Canada Wank (YACW)
- Thread starter Dathi THorfinnsson
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US reforms
US reforms
US reforms
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]James Monroe has been busy as a beaver. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He visits various state capitals, trying to convince them to raise more men, preferably for the regular forces, but for militia if it has to be that. In particular, what the US really, REALLY needs is well trained men who are in for the duration and won't leave after one battle. He pushes hard for a new category of militia, enlisted for the duration, trained up to standards of regular troops and available for defence anywhere. Later (TTL) historians debate whether he based the idea on the Canadian fencible / Carignan-Salières concept or whether he came up with the idea on his own. He convinces Congress to support the idea, and to give them a special name: National Guard.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He arranges for a recruiting campaign to build up the army. Recruiting posters and newspaper articles are printed, calling for heroic young men to defend the country, promising land for veterans, and pushing all the alleged atrocities of the British. Pictures of an Indian in warpaint threatening a blonde girl with the caption “This could be your sister”, etc. Slogans like “Remember the Raisin”, “Michigan is American”, “Victory shall be ours” and more are everywhere. The word “propaganda” may not have been invented yet, but Monroe found a bureaucrat with a real flair for it, and backed him enthusiastically. Slowly, the numbers of recruits start rising. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He inspects the build-up of troops, matériel and naval supplies at Oswego. He pushes hard on the building of new ships there (it may be a lousy harbour, but it's what they've got). He OK's the construction of 2 42 gun frigates, and promises to try to get Congress to approve a 74 gun ship-of-the-line – if the harbour's too small to build many ships, build them big. Since most of the ship builders who had been at Sackett's are now British prisoners, he arranges for more workers to be brought up from the east coast. He also approves work on building new drydocks and building slips, and digging more harbour space. He arranges for 3000 men to be supplied to garrison the forts around the town, and protect it from British incursions. (The frigates are essentially the same as OTL's Superior and Mohawk. These are a bit smaller than the '44 gun frigates' like the Constitution, and actually carry ~42 guns unlike the super-frigates that carried 50. The biggest difference to OTL is that they are built in Oswego rather than Sackett's, and they're laid down a lot earlier. IOTL, they're laid down in the winter, but the urgency means they move faster. OTOH, the rate of building is much slower to start with, as it's a brand new yard, with brand new people – and understaffed to start with. The USS Superior iTTL is laid down August 20, launched November 18, just in time to do some sea trials before winter. The Mohawk's keel is laid September 10 and launched December 2. The first 74, the USS Victory has her keel laid November 26. USS Seneca (sister ship to the Mohawk) laid down December 9.) Later in the winter, he arranges for yet more regiments to defend the harbour for when spring comes and the British might try an attack. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He also pushes the Pennsylvania government to rebuild the naval site at Erie (Presqu'ile). While they have to rebuild the slips and yards before any ship could be built, it is a good site for supplying from the south. So first, a regiment or two are sent north to establish a land garrison and several batteries to protect the harbour, then, once the basic amenities are in place, more men are sent so the British won't be able to retake the place. Someone has a stroke of sense, and the first round of fortifying happens inland a way, so by the time the British find out, there are already several regiments in place, making the site a rather tough nut to crack. Still, the extra step does slow things, and by the time the harbour itself is well defended, it's winter. The next step is that a ship yard should be built, then shipbuilders and supplies sent. The last time round, the shipbuilders were there, and the army wasn't yet, which is why the British were able to raid and destroy the place. If the US can regain a good toehold on Lake Erie, they may be able to take back control of the upper lakes from the British. It's a long term project, but peace talks haven't even formally started yet, and who knows how long the war will last? While he's there, he lights a fire under the Quartermaster's corps, which has been PARTICULARLY useless in Pennsylvania. Her militia had been sent forth underarmed, underfed, and underpaid. He politics with the state government until he's sure that has changed. A functioning QM department will also be necessary for the fort and harbour complex he wants built up at Erie/Presqu'ile.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]After Hampton's defeat in Vermont, Monroe also pushes the New York government to create a base at Ticonderoga on Lake Champlain, and push forward with it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He lobbies Washington to raise taxes and pass laws regularizing the promises he's already made and to provide for the future. He wants discussion opened on the possibilities of conscription. Each time a new American defeat arrives, there is a greater sense of crisis in Congress, and slowly, far too slowly for Monroe's tastes, they begin to enact legislation. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]After the sack of Sackett's Harbor, he encourages the building of roads there that Lieutenant Woolsey started, and when a month or two later, he hears rumours about their inadequacy, he goes and inspects and sees the bogged down wagons. He then goes back to his headquarters and starts thinking, hard. He fires off a note Wilkinson and Lewis, asking if they're SURE the roads in Ohio are good enough, and gets back the answer; “They're fine”. He is very doubtful, but short of calling off the whole offensive, what can he do? