitting for a while after a joint Amtrak/MBTA call. The Red Line will probably take longer due to financial constraints, and resistance against it by Arlington residents, so Amtrak will probably operate the line a bit longer before MBTA taking over after a compromise is worked out.
Sorry for the size of the images for those on smaller screens!
I'm liking the commuter rail operations, Devvy. Just one minor quibble - the link to Providence and East Greenwich in OTL (the NEC main line in OTL, obviously) did not use Seekonk (your straight line) but it curved inwards the state line and then down into Pawtucket/Central Falls - which was how that city got service in the first place until 1981 (and which I'm hoping remains in TTL ), and then into Providence. That straight line, incidentally, was originally for serving a race track that by this point has long been gone (it's now a discount outlet store, with the track itself now home to an industrial park).
), and then into Providence. That straight line, incidentally, was originally for serving a race track that by this point has long been gone (it's now a discount outlet store, with the track itself now home to an industrial park).I'm liking the commuter rail operations, Devvy. Just one minor quibble - the link to Providence and East Greenwich in OTL (the NEC main line in OTL, obviously) did not use Seekonk (your straight line) but it curved inwards the state line and then down into Pawtucket/Central Falls - which was how that city got service in the first place until 1981 (and which I'm hoping remains in TTL
Looking at a map of the area, It looks like there is little development in the area, which means you could separate the MBTA lines from the NEC, which would be important to maintain the level of traffic on the route. Possibility?
There actually is development, to some degree - though it's mostly residential. Attleboro used to be a big jewelry-manufacturing town (it still is, to some degree) and until recently TI had huge operations there. Seekonk and the two Attleboros are also overflow for Rhode Islanders fed up with the cost of living - plus home to the Pawtucket Country Club. (I should know - it's literally near my neighbourhood!
) Not to mention that the route Devvy is taking not only has never been used for passenger service, even back in the days of the NY&NH and the P&W (it's always been a freight line - passenger services always take the curve), but it's also more or less unused. Like I said, it use to service a race track which no longer exists. However, that area is now being redeveloped as bike trails - a much better use, IMO, which is good news for me as when it's complete, it will be near my house and will be part of a statewide network of bike trails. For the time being, therefore, it's mainly freight only, and even then it hasn't been used in decades.In addition, here's a tricky bit - that route also uses what we Rhode Islanders call "the little red bridge" - even though it's neither little, nor red, nor even a bridge:
There's no way you're going to get that back into service, ever.
The curve aiming towards the OTL South Attleboro station, by contrast, is a much better option as that's long been used in passenger service. Plus, it would help retain service in Pawtucket/Central Falls - which there was in OTL until 1981, and which I had already made a request for service to be retained in TTL (along with service to Woonsocket, which I'm greatly pleased is still happening
). All that's needed really is to spruce up the station - even by the 1970s, it was looking quite tired and could use a major spring cleaning (and restoration - it's a historic building!) - and get rid of the horrendous shade of red on the exterior bricks. (Interestingly, South Attleboro is a new station that was created in OTL when service to Rhode Island was shut down. As there's tons of commuters to Boston who live in Rhode Island, South Attleboro was the closest the MBTA could get to Rhode Island without being in it. Later on, service was gradually restored but the South Attleboro station survives - which is good, as that means it's a short walk for me to get to the Commuter Rail from my house. So retaining service on the curve to Pawtucket/Central Falls, Providence, and beyond from Attleboro would have the effect of no South Attleboro station, which means that the Holiday Inn that a factory and the MBTA station are located now would remain.)
I just have a little nitpick about the vision commuter rail. It would have been much more logical fire Amtrak to extend to Worcester before getting to Woonsocket or south of Providence. Also in regards to Woonsocket, it would maker more sense for then to have service to Providence instead of Boston and diverting theFranklin line north top Milford. Just my perspective on this.
Sources: i live on the Franklin line.
Sources: i live on the Franklin line.
You can do both a Worcester extension and extending service to Woonsocket, particularly if Worcester is on the new TTL's NEC main line.
