aah, yes, i remember those guys
was poland christianized like IOTL, or are they still pagan?
Poland is indeed Christianized.
Map Thread VI
- Thread starter Ian the Admin
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Poland is indeed Christianized.
Indeed, how has Super Poland-Lithuania escaped the initial description? ITTL Poland has to at least be on par with Hapsburgia.
archaeogeek
Banned
The map and basic scenario for this is the same as my Surviving Weimar back when we had a fad about that. I slightly changed the borders, but nothing major. Main point is the location of German Großstädte, i.e. cities with over 100k inhabitants.
Im sure Kabraloth and Dr Nodelescu will again find something to scream and hunt me down about.
Interesting so...
- Prussia is unified
- Brandenburg recovers Magedburg and gains Lusace
- Saxony recovers its pre 1815 borders except for Lusace
- Hessen is unified
- Rhineland-Palatinate kind of makes sense I guess
- Upper Rhineland is Cleves-Berg-Jülich or am I absolutely wrong?
- The more obvious is unified Franken
- Oldenburg and Brunswick are somehow removed
( )- I'm curious as to why Austria is only one Land (although I guess it sort of makes sense instead of having 4 Austrian Länder given the population of german Austria)
Susano
Banned
...For a given value of "Prussia". Its, as the name says, Old Prussia, while the de facto coreland of the kingdom and the state was Brandenburg. And it surrounds a Polish exclave at the coast, one of the things I changed compared to the previous map of it...
I must admit in both points its much personal perference. Saxony-Anhalt always seemed like such a silly artifical state to me. And an united Lusatia also makes sense to me, especially given the Sorb population (even if thats less than 10% of the general population there), as does an united Leipzig-Halle metropolitan area. And I simply did not know what else to do with the Prussian territories south of Anhalt, heh. Its not entirely the pre-1815 borders, though.
Ah, but of course Hesse is
It also has gained Aschaffenburg and Siegen-Wittgenstein (and different to the OTL FRG also has Rhine Hesse, but thats OTL for the Weimar period). OTOH, R-P as compared to the FRG has the Aachen region, but misses Rhine Hesse.By chance the borders are similar, but the main point is that its an own state for the Rhine-Ruhr metropolitan region. Hence why there are so many cities there it necessitated an extra detail window, heh. Consequently, Westphalia is independent.
Brunswick had to go, like Anhalt: Both were just too territorially scattered. Oldenburg wouldve been viable, but I decided that Lower Saxony makes more sense: There is a sort of Lower Saxon identity, and Oldenburg would have had too few people.- Oldenburg and Brunswick are somehow removed
Exactly that. And if you start to split it up youd have to combine Austrian territories in totally non-historical ways. Of course Lower and Upper Austria could be one state, but what about Styria, Carinthia, Salzburg? A state "Alpenland" or so would be totally silly and artifical.
Thanks for the attention in any case
i finally finished my ATL's map in the year 2032, inspired by and partly based on Code Geass. im actually still hammering out details of the ATL itself, but its really coming along quite well, i think. its kind of ASB, though. here's the key:
- teal is the Arab League. i was originally going to make this a "Saudi Empire" but changed my mind when i couldnt decide how to divide iran (yeah, im kinda working backwards with my TL), so i made it the Arab League; thats what it was gonna be analogous to, anyway. member states are Egypt, Darfur, Sudan (OTL Southern Sudan), Nubia (OTL North Sudan), Djbouti, Somalia, Yemen (reduced), Oman, Saudi Kingdom (reduced), Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Kurdistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and one last state that i cant remember the name of (its that one along the northeast coast of teh Red Sea). there's also an Ethiopian puppet state that i havent come up with much for yet.