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He considers building canals – but realizes that would just take too long. (Two companies to start building canals, one linking Albany to Lake Ontario and points west, the other north to Lake Champlain had actually been incorporated as early as 1792, but little work had actually been done.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He consults with a road building engineer about what's required for a true all-weather road. The engineer points out that[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He consults with a road building engineer about what's required for a true all-weather road. The engineer points out that, strictly speaking, the US has NO all weather roads in the sense that Monroe is asking for – even the turnpikes on the east coast are suffering during rains with all the extra freight traffic caused the British naval blockade. He says up until 'recently' the only true all-weather roads were the Roman roads, but a Frenchman whose name he can't quite remember has come up with a system as good, but cheaper – cheaper than a Roman road, still incredibly expensive. Monroe is interested, and tells the man to go look into it. He comes back with the name Pierre-Marie-Jérôme Trésaguet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Marie-Jérôme_Trésaguet), and Monroe has him build an experimental [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the Trésaguet system being used for the Cumberland Road is really the only all-weather method available that's even remotely affordable. Monroe is sad to hear that, as he knows the Cumberland road is only moving forward at 10 miles a year, and costs $6000 or more a mile, which is insupportable for the hundreds of miles he wants to build. Still he has a couple of miles of a road section built to that standard on the main portage [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]in the water connexion between Albany and Oswego. The engineer also gives some tips for the longer roads Monroe wants, but doesn't hold any hope that any road that is even remotely affordable or that could be built in the time needed could handle the traffic of a major army over hundreds of miles. Any road is better than none, of course, and some simple draining, grading and placing of culverts in the worst places can significantly improve the overall capacity, so some of that work is put in place. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He tries to get earlier reinforcements for Hampton in Vermont, but, being busy with other matters, asks Armstrong, the Secretary of War to make those arrangements. Armstrong assures Monroe that 'it's being taken care of', and basically puts it on the back burner (Armstrong and Monroe despised each other, and Armstrong rather thought Monroe alarmist here. He certainly intended to get around to it, but he tries getting the troops first from New England, without any luck, then elsewhere, but by the time he has some lined up and marching north, it's too late.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Monroe visits Niagara and talks to Duncan MacArthur the commander there, and to prominent local citizens. While he realizes that this is a very important area, the lack of any kind of water transport for supplying troops is a real problem. So any forces there would have to be supported by the local civilian population which is about 17k. He guesses that at most 2k troops could reliably be supported there, which is hardly enough to start any offensives. It is enough, however, to hope to defend the area. It looks like the best way to supply this frontier is by road from the headwaters of the Allegheny, so he orders a start on cutting one. Even when it's completed, Pittsburgh is already trying to supply the Ohio frontier with goods and equipment, plus rebuilding the base at Erie, so it will add to strains there, too. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]MacArthur asks if he should cease fire exercises with his troops since the supply is so bad. Monroe says, no, in fact, he should encourage all the civilian males with guns to join in. He may need to worry about firing cannon, but ammunition supply for muskets should be just fine – a ton of food wouldn't feed his forces for a day but a ton of ammunition should provide multiple loads for every gun in the area! “Don't worry about training, General, we will get you the powder and lead if we have to bring it in on horseback!” After Monroe leaves, MacArthur does the math and figures that Monroe was right in principle, but a little optimistic. Still, by careful prioritizing, paying small boys for every spent ball found on the training fields, melting down spoons, etc., he manages to keep not only his men but the civilians in reasonable training. Monroe is as good as his word, and occasional loads of powder and ball make their way to Niagara. Initially it does come by horse and mule, and is very limited, but as the road to the Allegheny progresses, more and more of the trip can be made with wagons, which helps.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Congress, faced with disaster, argues long and hard about how to head it off. Many want to censure Monroe for making promises that he had no right to make, and for his very expensive war preparations. He and his supporters point out that going to war on the cheap had been tried – and look at the results. A majority comes to realize that Monroe's plan is the only way that even gives a CHANCE of victory. The next question is, how to pay for it? The government realizes that regular loans just aren't going to be available in the amounts required, and that it will have to raise internal taxes, which a year ago would have been political suicide. Now it causes a huge uproar, but less than just giving up would.[/FONT]
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Dathi
Sounds like things are going to get very bloody and messy. If the Americans get their act together then they can potentially do a lot of damage. Although they need to make significant progress before Boney falls and Britain can really apply pressure. Once that happens Britain can draw the blockage a lot tighter and also start threatening landings. That in turn makes things a hell of a lot more difficult for the US and will drain off resources that would be needed for an attack on Canada and the north.