Back in the 1970s and up until service to Rhode Island was closed in OTL in 1981, however, the Woonsocket service never went to Providence (because many of the RoWs in that area have largely been abandoned and have been built over, with the rare exceptions of P&W freight-only lines); it only went to Boston via the Franklin Line, though IIRC it was a branch of the Franklin Line and never the sole terminus. The reason? A good portion of the people living in the Woonsocket area were (and still are) Boston commuters.
And my mother used to live in Burrillville, and was alive when the train used to come to Woonsocket and remembers when it stopped running. In OTL, a big storm knocked out the bridge connecting the two ends together; when service was resumed, Woonsocket was left out, making many residents VERY angry and frustrated. In TTL, of course, it will be different. I'm happy the service to Woonsocket is retained.
And here's another idea for *Amtrak. From 1986-1996, Amtrak used to operate a weekend train to Cape Cod from DC. However, the lack of most rail service in Cape Cod hindered its success. As can be attested here: http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19970511/NEWS/305119962&cid=sitesearch/
So, what could make Cape Cod service a success? In my opinion, now that we have JFK as Amtrak's de facto terminus instead of Penn Station, here's how I'd do it:
>Two trains in operation - one Boston-Hyannis (with daily service, to service commuters, plus express service ) from South Station using the existing Middleborough/Lakeville Line, and another JFK-Hyannis/DC-Hyannis/Providence-Hyannis (all with weekend service, mainly express from JFK or DC but local from Providence), using more or less the OTL "Cape Codder" route. With a twist. As the switch is located in Attleboro, Attleboro could be used as a stop on the JFK-Hyannis route. After the switch, Taunton (an OTL "Cape Codder" stop, with a still-existing railway station) would be next, then the Middleborough/Lakeville station. From there the route is simple - it would be Middleborough/Lakeville--Wareham--Buzzards Bay--Sandwich--Hyannis.
>From there, one would then start to restore local service (particularly on the Boston-Hyannis daily schedule) radiating from Hyannis - so on weekdays from Boston you'd have an intermediate stop at West Barnstable, and on "local" intra-Cape Cod routes you'd therefore have Hyannis-Buzzards Bay, Hyannis-Chatham, and Hyannis-Provincetown. This butterflies away the OTL Cape Cod Rail Trail as much of the rail trail lies on the route that the new Cape Cod local service will use. In most cases, though, the tracks will have to be rebuilt. The Cape Cod local routes would definitely have a daily schedule and would be integrated with the existing bus and trolley network, though obviously the train would shoulder much of the ridership. Both the local routes and the service from Boston, Providence, JFK, and DC would coëxist with an existing dinner train service which is owned by a separate company. Restoring local train service would help alleviate some of the complaints regarding the low takeup of the service, and now the bus network can be orientated around the train network.
That would be a start, at least.
From 1986-1996, Amtrak used to operate a weekend train to Cape Cod from DC. However, the lack of most rail service in Cape Cod hindered its success. As can be attested here: http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19970511/NEWS/305119962&cid=sitesearch/So, what could make Cape Cod service a success? In my opinion, now that we have JFK as Amtrak's de facto terminus instead of Penn Station, here's how I'd do it:
>Two trains in operation - one Boston-Hyannis (with daily service, to service commuters, plus express service ) from South Station using the existing Middleborough/Lakeville Line, and another JFK-Hyannis/DC-Hyannis/Providence-Hyannis (all with weekend service, mainly express from JFK or DC but local from Providence), using more or less the OTL "Cape Codder" route. With a twist. As the switch is located in Attleboro, Attleboro could be used as a stop on the JFK-Hyannis route. After the switch, Taunton (an OTL "Cape Codder" stop, with a still-existing railway station) would be next, then the Middleborough/Lakeville station. From there the route is simple - it would be Middleborough/Lakeville--Wareham--Buzzards Bay--Sandwich--Hyannis.