- dark blue is Austria-Hungary. there's no Germany here (that region instead belongs to France), so Austria essentially replaces it in some respects. since there was less competition in the Scramble for Africa, Austria was able to participate and claim some territory (IOTL, they only ever colonized the Andaman Islands in Asia)
- green is Aztlan, aka the Aztec Empire. Cortez failed to destroy the Aztecs and they staged a resistance for a few hundred years (this is one of the ways it gets kinda ASB) and joined forces with the USNA during teh First Spanish-American War in the 1840s and became the only independent monarchy in the Americas
- turquoise is the Balkan Trade Union. these countries are still independent, but have formed a mutually beneficial trade union with one another (thats why the borders are black and not gray) that consists of the Hellenic Republic, Macedonia, Thrace, Marmara (a militarized zone), Bulgaria, Wallachia, Serbia, Albania, and Bosnia. this is actually the closest thing to a communist state ITTL, though not all members of the BTU are socialist; Wallachia is still a capitalist principality, for instance
- pale red is the Britannian Empire. like in Code Geass, Britannia is very powerful and even regarded as a superpower state, but does not hold such extreme policies of segregation and discrimination. theyre the only country to hold territory on every single continent, including Antarctica.
- red is the Chinese Federation. i havent devised much for it yet, but the idea is that the Qing dynasty adopts an imperialist agenda, coupled with a lack of european colonization in the area (or pre-empting it) and thus annexing much of eastern Asia. they were stopped by Iran in the west, Japan in the east, and the Dutch in the south to a very limited extent.
- blue is the French Empire. theyre history pretty much goes as it did IOTL until Napoleon's time, where he becomes much more successful and wins at Waterloo, but fails to invade Britain before dying (officially attributed to stomach cancer as IOTL, but its rumored he may have been poisoned). his successor arranges an armistice because of how expensive that war was, but eventually annexed Germany and the Low Countries. France is a little friendlier to the US and isnt as mocked because there were no World Wars
- gray-brown is the Italian Republic. this is a pro-French state that i havent come up with much for yet.
- green is teh Japanese Empire. this is mostly a maritime power, but they do control Korea and Manchukuo
- light blue is the Portuguese Empire. its actually a united kingdom of its major regions, but w/e. i honestly havent come up with much for portugal yet.
- orange is teh Russian Federation. the Bolshevik revolution was a failure, so the Romanovs stayed in power for a while longer. however, there was another civil war in which the Romanovs werent killed, but merely deposed; Russia is a constitutional monarchy here. theyre friendly with the Balkan states and established a pro-Russian Turkish puppet state following a war in the 1910s. even though its not an empire anymore, it retains much of its former imperial territory, such as Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
- purple is teh Spanish Empire. this used to be practically a superpower state, but fell from prominence following the Second Spanish-American War at the turn of the 20th century, essentially being replaced by the United States
- dark teal is teh Kingdom of Sweden. like some of the otehrs, i havent come up with much for Sweden yet, but they control Finland and the Kola Peninsula
- yellow is the United States of North America. they acquired Canada as a result of the War of 1812 and much of the rest of their territory through the annexation of conquered territory in the first two Spanish-American Wars. they have a total of 65 states.
- white shows countries that are officially independent. these include the Commonwealth of the Bahamas (granted independence willingly), Liberia, Ethiopia (actually an Arab puppet state), Turkey (a Russian puppet state), Iran (which has somehow maintained independence), Denmark-Norway (a Britannian protectorate), the Boer Confederation and Java Republic (Dutch breakaway states formed after France annexed the Low Countries), and Switzerland
- colonialism, imperialism, and aristocracy persist through to the present day; only a few countries have no aristocracy whatsoever (among them are the US, Liberia, Swizerland, and perhaps the Java and Boer republics)
- nuclear weapons are never developed (ASB; there's less radioactive material to use, pretty much)
- the world wars never happened; no alliance system as we know it when Ferdinand was killed, so that war is only between Austria (Germany is non-existant) and some of the Balkan states, later growing to involve the Ottoman Empire and then Russia. this sparks the creation of a League of Nations by Russia and Britannia, but Hitler never comes to power, so no WWII.
