Ministry of Space, or Briiiiiits iiiiin Spaaaaace!

[birdy]

Birdie

Possibly, although if Britain and the US are more rivals then British influence will probably be less welcome in the US. [Possibly a French invasion?]. Unless its a factor of a youth counter-culture reacting against their more conservative elders. In that case the mistrusted Brits might seem more attractive to young Americans.

Steve

I suppose it depends on just how much rivals they are, if American children/teens are taught that Britain is an enemy etc etc then probably less British invasion, however if the British are just another country the government keeps disagreeing with on TV then maybe they wouldnt mind.

it would be interesting to see how the British and US publics view each other in TTL, i think there was a lot of anglophobia in the 50's and even OTL a lot of misinformation about the UK for example Irish Americans belived NI Catholics couldnt vote in the 70's etc etc.

then again if the UK is generally mistrusted/disliked by many older americans, their juniors could just be more open minded/curious (or rebellious if your older and dont approve ).

Bluenote, sorry to keep suggesting things but the government regarded the Middle East as essential to maintaining British world power status, you've got them staying sortoff in Iran and probably Suez, where else? i believe Jordan was pro British or something and there was a plan to have British Military bases in Palestine/Israel due to its better climate, prehaps as a base for any future interventions in area, (before they pulled out) also many people wanted Israel in Commonwealth, so prehaps they stay there for military base potential.

 

[M.Passit]

Bluenote, sorry to keep suggesting things but the government regarded the Middle East as essential to maintaining British world power status, you've got them staying sortoff in Iran and probably Suez, where else? i believe Jordan was pro British or something and there was a plan to have British Military bases in Palestine/Israel due to its better climate, prehaps as a base for any future interventions in area, (before they pulled out) also many people wanted Israel in Commonwealth, so prehaps they stay there for military base potential.

I agree that Britain has to maintain some sort of pro-British governments in the Middle East. Before we can introduce high tech car, powerplants, fluel cell, Britain need easy access to cheap energy, especially oil. Saudi Arabia could turn to U.S., but places that were British protectorate: Kuwait, Trucial States, even Oman, could have pro-British policy.

One thing though, would there be any Israel ITTL? Palestine was British mandate, will the Brit withdraw from there, maybe to reinforce Jordan? I'm doubt that the Brit in this point will care much about Jewish homeland. The Jewish people could go settle in various parts of the Commonwealt, so why they should bother creating something that would offend the Middle East? The U.S. might want to, but the instability post war world might prevent them. Will they want to create something that will destabilize the Middle East and eventually bring in the Soviet, or make the region even more pro-British?

 

[birdy]

One thing though, would there be any Israel ITTL? Palestine was British mandate, will the Brit withdraw from there, maybe to reinforce Jordan? I'm doubt that the Brit in this point will care much about Jewish homeland. The Jewish people could go settle in various parts of the Commonwealt, so why they should bother creating something that would offend the Middle East? The U.S. might want to, but the instability post war world might prevent them. Will they want to create something that will destabilize the Middle East and eventually bring in the Soviet, or make the region even more pro-British?

well Jewish homeland probably isnt considered essential to British govt, though i presume theres was much sympathy for holocaust victims, your right about the Jews prehaps being able to settle in the UK and Commonwealth, but i think they were thinking OTL of Palestine remaining linked to UK after mandate expired with miltitary bases etc + so its just a thought i had.

goddamit i talk too much

 

[Mr.Bluenote]

Part IV
Money was no object. They had not realised - few had - that Britain was bankrupt!
- Ivan Southall, Woomera, 1962.

If we die, we want people to accept it. We're in a risky business, and we hope if anything happens to us, it will not delay the program. The conquest of space is worth the risk of life!
- Gus Grissom.