Could see a drastically different US compared to OTL internally. If their actually going to have a far stronger government and financial system, even with the debts that will come from this conflict, it will potentially make for a much more powerful US. Not to mention that if they get a stronger military early on, while this will have an economic burden it could make them markedly more formidable in a future conflict. However might also slow development elsewhere and reduce immigration, although other than from Britain this is probably pretty irrelevant OTL for quite a while.
Steve
Sounds like things are going to get very bloody and messy. If the Americans get their act together then they can potentially do a lot of damage. Although they need to make significant progress before Boney falls and Britain can really apply pressure. Once that happens Britain can draw the blockage a lot tighter and also start threatening landings. That in turn makes things a hell of a lot more difficult for the US and will drain off resources that would be needed for an attack on Canada and the north.
Could see a drastically different US compared to OTL internally. If their actually going to have a far stronger government and financial system, even with the debts that will come from this conflict, it will potentially make for a much more powerful US. Not to mention that if they get a stronger military early on, while this will have an economic burden it could make them markedly more formidable in a future conflict. However might also slow development elsewhere and reduce immigration, although other than from Britain this is probably pretty irrelevant OTL for quite a while.
Steve
Trying to slow things down a bit, Dalthi? I thought this was going to be a Wank though. Are you trying to make it a semi-plausible wank? Just curious otherwise I'm really enjoying this timeline.
Oh sorry, I then look forward to seeing how plausible this can be. I just had high hopes for Canada (my apologies I'm a bit of a patriot, and seeing the U.S. take over Canada in so many timelines on this board can be a bit depressing at times).
Never reform
Yeah. That is why your health "system" does'nt work.
A very interesting timeline. Since I started reading the board, I have been amazed at the apparently prevalent assumption that Canadians really want to be U.S. citizens. Guys, wake up and smell the coffee. If it has'nt happened after at least two invasions and over a century of peaceful co-existence, have you considered there might be a reason!
Yeah. That is why your health "system" does'nt work.
A very interesting timeline. Since I started reading the board, I have been amazed at the apparently prevalent assumption that Canadians really want to be U.S. citizens. Guys, wake up and smell the coffee. If it has'nt happened after at least two invasions and over a century of peaceful co-existence, have you considered there might be a reason!
Ya, I'm trying to have the TL be as reasonable as possible. Sure, the Brits are doing well, but I hope that this is all a reasonable consequence of there being more settlers, with more skills, and who are anti-republicans. All of which follows (I hope) from the PoD. I'm a believer in the 'One big lie' of Science Fiction writing - you're allowed one initial premise, however implausible, but everything else has to follow consistently from that.
Actually, giving the US some hope of future victories means they aren't as accommodating now...
Thanks for the comments, folks, by the way.