- communism as we know it never rose to power: the Bolsheviks lost, so no Soviet Union, no communist China, no Cold War, no Korean and Vietnam Wars, and no missile crisis
The map and basic scenario for this is the same as my Surviving Weimar back when we had a fad about that. I slightly changed the borders, but nothing major. Main point is the location of German Großstädte, i.e. cities with over 100k inhabitants.
Im sure Kabraloth and Dr Nodelescu will again find something to scream and hunt me down about.
Eh, too tired right now to scream and hunt you down, but good god, what the hell is up with the French/Belgian/Luxenburgian frontier?
Susano
Banned
We already had that last time that map came up, didnt we? Arlon and some other German/Letzebergish speaking districts were incorporated into the United Grand-Duchy as well. As said, that was already so last map, the focus here are the cities
...Hey, arent you from Neuwied, in fact?
Susano
Banned
That was a long time ago.
Why, yes I am. Neuwied, the navel of the world. The only city where the Wied flows into the Rhine.
See, its listed as Großstadt here, abovbe 100k inhabitangts
Fear the Koblenz-Neuwied Metropolitan region Yet another lil' map from the alternate history travel guides...just North America, couldn't find enough detail on the rest of the world.
The Protestant Reformation of OTL never occurred, although a number of north European states eventually established “national Catholic” Churches independent of the Pope, and the horrors of the 30 years war were avoided. A more powerful Papacy made efforts to carrry out its own colonial project in the Americas: a long-term result of this was that for quite some time the State of Virginia –the leading state in the Confederationof Virginia – was run by nuns (more precisely, a powerful and rich Catholic Order led by a fabulously rich and very determined noblewoman.)
Eventually, as a result of conflicts between the Order in Virginia and the Papacy, and the conflict between Pope and several European monarchies, Virginia became an independent state, following a "Marian" version of Catholicism. Outside of Virginia only in Scotland and the Netherlands (and their third-world former colonies) do truly non-Catholic versions of Protestantism predominate, although vigorous and influential minorities follow variant versions of Christianity in National-Catholic England, Scandinavia, and the United States. (Not that the Catholic Church, which is dominated by various powerful monastic orders, and has a large and wealthy territorial base in the Americas, is very much like the Catholic church OTL). Aestheticism and spiritual perfection are bigger concerns in this rather religious-minded world, and nearly 10 percent of Virginians lead (supposedly, anyway) celibate lives.
Nowadays, the Virginia Confederation extends to the Mississippi and includes includes a number of semi-autonomous Native American states and territories. To the south are the Italian-speaking Papal Territories, ruled as a (nowadays) constitutional monarchy by the Pope (who was forced to leave Italy in a hurry as a result of a rather anti-clerical Italian War of Unification). To the North is the loosely federalized United States, a union of Dutch, Swedish, French and British colonies (and the Iroquois) including OTLs Maratime provinces: Quebec and Ontario are an independent French-speaking state. West of the Mississippi, American settlers and adventurers filibustered chunks of the Spanish west, carving out states in California and OTL Texas, while the British nabbed Oregon. OTL’s far north Plains and the Canadian Plains provinces are part of a large Metis/Indian/mixed-blood state, which uses French as a common language and served as a refuge for displaced Plains Indians. The Hudson’s Bay Company territories of OTL became the British Arctic Territories.
Today all of North America is a free-trade zone, although the Papacy remains less integrated with the rest of the continent. As a result of the vagaries of migration, Swedes played a major part in the taking of California, so the state is today essentially trilingual in Spanish, English and Swedish. Since the Popes disapproved of plantation slavery, and the Virginians abolished slavery as early as the 17th century, that particular curse never became a major part of American history north of the Caribbean – on the down side, this has also meant far fewer African-Americans north of the Caribbean, since slaves were not being imported. After the losses of California and Texas/Cadowa (named after some different tribes ATL) the Empire of Mexico made a major effort to settle and develop El Norte - alas, with the sad result that the Republican revolutionaries in the area had the manpower (with some Californian help) to carve off a state in the north when the Revolution was crushed in Mexico city.