While war and fear of war dominated much of the world, life in Britain, the Empire and Commonwealth slowly began to return to normal. As the National Foundation for Unity and Restructuring - NFUR – began to make its presence felt, the rationing of most everyday things like for tea (and coffee as well), eggs, sugar and dairy products were lifted. Nor were coal rationed for long, but various forms of fuel would be under some form of rationing for the rest the 40’s. By blatant manipulation, subterfuge, reuse of Lloyd George’s National Insurance Act and just good management of resources, the NFUR ever so slowly brought the British economy out of its decline. The hardline stand – meaning no money for the US if Britain itself did not get paid (just another nail in the US-British coffin, but at the time few Brits really cared) what it was found to be owed by France, the USSR, Poland, Czechoslovakia and numerous other wartime allies - of Churchill and later Atlee in regards to wartime loans and such like provided the necessary breathing space for Britains almost ruined economy to recover. With more money in their pockets the Britsihs had the means to create a consumer based economy that eventually would lay the foundation for the modern British economy and fuel the Economic Miracle of the Commonwealth. The fact that the NFUR did much to improve the housing situation as well did much to endear Churchill’s Social Conservative policies to the general public, that and his Basic Healthcare Programme under the Our Furture is Bright-programme. As a sidenote, the massive rebuilding programme sponsored by the National Foundation for Unity and Restructuring also brought new materials and architucture to Britain – the spread of the prefabricated bungalow to the British Isles are a prime example. For most of the 50’s Functionalism was the dominant trend in Architecture and design, and was quite ironically spearheaded by the French-sounding Charles-Edouard Jeanneret. In the early 50’s, after the International Congress on Astronautics in London and the coronation of Queen Elizabeth in 1952, many a Briton and Commonwealth citizen alike talked about a Golden Second Elizabethan Age.

“We must lose the Empire in order to preserve it. But it must be a different Empire, an Empire where we in the brotherhood that is the British Commonwealth of Nations shall stand by each other in joy as well as sorrow! We must share all burdens and rewards equally for only as brothers can we survive and thrive in this new world, where an Iron Curtain has descended upon Eastern Europe and a Fortress of Ignorance arisen in the Americas. The eyes of the world now look to us, the Commonwealth of Nations to create a better future. As part of that dream we must look into space, to the moon and to the planets beyond!” It is with those words at the International Congress on Astronautics in 1951, Primeminister Winston S. Churchill inspired not only the Britons, but subjects of the Commonwealth Nations all over the world. He challenged them to reach beyond Earth and seek their joint fortunes out in unsailed territory. Most people of course knew that he was referring to space, so with this speech Churchill had given birth ot the very impressive British Space Programme.

Unfortunately Churchill would never live to see the first man, a Briton, naturally, in space, nor the launch of the first man-made satellite. One tragic June morning in 1952, PM Churchill died of cardiac-arrest. Doctors belived the heart-attack to be stress-related. Being Primeminster in a troubled time had been too much for the elderly statesman. But Churchill’s much bemourned death, that truly grieved a billion people – his funeral was quite spectacular as hundreds of former East European refugees marched past his coffin, often in colourfull and exotic uniforms and many an emotional speech were given (Cossack-General Andrei Shkuro’s among the most touching) - and made a quite few sigh in relief, would not be in vain. Together with his now famous speech at the International Congress on Astronautics, Churchill’s death galvanized the various Nations of the Commonwealth Nation’s resolve and inspired generation of young men and women to reach for space and unity.

Churchill did, however, live to see his Commonwealth of Nations taking off, with the emerging democracy in South Africa, a beginning peace in India and the forming of the Malaysian Confederation between Singapore, Malaya, Sabah (North Borneo), Brunei and Sarawak. Sadly he also oversaw the lowering of the British colours in Transjordan, Palestine, Hong Kong, Nigeria, Cameroun, Sudan, Gambia, Ceylon, Burma, the Gold Coast Togoland and several other places deemed either unfit or simply too impossible to keep in the Commonwealth. Even more sad is the criticism often placed upon Churchill and his cabinet for the decission to withdraw from so much of the Empire in such a fashion – the British “overnight” withdrawal often caused near civil war and genociades in the various locals evacuated. In a few special cases, locals deemed loyal and usefull subjects were given time to relocated. In Palestine a purely humanitarian interest made the British evacuate whoever was interested to mostly Rhodesia, but also Souht Africa and Kenya. Pershaps in an attempt to atone for past sins, the Polish Regiments, and the Don Light Horse – a British Cossack Regiment -, played a vital role in securing a peacefull exit from Palestine and Transjordan