Illinois territory, summer/fall 1813
Illinois territory
Illinois territory
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]All summer, Black Hawk and his followers (including some Ojibwa from the immediate Great Lakes region) sweep through southern Illinois, burning farms, scaring off settlers, and testing the small forts that Edwards built across southern Illinois. One or two are caught napping, and Indian forces take them, but the others hold out. The forts that are taken are just burnt and the cannon are 'disappeared' (e.g. dumping them in a lake or bog), as it would be a heck of an effort to haul them anywhere the British could use them. The forts that hold out feel under constant siege, because while the Indians are rarely around in force in any area, the defenders never know when the are or aren't, and all it takes is one Indian to ruin your day (permanently). So collecting firewood, for instance, becomes a scary proposition, and supplies of food and ammunition become scarce – some of the resupply trains are attacked by the roving Indians, and some never happen because carters won't undertake the risk. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Outside of 'the American bottom', the Mississippi valley south of St. Louis, the American population density is just not high enough to defend against Indian raids, so the isolated farms and small settlements are abandoned as people flee to St. Louis, the bottom, or Kentucky.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Duncan Darroch, a relatively recently arrived general is sent out to handle the Illinois front (at 36, he's also rather younger and fitter than some of the other generals available.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Early June, Fort Prevost at Peoria is built. Some time in July Ft. Madison (in OTL Iowa) is taken, but largely abandoned – there aren't enough British to hold it in the face of a determined American attack, and it will soon be irrelevant as a fort (they hope). [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]At the end of June, a couple of newly arrived British regiments settle in at the Maumee forts in Ohio, letting two regiments from there, who have grown used to defending forts and working with the natives, be sent off to Chicago, then Fort Prevost. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Also, in early August, the British start a fort, called Fort Gourock, near OTL's Valley City, IL (near where Interstate 72 crosses the Illinois River). The location is carefully calculated. It is close enough to the American population centres near St. Louis, Missouri that the Americans can't ignore it, but it's far enough away that 1) the Americans shouldn't be able to take it while it is being built, and 2) the logistics of ~100 miles upstream mean the US forces will have to work for it when they do come. The logistics for the British aren't too bad at all, because they just have to send stuff DOWN river from Peoria (and from near Chicago). The newly arrived regiments are sent to hold the new fort. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And meanwhile, food stores and ammunition and trade goods come pouring in, some redistributed to Prairie du Chien and Saukenuk, awaiting the winter offensives, and the fur trade Indian influx expected.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ninian Edwards, the governor of Illinois, screams for help from Kentucky, and starts building up the fortifications (e.g. Fort Edwards) along the Mississippi[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif] (from approximately St. Louis south)[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT]
Winfield Scott, Niagara and Winfield Scott, Niagara
Winfield Scott, Niagara and Winfield Scott, Niagara
Winfield Scott, Niagara and Winfield Scott, Niagara
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Winfield Scott, always wanting to be where the action is, begs a chance to join Hampton's forces in Vermont. While he's just as glad to have missed York (where everyone was killed or captured), he's annoyed that the Niagara campaign in the fall was over before his artillery command had arrived. He's sure that he and they could have made a difference (he's right – they did iOTL). When Hampton was defeated, Scott was with the added troops on their way to reinforce Hampton that Armstrong had finally arranged to have sent north. Those troops have to turn around and head back, as Vermont is clear she doesn't want any 'provocation' – that she is safer WITHOUT US troops. Well you can imagine how that goes over with the US Army and with the government![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]While marching back, Scott gives some thought to the future. He decides that he wants to join the Ohio campaign that is obviously the next major effort, and asks General Chandler for a transfer to Ohio. Chandler wonders where he got that information, as it is top secret, and takes a while to be convinced that Scott figured it out on his own. Anyway, being annoyed at looking like a fool accusing Scott of leaks, and wanting to keep a talented man like Scott in his own territory, Chandler refuses the transfer. He does ask Scott where, in New York, he'd like serve. Scott replies “Niagara”. Chandler is quite surprised, because there aren't going to be any offensives out of Niagara, and Oswego (with the build-up, and the attempt to rebuild Sackett's) are where masses of NY troops are going to go. That's the posting an ambitious man (ambitious in terms of rank) would probably pick. Niagara is going to be something of a backwater. Scott has it figured out, though: Oswego is going to be too tough a nut for the British to attack with any force they can soon come up with. And if they did, one Colonel among dozens might find it hard to find real action. Whereas, if there's any action at Niagara, he'll be pretty much guaranteed to be in it. By the time he makes it to Niagara, it is September. MacArthur (the General in charge) welcomes Scott and makes good use of his training abilities, working with not only the army, but the citizen informal militia (as Monroe had suggested). [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]One of the reasons that MacArthur is so happy to see Scott is to prevent another disaster like the Black Rock raid, which happened before either had arrived.