>From there, one would then start to restore local service (particularly on the Boston-Hyannis daily schedule) radiating from Hyannis - so on weekdays from Boston you'd have an intermediate stop at West Barnstable, and on "local" intra-Cape Cod routes you'd therefore have Hyannis-Buzzards Bay, Hyannis-Chatham, and Hyannis-Provincetown. This butterflies away the OTL Cape Cod Rail Trail as much of the rail trail lies on the route that the new Cape Cod local service will use. In most cases, though, the tracks will have to be rebuilt. The Cape Cod local routes would definitely have a daily schedule and would be integrated with the existing bus and trolley network, though obviously the train would shoulder much of the ridership. Both the local routes and the service from Boston, Providence, JFK, and DC would coëxist with an existing dinner train service which is owned by a separate company. Restoring local train service would help alleviate some of the complaints regarding the low takeup of the service, and now the bus network can be orientated around the train network.
That would be a start, at least.
I love it too - it's such a charm. It deserves a better fate than what it got in OTL.
Devvy
Donor
Glad you're still enjoying it!
As for roads....I'm not sure they'll be massively affected yet. Rail operations have been cut back massively, there's still rationalisation going on, and the car is the easiest form of transportation. However, as congestion sets in, that's going to rapidly shift.
I'm liking the commuter rail operations, Devvy. Just one minor quibble - the link to Providence and East Greenwich in OTL (the NEC main line in OTL, obviously) did not use Seekonk (your straight line) but it curved inwards the state line and then down into Pawtucket/Central Falls - which was how that city got service in the first place until 1981 (and which I'm hoping remains in TTL
Thanks for the heads up even if it did take me a while to notice the mistake on the map! Corrected! Genuine mistake, rather then intention - I did mean for the line to follow the OTL NEC through Providence.
Most of the NEC from Boston to Providence will be quadruple track still, with commuter services using the outer tracks. It'll be important for Amtrak to divert as many services as possible through as few track miles as possible to save money. I had thought about the branches to Fall River and New Bedford to branch off from the NEC at Mansfield towards Taunton and on, but the discovery that the Stoughton Council itself paid a subsidy to retain rail service shifted the route.
And here's another idea for *Amtrak.
So, what could make Cape Cod service a success? In my opinion, now that we have JFK as Amtrak's de facto terminus instead of Penn Station, here's how I'd do it:
>Two trains in operation - one Boston-Hyannis (with daily service, to service commuters, plus express service ) from South Station using the existing Middleborough/Lakeville Line, and another JFK-Hyannis/DC-Hyannis/Providence-Hyannis (all with weekend service, mainly express from JFK or DC but local from Providence), using more or less the OTL "Cape Codder" route. With a twist. As the switch is located in Attleboro, Attleboro could be used as a stop on the JFK-Hyannis route. After the switch, Taunton (an OTL "Cape Codder" stop, with a still-existing railway station) would be next, then the Middleborough/Lakeville station. From there the route is simple - it would be Middleborough/Lakeville--Wareham--Buzzards Bay--Sandwich--Hyannis.
>From there, one would then start to restore local service (particularly on the Boston-Hyannis daily schedule) radiating from Hyannis - so on weekdays from Boston you'd have an intermediate stop at West Barnstable, and on "local" intra-Cape Cod routes you'd therefore have Hyannis-Buzzards Bay, Hyannis-Chatham, and Hyannis-Provincetown. This butterflies away the OTL Cape Cod Rail Trail as much of the rail trail lies on the route that the new Cape Cod local service will use. In most cases, though, the tracks will have to be rebuilt. The Cape Cod local routes would definitely have a daily schedule and would be integrated with the existing bus and trolley network, though obviously the train would shoulder much of the ridership. Both the local routes and the service from Boston, Providence, JFK, and DC would coëxist with an existing dinner train service which is owned by a separate company. Restoring local train service would help alleviate some of the complaints regarding the low takeup of the service, and now the bus network can be orientated around the train network.
That would be a start, at least.
Interesting notes. I plan to have Cape Cod services back by the current day in this TL, and those ideas are some food for thought.