As the Chinese War heated up, with American and Soviet troops being deployed in increasing numbers on each side, Britain exploded a Commonwealth developed atomic weapon at the Emu Test Site in Australia. Initially, the British government relied upon the new series of V-bombers from the Royal Air Force to deliver the atomic weapons to their targets with the V-type bombers, but soon it was realised, as suspected, that these aircraft were too vulnerable to especially the Soviet Union’s impressive air defenses based newly developed and deployed surface-to-air missiles and superguns. Thus the British drew the concluson that missiles were the answer to the new air defence systems being deployed in ever increasing numbers around the world – the RAF with all its might had not been able to stop the German V2 onslaught on London during the War. Meanwhile, the Americans found that they needed heavier bombers, capable of reaching higher altitudes and carrying bigger payloads. Soon, the Soviets Unions’s Red Army Air Force followed their lead. So while in Britain it was found that long range ballistic missiles would not only be preferable, but absolutely vital to national security in the future, bigger and bigger bombers took to the skies in Soviet Russia and the United States of America..

In 1954 the DoR’s Striker guidance system programme under the Ministry of Aviation developed a highly accurate inertial guidance systems. In the same periode the Americans, and soon after British themselves, tested a new ind of atomic weapon; the fearsome Hydrogene-bomb. The H-bomb, as it simply became known, was of such hitherto unimaginable power that there was less need to use a highly accurate delivery system as needed for the less powerfull A-bombs. Missiles were most definitely in and development were pushed further and faster. The Department of Rocketry was soon one of the largest entities in the British Military, soaking up men and resources to a degree that began to worry the British Minister of Defence and quite a few Generals (not to speak of the Admirals, who saw ship after ship laid up).

Needless to say, the Atlee Government was not happy with the mounting expenses, an uhappiness that in tandem with the lack of support for the Space Programme would spell the end of the first, last and only post-war Labour government. Nonetheless, Atlee was quite popular - even if seen by many a Briton as soft on the main issues - and served a full term between 1952 and 1956. With the Conservatives, this time led by the capable Churchillite Anthony Eden, back in Downing Street nr. 10, focus was back on missiles, rockets and the ultimate High Ground.

 

[Mr.Bluenote]

Namibia and both Rhodesias - probably never split in this ATL- are stil in the Commenwealth! I did a near-list in the latest post - Part IV of which a good deal is new material (I split the old Part IV into two and rewrote most of it/them).

I don't know about a Black-Dog moment as depression would make you feel more helpless and incapable of doing anything about problems (...)

Ah, yes, but I seem to remember having read that Churchill often reacted almost manically after the BD-moments and many of his "mistakes" were often made during such times. I have a sneaking suspicion that Churchill was manio-depressive to a slight degree.

If not, given the long history of low birth-rate in France and if Algeria is still fully incorporated, you might have a near majority Muslim France by this time. That would complicate French politics a lot so suspect there would be trouble before then.

If they were able to hold onto Algeria they might well still be in Lebanon at least, possibly in alliance with the Christians there against Syrian pressure? However think Indo-China is too far away and too close to China.

Considering that Algeria was part of France until the 60's, and Indo-China was only barely lost, I think a more well-equipped French Army along with a better, more stable economy and political environment - I intend to get rid of DeGaulls post-war time in office and replace him with a victorious general from the successfull Indo-Chinese War - could well ensure victory in Alegria and Indo-China.

Yes, French domestic politics will be very interesting with Algeria as part of Metropolitan France. I think a few hardline anti-Soviet Pied-Noire politians will prove quite successfull in this France (Camus perhaps).

And as said, I think the bonds with Indo-China will be rather loose. Perhaps defence and foreign policy is being run/controlled form Paris, but more or less everything else is being done by the local governments in Indo-China?

China will be a right wing military dictatorship backed by the US for a looong time, so I don't think that will cause too many problems. Btw I recently read the People's Republic of Manchuria-thread and was wondering whether such a place might emerge as a Communist haven under Soviet protection in this ATL after Mao's defeat?

Lebanon shall stay under a French aegis then, while Syria wanders its own way into Pan-Arabism and a close relationship with the USSR?