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]That Black Rock raid happened at the end of April. General John Vincent, in charge on the British side of the Niagara frontier, felt jealous of the successes being piled up by some of the other generals, Brock and Procter, in particular. So he pulled together a smallish force, about 100 regulars, 200 French militia who'll have to go back to their farms soon, 200 Indians and what men he can find that can sail a sloop, and sends them across the river to Black Rock. There the US has been building / converting 5 boats/ships for military use. Roulette's raid at the beginning of the winter destroyed one and damaged another, but the Americans have fixed the one and built a replacement, so there's still 5 there. While the ships are currently useless under the guns of Fort Erie (on the Canadian side), all it would take would be a momentary distraction and they could escape – making the odds on Lake Erie much fairer. Moreover, the British really need any extra shipping they can get. All told, Vincent decides that taking those ships is a really good idea (true) and that now is the time (possibly not so true). [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Vincent's forces cross the river under cover of darkness, and take the Black Rock yard with some fighting. The Americans are taken by surprise enough that they don't manage to destroy any of the five ships before the British forces take them. The shiphandlers, some of the regulars and a few of the militia, pull out with the 5 ships (together with whatever naval stores they can load up). This is the signal for the remaining forces to fire the yard and any remaining stores, and then to get into their own boats (the ones they came across on) and retreat. Unfortunately for everybody involved, things don't work that way. As the militia are smashing through supplies, and getting ready to set them on fire, they find a couple of barrels of whiskey. Instead of dumping that on the other supplies and using it as a fire accelerant, they take it out and start drinking. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Meantime, the local settlers, drawn by the noise, draggle in and take pot shots at the militia. The militia and the Indians fight back, and forget about retreating in their boats. The American men haven't organized, and are easy prey, but the militia has been shot at, and the Indians didn't get any of the booze, so they set off toward Buffalo to take revenge. Every farm and village they pass, they loot and rape and burn. In particular, they drink all the booze they run across, both Indian and white. Several of the militia decide that scalping these 'maudits cochons républicains' is just what they deserve, and join in the 'fun' with the Indians. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]General Boyd is with his forces at Fort Niagara, and had half of them up all night for some minor disciplinary infraction, so when word arrives at about dawn, half his men are exhausted and they have to make a forced march to Buffalo to rescue the civilians. Meanwhile, back at Buffalo, some of the surviving victims of rape and violence have managed to escape and spread their stories to the accumulating group of armed men (well, women, too, especially after those stories get about). By now, they've figured that going up against the marauding force in 5's and 10's is just suicide, and they set up an ambush. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The British marauders, bedecked with scalps they've taken, and swigging from bottles of booze straggle up to the ambush site, and having been lulled by the easy prey so far, and by the great quantities of alcohol consumed, walk right into the trap. It's a massacre. Hundreds of enraged Buffalonians attack the 200+ marauders (they lost some to unconsciousness, etc.) and utterly defeat them. The marauders try to surrender, but the defenders will have none of that. Some try to flee, but they are run down and caught, not a single one manages to escape. Of the marauders' wounded and the captured, none survive until noon. Some are hacked to pieces, some hung from the nearest tree, and some are given to the rape victims to deal with. These may be the ones who survive longest – but they wish they hadn't.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]By the time the Army arrives, it's all over. Boyd is absolutely furious at the atrocities the civilians perpetrated. The civilians are absolutely furious with the lack of army support – both defensive and moral. Boyd orders the army to arrest the civilians – and they refuse. Morale and relations among the officers, soldiers and civilians plummet to unheard of lows. Thus, when Boyd is later called away to handle one wing of the fall Ohio offensivel, there is great rejoicing.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But it does mean that MacArthur has his work cut out for him rebuilding the military effectiveness of his force. And it means that he is doubly glad to get someone of Scott's calibre.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Boyd, in the aftermath, sends reports on the British atrocities to his superiors, and they make the newspaper headlines. He also sends a very stiffly worded note across to Vincent on the Canadian side, and to Prevost, demanding an apology and some sort of satisfaction. Vincent initially denies the whole thing, and reports to Prevost and Brock that the Americans are fabricating horror stories. Since only a very few stragglers make it back, and those are mostly ones who drank themselves unconscious before the serious atrocities started, Vincent really doesn't believe the American stories initially. On the other hand, the American civilians are BOASTING about what they did to the British troops and that gets across to Vincent, and into his letters to his superiors before the Americans can demonstrate to him that the stories are actually true. So, in the meantime, based on Vincent's reports, Prevost fires off nasty notes to Washington and London about the American behaviour, demanding apologies and satisfaction from THEM. And since Boyd didn't bother mentioning the American committed atrocities in HIS letters (he uses phrases like 'deplorable civilian indiscipline', not 'skinning a man alive after having smashed all his limbs'), Washington denies American misbehaviour. By the time the full facts become known to both sides, relations and trust between the British and American government have dropped to new lows. And the newspapers on both sides carry huge headlines of the initially reported atrocities of the other side, and only retract the accusations (if they even bother), in small type on an inside page and some time later. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Boyd claims it was hardly his fault, as he couldn't possibly be in two places at once, and it was just unfortunate that all his troops were at the other end of the river. Moreover, the civilian atrocities, well they were civilians, that's not his problem. Monroe and Armstrong are very unhappy with that response, but there really aren't grounds to court-martial him or anything, so they just grumble.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Similarly, Vincent can claim that he gave specific instructions that were disobeyed (which is true), and with the resources at hand, didn't really have the body of regulars to spare that could have enforced the retreat. (Probably also true – but that could be a reason to doubt that this was quite the right time to do the raid.) And he points out that he got the vessels, a) removing them from potential American use, and b) freeing them for British use. That is clearly true, and so Vincent, too, gets off with no more than a firm talking to.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Each side notes that the other's General involved got only a wrist-slap, which gets reported loudly in yet more headlines.[/FONT]
Oops. There's now a retcon on the "US Reforms" post.