As a result of the influence of Marian philosophy emanating from Virginia (and its long period of rule by a female hierarchy), legal equality for women arrived earlier than OTL, with most western nations granting women the vote by the late 19th century. Today even the Catholic Church ordains female priests, although the male and female roles within the Church remain somewhat distinct.
British history is rather different, with the Parliamentary-Royal showdown taking place in the 18th rather than the 17th century, (the American colonies seceded rather peacefully with the British were busy at home) and is nowadays a parliamentary republic. The current British government ascribes to idea rather similar to OTL’s Technocracy, and is very close to a Communist state in the degree to which government intervention in the economy for the sake of growth is tolerated: giant flying wings and huge tidal power stations and automated factories and massive public works are a plenty. The French had their own revolution, but rather later than OTL (during which Arcadia joined the United States and Canada went its own way), and ended up a constitutional monarchy.
Technology is roughly on a 1960s level, but the Americas lack a unified highway system, and have not developed a “car culture” to the extent of OTL: car rentals are expensive, gas stations scattered, and most people use public transportation.
Bruce
The Protestant Reformation of OTL never occurred, although a number of north European states eventually established “national Catholic” Churches independent of the Pope, and the horrors of the 30 years war were avoided. A more powerful Papacy made efforts to carrry out its own colonial project in the Americas: a long-term result of this was that for quite some time the State of Virginia –the leading state in the Confederationof Virginia – was run by nuns (more precisely, a powerful and rich Catholic Order led by a fabulously rich and very determined noblewoman.)
Eventually, as a result of conflicts between the Order in Virginia and the Papacy, and the conflict between Pope and several European monarchies, Virginia became an independent state, following a "Marian" version of Catholicism. Outside of Virginia only in Scotland and the Netherlands (and their third-world former colonies) do truly non-Catholic versions of Protestantism predominate, although vigorous and influential minorities follow variant versions of Christianity in National-Catholic England, Scandinavia, and the United States. (Not that the Catholic Church, which is dominated by various powerful monastic orders, and has a large and wealthy territorial base in the Americas, is very much like the Catholic church OTL). Aestheticism and spiritual perfection are bigger concerns in this rather religious-minded world, and nearly 10 percent of Virginians lead (supposedly, anyway) celibate lives.
Nowadays, the Virginia Confederation extends to the Mississippi and includes includes a number of semi-autonomous Native American states and territories. To the south are the Italian-speaking Papal Territories, ruled as a (nowadays) constitutional monarchy by the Pope (who was forced to leave Italy in a hurry as a result of a rather anti-clerical Italian War of Unification). To the North is the loosely federalized United States, a union of Dutch, Swedish, French and British colonies (and the Iroquois) including OTLs Maratime provinces: Quebec and Ontario are an independent French-speaking state. West of the Mississippi, American settlers and adventurers filibustered chunks of the Spanish west, carving out states in California and OTL Texas, while the British nabbed Oregon. OTL’s far north Plains and the Canadian Plains provinces are part of a large Metis/Indian/mixed-blood state, which uses French as a common language and served as a refuge for displaced Plains Indians. The Hudson’s Bay Company territories of OTL became the British Arctic Territories.
Today all of North America is a free-trade zone, although the Papacy remains less integrated with the rest of the continent. As a result of the vagaries of migration, Swedes played a major part in the taking of California, so the state is today essentially trilingual in Spanish, English and Swedish. Since the Popes disapproved of plantation slavery, and the Virginians abolished slavery as early as the 17th century, that particular curse never became a major part of American history north of the Caribbean – on the down side, this has also meant far fewer African-Americans north of the Caribbean, since slaves were not being imported. After the losses of California and Texas/Cadowa (named after some different tribes ATL) the Empire of Mexico made a major effort to settle and develop El Norte - alas, with the sad result that the Republican revolutionaries in the area had the manpower (with some Californian help) to carve off a state in the north when the Revolution was crushed in Mexico city.
As a result of the influence of Marian philosophy emanating from Virginia (and its long period of rule by a female hierarchy), legal equality for women arrived earlier than OTL, with most western nations granting women the vote by the late 19th century. Today even the Catholic Church ordains female priests, although the male and female roles within the Church remain somewhat distinct.