(...) [Don't know, presuming an eventual collapse of the Portuguese empire, whether you might have something like OTL Mozambique joining the Commonwealth. A prosperous and stable multi-racial system with considerable economic and political clout might well be very attractive to them. Especially if they see it as an protection against any cold war between the US-France and Soviet blocs.

The US support of France might butterfly into support at some level for both Belgium and Portugal in their struggle to keep their respctive Empires together? Maybe France will throw its weight behind said countries in order to keep to the colonials from getting the improper idea that one can stand up to an European power?

Some of the smaller places would also be very important, if only because of their location. (...)

Quiet so, but a Britain focused sole on defending itself and its closests allies will be more subjective and less needy in terms of bases far and wide, I should think, but I do get your point, Steve.

Just a thought. If Britain and the US are more rivals in this TL and there was a crisis over the Falklands might you see the US giving at least some diplomatic support to the Argentineans?

Hehe, yes, that could be rather fun, neh? I like it!

Thanks for all the work you're put in. Fascinating story

Thank you very much, Steve, and you are more than welcome - I enjoy (re)writing it immensely!

(...) are you thinking of having Britain itself lose any colonies in the immdeiate postwar yrs, maybe Burma or somewhere....

The British West Indies could eventually be merged into the West Indies Federation as planned OTL, not sure if Jamaica was gonna join since its by far the biggest.

anyway to mimic others...very good story!!

Yup, as seen in the recent post - Part IV. Unless you mean losing some colonies they'd rather hang on to?

I like the idea about a West Indies Federation. I think I'll run with it, if it's ok with you?

Btw regarding France (I wrote some stuff above), I don't think France will be that weak, not compared to OTL where they did fairly well all things considered!

And thanks once again - it's very good to hear!

What about the pop culture? Were beatles and Rolling Stones in mid-late 60s in this timeline,or the most popular pop star in 1966 were the Shadow and Cliff Richard ?

Actually, I haven't thought much about it, but I suspect that the British Invasion will be put off, but India and the Commenwealth in general is quite a marked in itself!

Still, as Steve notes, the Brit Bands could prove successfull with the younger Americans eager to pis, eh, annoy their elders!

Is it something I should think/write more about?

Bluenote, sorry to keep suggesting things but the government regarded the Middle East as essential to maintaining British world power status, you've got them staying sortoff in Iran and probably Suez, where else? i believe Jordan was pro British or something and there was a plan to have British Military bases in Palestine/Israel due to its better climate, prehaps as a base for any future interventions in area, (before they pulled out) also many people wanted Israel in Commonwealth, so prehaps they stay there for military base potential.

Suggest away, Birdie! This ATL would be dead in the water if not for suggestions, ideas and comments from you guys!

I rather agree with you, but have the Brits pull out of Palestine and Transjordan in the latets post nonetheless. The Middle East is poison for any greater power, especially one walking close to bankruptcy!

I even consider having the Brits hand over Cyprus to Greece/USA? The Suez should be safe enough with plenty of ground troops in the Channel Zone and bases on Malta and the Rock or?

I agree that Britain has to maintain some sort of pro-British governments in the Middle East. Before we can introduce high tech car, powerplants, fluel cell, Britain need easy access to cheap energy, especially oil. Saudi Arabia could turn to U.S., but places that were British protectorate: Kuwait, Trucial States, even Oman, could have pro-British policy.

Indeed, and I agree, but we have Kuwait, Persia, Brunei and, I suspect the Gulf States, firmly in the British camp. Iraq and Saudi Arabia will probably be major oil suppliers as well.

And no, there will be no Israel, at least not in the Middle East.

goddamit i talk too much

Not at all!

I Hope you like the newest post of MoS!

Best regards and all!

- Bluenote.