I looked up highway building in the era, didn't find anything. Found the first Macadam road was post war. Thought that meant road building was more primitive than it was. Oops.
Found the truth while trying to figure out the state of the US Treasury (!!). Sheesh! Turns out Gallatin was a great fan of internal improvements, so he'd be supporting Monroe in this 100%. In fact, Monroe's getting his face rubbed into the facts on the ground mean it's he who switches to Gallatin's point of view, and adds his weight to Gallatin's existing arguments. More to come on finances, later.
I looked up highway building in the era, didn't find anything. Found the first Macadam road was post war. Thought that meant road building was more primitive than it was. Oops.
Found the truth while trying to figure out the state of the US Treasury (!!). Sheesh! Turns out Gallatin was a great fan of internal improvements, so he'd be supporting Monroe in this 100%. In fact, Monroe's getting his face rubbed into the facts on the ground mean it's he who switches to Gallatin's point of view, and adds his weight to Gallatin's existing arguments. More to come on finances, later.
Dathi
Well the Black Rock fiasco should harden feeling on both sides. Coupled with Monroe's work and Congress agreeing to it [and the relatively huge expenditure involved] means that the US will continue with the war and seek to continue attacking, at least for the time being. In turn, once Napoleon is finally out of the way and Britain looks more seriously at resolving matters in N America this means that peace is not going to be likely as the two sides aims and expectations will be too far apart. As a result a proportion of British opinion will be pissed off in turn that the Americans are determined to continue the war. This could go on a while yet.
Steve
Well the Black Rock fiasco should harden feeling on both sides. Coupled with Monroe's work and Congress agreeing to it [and the relatively huge expenditure involved] means that the US will continue with the war and seek to continue attacking, at least for the time being. In turn, once Napoleon is finally out of the way and Britain looks more seriously at resolving matters in N America this means that peace is not going to be likely as the two sides aims and expectations will be too far apart. As a result a proportion of British opinion will be pissed off in turn that the Americans are determined to continue the war. This could go on a while yet.
Steve
Minor nitpick from way back on pages 2 and 3:
Joseph Brant's long dead. It's his son John that's active during this period. Joseph dies after the PoD, but he'd be in his 70's even if he was still alive.
Joseph Brant's long dead. It's his son John that's active during this period. Joseph dies after the PoD, but he'd be in his 70's even if he was still alive.
Oops! THanks for the catch. I could have sworn he was still around. Of course, as you say, he'd be very old. OK, so maybe I just wasn't thinking.
Do you happen to know whether John had the same kind of leadership among the Canadian 6 nations as his dad did? Of course, the Iroquois leadership structure doesn't really have a 'paramount chief' position, IIRC (and to the extent it does, he should be Onondaga, not Mohawk), so maybe there just any single person to fill the role. Hmmm... Do you have any good pointers for sources here? I'd like to avoid as many egregious errors as I can... (Even when that involves retconning and re-writing. Sigh!)
Edit: A quick bout of googling suggests John Norton (Teyoninhokovrawen) might be a more likely candidate than John Brant (Ahyonwaeghs)? What do you think?
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Questions from the last few posts...
Roads -
Even rough trails are going to speed up foot and horse movements but get cart sized roads built and cordoried is going to suck up ALOT of manpower quick. Especially if they want to ditch any of them.