British history is rather different, with the Parliamentary-Royal showdown taking place in the 18th rather than the 17th century, (the American colonies seceded rather peacefully with the British were busy at home) and is nowadays a parliamentary republic. The current British government ascribes to idea rather similar to OTL’s Technocracy, and is very close to a Communist state in the degree to which government intervention in the economy for the sake of growth is tolerated: giant flying wings and huge tidal power stations and automated factories and massive public works are a plenty. The French had their own revolution, but rather later than OTL (during which Arcadia joined the United States and Canada went its own way), and ended up a constitutional monarchy.
Technology is roughly on a 1960s level, but the Americas lack a unified highway system, and have not developed a “car culture” to the extent of OTL: car rentals are expensive, gas stations scattered, and most people use public transportation.
Bruce
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im still hammering out the details, but the general idea is that the region is occupied by french soldiers for a very long period of time, perhaps even a hundred years or so, and is eventually annexed by them. it starts during the napoleonic period and may involve some help from french allies, maybe even the united states. like i said, im still sorting it all out.
Oh yeah! This was just a lazy and half-ass version I modded myself{the lines only took like 5 minutes, maybe.}
Code Geass, huh? Interesting.
That was a long time ago.
Why, yes I am. Neuwied, the navel of the world. The only city where the Wied flows into the Rhine.
LMAO, good one.
yup
one of my favorite anime, arguably one of the best out there, AND its what got me into alternate history in teh first placeSusano, I hate you, but that's nothing new.
When is Germany exactly supposed to get a "German corridor" through the Pommerelles? Would there still be enough Germans to back this? Weren't cities like Bromberg and Thorn almost magically emptied from most of its Germans between c. 1919/20 and 1930? Or have I read the wrong Polish propaganda posters?
Did you really need to bring Coburg back into the amalgated Thuringian clusterfuck? The rest is known to me, I've ranted about it once, so let it be enough.
But did you really need to bubble up the cities? Central Germany is fine, they were spared of the German division. But the rest? I mean, come on, Hamburg and Vienna above 3 million? I can hardly see Hamburg over 2 million, they had it too good IOTL to really dwarf against TTL. Vienna may get above the 2 million, but even at an all-time high I'd rather bet it at about 2.5 million inhabitants.
Oh, and how can Frankfurt ever exceed the million barrier without an amalgation binge that would naturally have swallowed Hanau? Stuttgart and Nürnberg also don't seem to be real million-candidates, same goes for Breslau. Rhine-Ruhr cities are way to big. And such a half-hearted Ruhrstadt would never exist, let alone grow so much. Don't get me started on your million city Hinderburg O.S., ouch! Both the Ruhr and Upper Silesia don't suit for real million cities. A bunch of half-millions, yes, but not this stuff.
Then there's the issue with your Regierungsbezirke. It's alright any time where Prussian, Bavarian or Austrian lands used to be. But for god's sake, not in Württemberg or Baden! Only the reorganization of these lands after WW2 (what TTL lacks) prompted the creation of these Regierungs-/ Landesbezirke. Same goes for your weird kind of Saxony. Saxony's OTL heritage of Regierungsbezirke stems from the GDR Bezirke, ditto Saxony-Anhalt. All non-existent ITTL.
When is Germany exactly supposed to get a "German corridor" through the Pommerelles? Would there still be enough Germans to back this? Weren't cities like Bromberg and Thorn almost magically emptied from most of its Germans between c. 1919/20 and 1930? Or have I read the wrong Polish propaganda posters?
Did you really need to bring Coburg back into the amalgated Thuringian clusterfuck? The rest is known to me, I've ranted about it once, so let it be enough.
But did you really need to bubble up the cities? Central Germany is fine, they were spared of the German division. But the rest? I mean, come on, Hamburg and Vienna above 3 million? I can hardly see Hamburg over 2 million, they had it too good IOTL to really dwarf against TTL. Vienna may get above the 2 million, but even at an all-time high I'd rather bet it at about 2.5 million inhabitants.