 

[stevep]

Bluenote

On the European colonies.

a) It would take quite a change for the Us to support European colonialism against prolonged violent resistance. While some Presidents might find the idea useful it would be difficult to avoid a lot of division in US public opinion on the issue.

b) On the Belgium Congo, from what I have read [albeit briefly and a long while ago] they had a very paternalistic system but with virtually no real roll for the native population. Then when people started pushing for independence they decided to leave quite rapidly, which was one reason things went to pot so much as there were few locals with experience of managing even local government, medicine etc. As such, unless there are major changes I think Belgium will not want to maintain their colony once elements in it starts agitating for independence. Hopefully it would be handled better so it doesn't become such a basket case. [Might be interesting prospects for some sort of Commonwealth intervention to try and maintain stability in the region and a 3 way clash between them, pro-US interests and hard left elements seeking support from Moscow].

c) On the Portuguese colonies the dictatorship in Lisbon hung onto them for quite a while and might last longer with support from the US and France. However, on the other hand, a more democratic set of Commonwealth states in the region will probably be unhappy with such a presence. This could be anything from continued political pressure, economic boycotts and refuge for moderate pro-independence elements to support for guerrilla resistance movements.

d) One interesting development could be with Portuguese colonies elsewhere. India took Goa by force in ~1961 OTL and the Chinese communists waited until a deal was negotiated over Macao. Depending on the relationships you could have similar things or differences. For instant a right wing China the US wants to keep on-side might well demand the return of Macao and get US backing.

e) I have found the Communist Manchuria interesting as well. Suspect if it came to that the corruption of Chaing's Komingtang could leave their government weak in terms of popular support so unless Mao goes off the rails as he did so often once supreme ruler of China there could be a lot of tension in that region and continued low-level conflict. If you presume US support for the French in Indo-China and an anti-Communist stance in general then expect Ho-Chi Ming (sp?) to cause problems there as well.

A lot would depend on how active the British Commonwealth was as a 3rd force but it sounds like its too weak economically in the early decades to make a major impact unless somewhere where the other two don't have too strong an interest. Also a lot depends on the situation in India. That can provide a lot of resources, not just manpower, but if a highly neutralist government, say with strong influence from Gandhi, it is likely to make intervention more difficult.

Anyway a few more ideas to the pot.

Steve

 

[birdy]

i agree with SteveP's comments on whether the US public would support the propping up of European empires... prehaps the US government makes it clear they only want Europe in the various colonies untill they can join the western camp to placate US public.

Glad you like the West Indies Federation idea use it all you want.

If the US decide to give France nuclear secrets, probably France becomes a nuclear power earlier then OTL (1960)

 

[birdy]

regarding Argentina and the Falklands, its easy to imagine they wouldnt bother trying to get it at all, since i'd imagine the British would have several Carrier groups, possibly 1 being based around Simonstowne (just outside Cape Town, S A) and they would also have better logistics among many other things, esp if its far enought into the TL for the 'British Commonwealth Economic Miracle' or whatever to bear fruit.

1 question- earlier you said 'Jeffrey Archer calls the Indonesians the Rhodesians or Poles of the US' or something to that effect, my question is- when referring to Poland do you mean as an ally of the SU or that later after the SU's collapse, Poland becomes an ally of Britain, you've mentioned Chuchill is held in high regard there in TTL.

 

[birdy]

When the next set of RN Aircraft Carriers are laid down, they could be known as the Queen Elizabeth Class as that was the plan OTL with the projected 60,000 tonne (i think) conventionally powered ships which were never built.

OTL 2 were planned, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Duke of Edinburgh,

if your gonna have more Carriers, probably larger and maybe nuclear powered, prehaps some of the cost could be bourne by several Commonwealth nations.....

might i suggest some hypothetical names

Queen Elizabeth Class:
HMS Queen Elizabeth
HMS Duke of Edinburgh
HMS Prince of Wales
HMS Royal Sovereign

Or alternativly

Churchill Class
HMS Churchill
HMS Commonwealth
HMS Illustrious
HMS Hood

Thats assuming they build 4 or something, there still outnumbered by the US but not the Soviets and if its the late 50's/early 60's they still cant afford ''that much'' compared to the US.
+ they've still got the OTL Ark Royal, Eagle and Victorious and the 4 centuar class light fleet carriers so with any new ones that should even out the numbers a bit.

 

[M.Passit]

The Second Elizabethan Age Thinking that in queen Elizabeth I early reign, England was in a real dire state, almost ruined even, but when she passed away, England was powerful and rich. The same go with Queen Elizabeth II too. A true Second Elizabethan Age in every senses of words!