The information on the french design for roads is new to me...nice find. However I can tell you that gravel is not cheap even today with modern equipment...either you have massive chain gangs breaking rocks or there is a local supply of cobble that will work...for a short while. Until the gravel supply is expanded nobody is building surfaced roads.
However there are many small rivers that lead towards to Great Lakes and larger rivers. Modification of the log driving techniques allows for greater boat traffic down some of these drainages through the use of control dams to raise the boats over low water and/or bypass some key hazards. This is an example of one such set up : http://www.chutescoulonge.qc.ca/trails.htm
Not cannals but the next best thing and were developed extensively on both sides of the border.
Regiments:
What size of force is a regiment here? Just finished reading about the 23 Royal Welsh Fusiliers in the ARW and they started the war with ~230 men until they expanded to about ~450 men. Also are we talking about regular line units or the much more highly valued Light and Grenadier units which tended to be more mobile?
Black Rock Raid
Rape was not a common thing especially amongst the eastern tribes in part because heritage is traced through the maternal side. However taking of captives and marrying them off within the tribe was common and a means of prestige. The interbreeding this caused led to several "white" indians and likewise several "native" frenchmen depending on the heritage and where they were raised. The effects of rum however would knock many out of the fight if served straight up..
The attrocities commited by both sides would however I belive tend to have been done mostly by the militia or americans as again this tended to run counter to native beliefs. Killing a man was prestigous but only in very rare, almost cerimonal situations would torture be used. Either you were dead, fit to be a captive and no threat, or a respected opponent who would occasionally be submitted to rituals. Some rituals (such as the burning of a couple of Jesuit priests) you might not survive but others such as running the gauntlet might allow you to show enough bravery to be adopted into the tribe. In a raid like this...
Are there observers from other nations present in this conflict? Just wondering about butterfly's from a german or russion observer's POV.
Illinois Territory
Nice work...very much like traditional warfare was for natives. Hit what you can and move on, don't get cornered. As most natives in this time period are trained in both archery and increasingly musketry these raids would be developing a much better armed force on the western frontier.
Creek War
Reading about teh Cherokee right now and apparently back in the 1700's they had signed treaty with the British governor (still learning lots about the southern tribes) and had requested official support against illegeal settlement..something that was witheld even though they had fought for the British in the French-Indian wars. What happens if a couple of boatloads of muskets and light cannon show up via Florida resupplying this force? Manpower wise they're limited but they also have the advantage of defense and short supply lines.
Keep it up....some nice twists you've thrown out and very realistic expections.
foresterab
Roads -
Even rough trails are going to speed up foot and horse movements but get cart sized roads built and cordoried is going to suck up ALOT of manpower quick. Especially if they want to ditch any of them.
The information on the french design for roads is new to me...nice find. However I can tell you that gravel is not cheap even today with modern equipment...either you have massive chain gangs breaking rocks or there is a local supply of cobble that will work...for a short while. Until the gravel supply is expanded nobody is building surfaced roads.
However there are many small rivers that lead towards to Great Lakes and larger rivers. Modification of the log driving techniques allows for greater boat traffic down some of these drainages through the use of control dams to raise the boats over low water and/or bypass some key hazards. This is an example of one such set up : http://www.chutescoulonge.qc.ca/trails.htm
Not cannals but the next best thing and were developed extensively on both sides of the border.
Regiments:
What size of force is a regiment here? Just finished reading about the 23 Royal Welsh Fusiliers in the ARW and they started the war with ~230 men until they expanded to about ~450 men. Also are we talking about regular line units or the much more highly valued Light and Grenadier units which tended to be more mobile?
Black Rock Raid
Rape was not a common thing especially amongst the eastern tribes in part because heritage is traced through the maternal side. However taking of captives and marrying them off within the tribe was common and a means of prestige. The interbreeding this caused led to several "white" indians and likewise several "native" frenchmen depending on the heritage and where they were raised. The effects of rum however would knock many out of the fight if served straight up..
The attrocities commited by both sides would however I belive tend to have been done mostly by the militia or americans as again this tended to run counter to native beliefs. Killing a man was prestigous but only in very rare, almost cerimonal situations would torture be used. Either you were dead, fit to be a captive and no threat, or a respected opponent who would occasionally be submitted to rituals. Some rituals (such as the burning of a couple of Jesuit priests) you might not survive but others such as running the gauntlet might allow you to show enough bravery to be adopted into the tribe. In a raid like this...
Are there observers from other nations present in this conflict? Just wondering about butterfly's from a german or russion observer's POV.