Oh, and how can Frankfurt ever exceed the million barrier without an amalgation binge that would naturally have swallowed Hanau? Stuttgart and Nürnberg also don't seem to be real million-candidates, same goes for Breslau. Rhine-Ruhr cities are way to big. And such a half-hearted Ruhrstadt would never exist, let alone grow so much. Don't get me started on your million city Hinderburg O.S., ouch! Both the Ruhr and Upper Silesia don't suit for real million cities. A bunch of half-millions, yes, but not this stuff.
Then there's the issue with your Regierungsbezirke. It's alright any time where Prussian, Bavarian or Austrian lands used to be. But for god's sake, not in Württemberg or Baden! Only the reorganization of these lands after WW2 (what TTL lacks) prompted the creation of these Regierungs-/ Landesbezirke. Same goes for your weird kind of Saxony. Saxony's OTL heritage of Regierungsbezirke stems from the GDR Bezirke, ditto Saxony-Anhalt. All non-existent ITTL.
Susano
Banned
True, but if those cities never become Polish in the first place then there wont be such "emptying".
Meh, Bavaria or Franconia dont deserve it
Thats half the point of the map. Hyper-urbaised Germany
I did a list on that, with population predictions... 4/5 of Germany ended up living in abive 100k cities And anyways, its no World War 2 and 2019. Hamburg still is Germanys primary harbour. So I think just about 3m is right (neither is above 4m). And Hindenburg is in fact the entire Upper Silesian industrial area minus Gleiwitz merged. Same way as Ruhrstadt is the entire Ruhr minus Dortmund and Duisburg.
Easily enough. Hell, even Otly swallowing Main-Taunus and Hochtaunus might be enough. Add some additional people settled there, and its easily enough about 1m.
Nuremberg might not be a 1m case, but Stuttgart has enough heavy industry, and Breslau is filled with Russian refugees/immigrants. Both Breslau and Hindenburg are very poor metropoleis, in fact.
And yes, Rhine-Ruhr got majorly extended. As said, teh aim was hyper-urbanisation
I dont see how it isnt suited for million cities. Hell, you could merge Essen, Bochum and Oberhausen right now and have a sufficiently coherent city way above 1m!Wha? Württemberg and Baden both has Regierungsbezirke equivalents. And Saxony had something similar enough. That the terminology eventually gets harmonised is IMO nothing too extraordianry.
I am continuing my map series entitled "A very Habsburg World".
The year is 1658 and the world has changed so much since the Pod.
Since the last map France, in an effort to stem Habsburg hegemony over Europe, warred with the Habsburg Empire only to feel the sting of defeat. Portugal is has become a vassal of Habsburg Spain along with its colonies. In South America The Incan Empire has survived as a state, though it is heavily influenced by Spain. The Incan Emperor has converted to Catholicism as have many within the empire.
In North America, England has taken Frances colony OTL Virginia. The Holy Roman Empire has expanded is colonial holdings in North America as well, purchasing Florida from Habsburg Spain and expanding in the north with the fur trade. Sweden has also expanded into the New World.
In Eastern Europe, Sweden and Poland-Lithuania engaged in the First Partitioning of Russia in 1640.
The year is 1658 and the world has changed so much since the Pod.
Since the last map France, in an effort to stem Habsburg hegemony over Europe, warred with the Habsburg Empire only to feel the sting of defeat. Portugal is has become a vassal of Habsburg Spain along with its colonies. In South America The Incan Empire has survived as a state, though it is heavily influenced by Spain. The Incan Emperor has converted to Catholicism as have many within the empire.
In North America, England has taken Frances colony OTL Virginia. The Holy Roman Empire has expanded is colonial holdings in North America as well, purchasing Florida from Habsburg Spain and expanding in the north with the fur trade. Sweden has also expanded into the New World.
In Eastern Europe, Sweden and Poland-Lithuania engaged in the First Partitioning of Russia in 1640.
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