I also find that a communist Manchuria is very interesting too. But what about Sinkiang(Xinjiang)? It's in the far west, bordered the Soviet, and have a very different culture from the rest of China. If Manchuria did become a communist haven, then Sinkiang will too. I just can't see the Chinese keep Sinkiang if they couldn't keep Manchuria.

What's the status of Thibet? And should I keep Gyana, Bahamas and Belize in the Commonwealth? Are the Gulf States (Oman, Aden, Kuwait and Trucial States) in the commonwealth or just firmly in British camp? Korea is united or seperated? Will Finland still finlandized or the Soviet overtake it? Northern and Southern Rhodesia are united, right? without Malawi? What about Ireland?

So, Algeria will be a part of metropolitan France, what about Tunisia. What countries will be in French Union(apart from Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, French Congo, Gabon)? Ivory Coast? Senegal? New Caledonia? French Polynesia?

Nice installment! Waiting for another good work.

 

[Mr.Bluenote]

It would take quite a change for the Us to support European colonialism against prolonged violent resistance.

In a world where Communism and Stalin in person is more or less identified as evil incarnate by most westerners from day one of the post-war period, I think the mood will be they-might-be-bastards-but-they-are-our-anti-Commie-friendly-bastards. Furthermore, the US is for a good time quite alone in their fight against Communism as Britan and the Commonwealth are too weak to do much more than fall back and regroup so to say. Basically, the US fight the Greek Civil War, stabilizes Itay, France and Germany all by their lonesome and, not to forget, get involved first hand in China. Truman was a tough man and very hardline in his stance against Communism in OTL, I suspect that all bets are off in this ATL and any friend is a good friend...

On the Belgium Congo, from what I have read [albeit briefly and a long while ago] they had a very paternalistic system (...) Might be interesting prospects for some sort of Commonwealth intervention to try and maintain stability in the region and a 3 way clash between them, pro-US interests and hard left elements seeking support from Moscow.

Yes, Congo was bad, no doubt about that, but would the Belgians leave voluntarily if urged to stay and aided by especially France? With a victory in Indo-China, and Algeria/The Empire under control, I can see French hubris growing to enormous propotions.

Anyway, I like the idea. Full scale civil war in Congo it is with intervention cover and overt by all sides - it would be fun to see Green Berets gain fame in the Jungles of Congo while the valiant chaps from Sterling and Sterling duke it out with Bulgarian and (East) German sol, eh, advisors and Belgian Paras in one big free for all fight.

Btw I recently read the thread about the Aliies reaching Berlin first. In this ATL will East Germany actually appear? What about a rump Prussian state as suggested in said thread?

I dont really know what to do with the Portuguese Colonial Empire, but I would suspct that China will wnat Macao back, just a siOndia will wnat Goa. That said I think the Americans will help, to a certain degree, the Junta in Lisbon with financing and equipment, if the colonials are seen as Pro-Soviet that is. A cool twist would be for the rebels to be pro-Commonwealth wouldn't it?

A Communist Manchuria People's Republic under Soviet contr, oops, protection and guardianship as a mirror of OTL's Taiwan could work, couldn't it? At least I think I'll run with that idea.

A lot would depend on how active the British Commonwealth was as a 3rd force but it sounds like its too weak economically in the early decades to make a major impact unless somewhere where the other two don't have too strong an interest.(...)

Exactly my thoughts! Somewhere around the early 60's I suspect the Commeonwealth will be able to flex its newfound military and ecomonic mucles to some efect! Untill then it's more likely to be political and very discrete and covert military actions that are taken.

Anyway a few more ideas to the pot.

Do throw some more into the pot, Steve - as you might have noticed I actually use a lot of the stuff you guys come up with, or at the very least let it inspire me!

Thanks for all your suggestions and musings, Steve!

(...) prehaps the US government makes it clear they only want Europe in the various colonies untill they can join the western camp to placate US public.