Illinois Territory
Nice work...very much like traditional warfare was for natives. Hit what you can and move on, don't get cornered. As most natives in this time period are trained in both archery and increasingly musketry these raids would be developing a much better armed force on the western frontier.
Creek War
Reading about teh Cherokee right now and apparently back in the 1700's they had signed treaty with the British governor (still learning lots about the southern tribes) and had requested official support against illegeal settlement..something that was witheld even though they had fought for the British in the French-Indian wars. What happens if a couple of boatloads of muskets and light cannon show up via Florida resupplying this force? Manpower wise they're limited but they also have the advantage of defense and short supply lines.
Keep it up....some nice twists you've thrown out and very realistic expections.
foresterab
No, not cheap. ~$10k / mile (for the Cumberland/National road) [the original estimate, and MAYBE the first few miles were $6k/mile], and only some 10 miles were done in each of the first couple of years of building that road. My intent was that one or two miles, partly to improve transport, partly as a foretaste of things to come happens on the worst bottleneck of the Albany/Oswego route. Most of that route is along the Hudson river, then Lake Oneida, then the Oswego river, IIRC, but there are a few rapids and falls and you have to get from one watershed to the other, so a little road improvement could go a long way in those particular places.
Base was like 7" stone, surface 2" stone, IIRC. Not exactly gravel. I believe they crushed rock, probably on site.
I have been trying to harp on the necessity of water transport for any significant carrying load.
thanks for the link
As far as I could tell, a battalion and a regiment were both units in the ~500 man range. I could be way wrong, but that's what my reading suggests to me. Not all units were fully populated when they were formed, or (especially) after a battle.
All the reading I've done suggests that the Indians of the time, when liquored up - and even just in battle rage, were pretty uncontrollable and did many things that were considered atrocities by the French, the Brits, and the Americans. Butchering prisoners seems to have been common, as was taking scalps.
I don't know about rape, but my text was deliberately vague about who was doing that. The only thing that the Indians are specifically said to have started is the scalping, which I think is reasonable. This particular group of militia is mad, hates 'damned regicide republicans', is drunk to the gills, and wasn't terribly well disciplined to start out with. If you want to consider the worst (almost all?) of the rape and burning to be done by that group, that's entirely consistent with the original post.
However, even if that's true, the Americans aren't likely making fine distinctions, here. THey're probably going to blame 'those damn Injuns' as well as 'those damned English' or 'those damned Frogs' no matter who were guiltly of what.
Your point about the Indians being the first to drop unconscious with drink is a good one, and might mean that the group that arrives at the ambush is almost all militia. I did specifically say that the militia had taken to taking scalps.
Note that the only reference to torture was (I believe) the AMERICAN civilians, taking it out on their captives. Since some of the torturers were women who had just been raped, and others their husbands, fathers and brothers, well, I'm prepared to allow as how they might have felt they had a real excuse. Not to say some of THEM didn't wake up the next morning feeling remorse.
Can't imagine why there would be? While we are starting to get some 'British' soldiers freed up for service in Canada, they have mostly come from the Caribbean and Ireland, and not from the Peninsular wars, yet. Also, there are not many foreigners in the US at this point, the great wave of immigration starts (OTL) in the 1830's and REALLY starts flowing with the potato famine.
thanks
Actually, the Cherokee at this point are mostly trying to either keep their heads down, or actually assist the white americans. I think they've seen the writing on the wall, and know that they can't win a military conflict. At the moment, it's the Red Stick faction of the Creeks that are doing the fighting here. I suppose there are a few other nations involved, but mostly the Cherokee are, if anything, on the US side.
Thanks.
I'm not well-grounded on the subject, but my own reading would agree with you on John Norton. That said, Tecumseh and John Brant are the ones whose pictures I've seen in the museums referencing native help in the war.
You might see honours like your post's knighthood thrown Brant's way.
Especially if the Brits seriously misunderstand Iroquois social structure - which they do!
The thing with Brant is that he has the family respect...first Brant I've run accross was the first British Indian agent who dealt with the Iroquois, followed by Joseph, and then John. All that being said though the speech making skills and leadership skills may lead to different leaders...a diplomat so to speak and a general where with Joseph Brant he handled both roles IIRC. You also have traders, medicine men, historians, hunters and others who take highly respected roles within the confederation as "best in role" who allow for alot of butterflys to be let loose.
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