Good points, Birdie! I think it'll be a fine balance between the need for Allies and the American distaste for Colonial Empires

If the US decide to give France nuclear secrets, probably France becomes a nuclear power earlier then OTL (1960)

That might very well be, yes! Or the French with better means invest in atomic power/weapons even earlier than OTL. I can still se them going thier own ways when it suites Paris, no matter what Washington think - this is France afterall!

regarding Argentina and the Falklands, its easy to imagine they wouldnt bother trying to get it at all, since i'd imagine the British would have several Carrier groups, possibly 1 being based around Simonstowne (just outside Cape Town, S A) and they would also have better logistics among many other things, esp if its far enought into the TL for the 'British Commonwealth Economic Miracle' or whatever to bear fruit.

Yeah, the Falklands will probably be evacuated, and yet, it is a British territory with British inhabitants, not some Godforsaken "foreign" part of the world. They might stay on, as it would cost them little?

Nonetheless, I kinda like the idea of some sort of confrontation between Argentine with the US in its corner and the British backed by their allies in the Commonwealth.

1 question- earlier you said 'Jeffrey Archer calls the Indonesians the Rhodesians or Poles of the US' or something to that effect, my question is- when referring to Poland do you mean as an ally of the SU or that later after the SU's collapse, Poland becomes an ally of Britain, you've mentioned Chuchill is held in high regard there in TTL.

Ah, sorry if that wasn't quite clear. I suppose that the Polish and Czech Governments-in-Exile and the military units under their control will be around for a long time - a good bargaining chip for repayment and whatnot of whatever Britain finds the new Communist regimes in Poland and Czechoslovakia owes them. Anyway, I see the London-Poles, and Czechs as well as the Cossacks, as kind of British Foreign Legion for years to come. Ever so slowly the Regiments are filled with new non-Polish, Czech and Cossack recruites, but still bear a rather exotic unit tradition and history as well as dashingly strange uniforms and customs. And yes, Chuchill is very much rspected/loved in said countries because he stood up for the Poles etc etc in sharp contast to the way they were treated in OTL!

Good post regarding the Carriers btw. I'll use the suggestions without shame! Oh, and thanks for letting me use the West Indies-idea as well.

In that regard I was thinking about a confederation including all of Britains West Indian territoties etc etc ala the Malaysian Confederation between Singapore, Malaya, Sabah (North Borneo), Brunei and Sarawak. How do that sound?

The Second Elizabethan Age Thinking that in queen Elizabeth I early reign, England was in a real dire state, almost ruined even, but when she passed away, England was powerful and rich. The same go with Queen Elizabeth II too. A true Second Elizabethan Age in every senses of words!

Yes, it's a pretty cool phrase is it not? I like it a lot, which is of course why I stole it! And nice comparison btw, Passit - it makes the phrase even more appropriate!

I also find that a communist Manchuria is very interesting too. But what about Sinkiang(Xinjiang)? It's in the far west, bordered the Soviet, and have a very different culture from the rest of China. If Manchuria did become a communist haven, then Sinkiang will too. I just can't see the Chinese keep Sinkiang if they couldn't keep Manchuria.

I don't necessarily think that the People's Republic of Manchuria will follow the borders of Manchuria as such, but more likely be whatever territory the Soviets are truly willing to fight for, so Manchuria plus Sinkiang would do nicely, yes!

Or Sinkiang could be a flash point for years to come, where Chinese forces will try to pacify the region, while PRoM keep sending men and material into the area. A mirror image of OTL Kashmere perhaps?

What's the status of Thibet?

Free country, as don't see China being able to take it, even if the US would think it a good idea.

And should I keep Gyana, Bahamas in the Commonwealth? Are the Gulf States (Oman, Aden, Kuwait and Trucial States) in the commonwealth or just firmly in British camp?[/QUOTE]
Bahamas could be part of the West Indies Confederation, could it not? Along with Bermuda?

Hmm, I don't really know about the Gulf States... What do you say? Commonwealth members? Associated members? "Occupied" territory? Totally independent? I tend to think independent, but very fiendly nations with some British/Commonwealth bases?

British Guyana, the Mosquito Coast and British Honduras will be evacuated, I think! No need to mess about there, right?

Korea is united or seperated?

Hmm, part of Manchuria, perhaps? Otherwise I could see the US unify the country during the Chinese War!

Will Finland still finlandized or the Soviet overtake it?

Independent country under close Soviet watch!

Northern and Southern Rhodesia are united, right? without Malawi?

Njah, why not let Nyasaland (that is modern day Malawi, right?) be part of Rhodesia? Or we could have Nyasaland/Malawi be a little cozy flash point for the Cossack to have fun with?

Nice installment! Waiting for another good work.

Thanks, Passit! And thank you for all the trouble making the maps! I'm very grateful!

I'll try to post next chapter rather quickly!

Thanks for all your insights and ideas!

My regards!

- Mr. B.

 

[Mr.Bluenote]

So, Algeria will be a part of metropolitan France, what about Tunisia. What countries will be in French Union(apart from Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, French Congo, Gabon)? Ivory Coast? Senegal? New Caledonia? French Polynesia?

Ooops, forgot this one - sorry!

Eh, unless there are loud screams of anguish then I suppose the entire lot stays with the French. Would it be possble to colour code France itself and Algeria - Met. France, that is - in a slightly darker clour than the rest of the Empire, Passit?

And once more, thank you for all the work with the various maps, it is truly very kind of you!

Regards!

- B.

 

[lounge60]

Real British spacesuit.

This is a real experimental British pressure suit of 60s.

 

[lounge60]

Another real experimental British full pressure suit.Late 50s.

 

[birdy]

interesting picts

 

[M.Passit]

cool stuff.Look like some robot from sci-fi movie.

Now, the map. I have merged north/south Rhodesia and Nyasaland( I have the urge to make them the Jewish/Cossack/Eastern European homeland ) into a single Rhodesia since there's really a plan in OTL to merge the three togethor. Also added West Indies Federation and the Suez Canal Zone. Now, I'm added the Gulf States with light pink along with Egypt and Persia to show that they are under British influence. Since the Gulf States didn't have so much British system like other members, maybe they will be like Persia. Independent but firmly British ally. Will they become ass. member or not is still an open issue.

Concerning Communist. I have added the communist Manchuria and Sinkiang to the map, still, an open issue. With Korea, I'm a bit in two mind. Since I think that the occupation zone in Korea was already agreed between U.S. and Soviet when the U.S. try to get the Soviet into the war against Japan. So, North Korea could still into being. However, with a full blown civil war in China with U.S. intervention, I can see two option for North Korea.

1.They could be merge into Manchuria when the communist fall back into Manchuria and Sinkiang.

2.Or, the U.S. crush North Korea when they decide to add another confusion in the Chinese debacle by invading South Korea, so they will be merged into South Korea and the peninsular will be united at last!

Another question, what about British favorite neighbor, the Irish?

As I said before, there could be about three options for Ireland.

1.Ireland is the member of the Commonwealth.

2.They are like Persia.

3.They forge closer relation with the U.S. But when Reagan come into power with his more 'inward looking' policy, they decide to join the Commonwealth, in the fashion that like OTL U.K./E.U.

What year will Indonesia will be independent, cause I think the Dutch, with U.S. support, will be there longer than OTL?

 

[M.Passit]

And.......you know what.

 

[birdy]

Like your map M.Passit

Regarding Ireland- maybe they do what they did OTL- that is remain pretty neutral untill they joined the EC i think unless i'm mistaken, i like the idea of Ireland in the Commonwealth but they might not!

Bluenote- if your thinking of having the US back Argentina in a dispute over the Falklands, what about Northern Ireland and Gibraltar , would the US support any claim to them if there opposed to the Commonwealth-
but if they do they would need to see Britain as an enemy- Do they??

I think theres definetly gonna have to be a post on Rhodesia

 

[M.Passit]

Thanks, birdie. I myself like Ireland to be something like OTL U.K./E.U.

 

[Darkling]

British Honduras will be evacuated, I think! No need to mess about there, right?
- Mr. B.

Well it might hurt Britain’s rep if they abandon people who don't want to be let go (Belize remained under UK control until 1981 because they knew that the minute Britain left Guatemala would be over the border, in the end they only agreed to go independent if Britain would station forces there, which we did and still do).