Spanish conquest of the Pampas

[lynxpt]

The Spaniards never conquered much of the Pampas. At the time of independence, the Argentine frontier was barely south of Buenos Aires on the Salado River.
Is there a way to get the Spaniards to conquer the Pampas earlier? Could they have pushed the border to the Colorado River or the Negro River? In the 18th century, Russians and Chinese were very successful against nomads using gunpowder. I don't know why the Spaniards weren't.

 

[lynxpt]

I am reviving this thread of mine which never got any replies.
@Admiral Brown
@juanml82

 

[juanml82]

AFAIK, they didn't care. They didn't bother to develop the region. Cattle and sheep ranching was a development post independence, started by importing/smuggling more economically profitable cow and sheep races from Europe. Cows, during the colonial era, were hunted, not raised.

So prevent the Bourbonic reforms and instead get a king who wants to develop as much as his empire as possible? You start by introducing sheep ranching (meat didn't have much of a market before refrigerators), then as native raids mount, one of the viceroys will seek to push them south to protect the now productive areas.

 

[twovultures]

Maybe in a scenario where the conquest of Mexico and Peru fails? Then we have would-be conquistadors potentially settling this region instead, and as a land-rich and slave-poor colony, the Pampas would see agricultural and ranching development from the initial conquistadors that draw in more Spanish migrants, populating the area with European settlers centuries before OTL.

Alternatively, perhaps an Andean-style agricultural civilization develops in the Pampas? This makes the region easier for the Spanish to conquer, ironically, since settled peoples would be easier for them to control and there would be a political elite that they could co-opt.

 

[M79]

Have another power express interest in it during the late 17th century and force the Spanish to settle/develop the region a lot more. They need a reason to go there and potential loss to a rival is as good as any.

 

[lynxpt]

AFAIK, they didn't care. They didn't bother to develop the region. Cattle and sheep ranching was a development post independence, started by importing/smuggling more economically profitable cow and sheep races from Europe. Cows, during the colonial era, were hunted, not raised.

Still, wasn't having Natives so close to Buenos Aires dangerous?
Also, the colony of New Mexico, another colony on the fringes of the Spanish Empire, had a ranching economy.

 

[AsukaEMP]

So prevent the Bourbonic reforms and instead get a king who wants to develop as much as his empire as possible?

Didn't the Bourbon reforms included splitting Argentina from the Vice-royalty of Peru and opening up the port of Buenos Aires for direct trade with Europe? It seems like if anything you need something like the Bourbon reforms to happen much sooner so that BA stops being a peripheral settlement and can develop into an busy trade port. If a large number of ships stop by then there's going to be demand for provisions, which means salted meat, which means development of the surrounding plains.

Have another power express interest in it during the late 17th century and force the Spanish to settle/develop the region a lot more. They need a reason to go there and potential loss to a rival is as good as any.

Well if someone else becomes interested in the area those plans would be kept secret and the Spanish probably wouldn't find out about them until an invasion fleet is already in the Rio de la Plata. And with how small, isolated, and poorly defended (one small citadel and no city walls) Buenos Aires was at the time the invasion's success would be very likely and probably permanent.

 

[juanml82]

Didn't the Bourbon reforms included splitting Argentina from the Vice-royalty of Peru and opening up the port of Buenos Aires for direct trade with Europe? It seems like if anything you need something like the Bourbon reforms to happen much sooner so that BA stops being a peripheral settlement and can develop into an busy trade port. If a large number of ships stop by then there's going to be demand for provisions, which means salted meat, which means development of the surrounding plains.


Well if someone else becomes interested in the area those plans would be kept secret and the Spanish probably wouldn't find out about them until an invasion fleet is already in the Rio de la Plata. And with how small, isolated, and poorly defended (one small citadel and no city walls) Buenos Aires was at the time the invasion's success would be very likely and probably permanent.

But trade with what? As long as the entire idea is to ship silver from Potosi abroad, Buenos Aires works in a similar fashion as having a port in Bourdaux to export Polish goods, but with a barely populated region in between. That's why I think development needs to come first: start sheep ranching to provide wool for textile mills and add additional economic activities: cannabis, ship building, turn yerba mate into an export product, build steel mills in Paraguay. Once this is taking shape you now have something worth defending.

 

[unprincipled peter]

Conquest of the Desert could be achieved if given enough incentive. There was no real need, though. IF an alien space bat dropped a lot of gold nuggets across the Pampas, the Spanish would have found a way.

Natives were a menace to the frontier, and the frontier was gradually pushed back as necessary.

The Spanish Empire was based on resource extraction, not development of a settler colony for trade. Any trade was regulated to benefit Spain, not the colony. Besides, Spain was behind on industrialization, so trade was inefficient.

 

[EMT]

But trade with what? As long as the entire idea is to ship silver from Potosi abroad, Buenos Aires works in a similar fashion as having a port in Bourdaux to export Polish goods, but with a barely populated region in between. That's why I think development needs to come first: start sheep ranching to provide wool for textile mills and add additional economic activities: cannabis, ship building, turn yerba mate into an export product, build steel mills in Paraguay. Once this is taking shape you now have something worth defending.

I agree with you completely but will play devil's advocate on this one caveat; it'd be like a port in Bordeaux to export Polish goods if Bordeaux was by far the easiest place to transport Polish goods for export(downriver). There's no reason to conquer more land that you're not going to make use of, especially not when you're Spain and have so many commitments pulling you thin every which way as-is

 

[AsukaEMP]

As long as the entire idea is to ship silver from Potosi abroad, Buenos Aires works in a similar fashion as having a port in Bourdaux to export Polish goods, but with a barely populated region in between.

Except that Buenos Aires is directly downriver from the Bolivian highlands along navigable waterways, so not really the same thing. Also Argentina might have been sparely populated but what population it did have was largely conentrated along the banks of those rivers so it's not like they'd be going through a desolate wasteland. If anything it's like shipping stuff from the Alps along the Donau, which is the same distance and considered completely normal.
So yes, initially it would probably revolve around Bolivian silver, exporting that while providing all the other goods and services that ships would need for their return journey. Which is what allows a local economy and market to develop and expand.

That's why I think development needs to come first: start sheep ranching to provide wool for textile mills and add additional economic activities: cannabis, ship building, turn yerba mate into an export product, build steel mills in Paraguay. Once this is taking shape you now have something worth defending.

You're not going to develop an export economy without being allowed to export stuff first... Furthermore you can't just project modern industries over historical settings and assume it would work. Argentina is a good place for sheep ranching for example, but it's very unlikely that Spain is going to allow the export of sheep wool because its production was far too important to the economy back in Spain. The same is likely true for cannabis/hemp, which was produced in Catalonia, Valencia, and (to a lesser extend) in Aragon.
The kinds of timber needed to build large seagoing ships can't be found anywhere near the Rio de la Plata, so they'd have to be transported over vast distance. And from what I'm finding there was little to no overlap between iron deposits in Paraguay and the places that the Spanish actually occupied, were they even aware of any noteworthy deposits in the region historically?
And there simply was no interest in yerba mate in Europe, and growing more of it doesn't mean merchants will actually want to buy it and take it back to Europe. Also wasn't yerba mate production controlled by the Jesuits?

Edit: quite frankly I'm not even sure how this is debatable, historically it was opened up to trade before there were any noteworthy local industries and it did actually lead to a massive growth of the local population and economy. Potosi silver was shipped downriver to Buenos Aires after the Bourbon reforms. Salted meat was produced to provide provisions for ships and for export to slave colonies, which simultaneously spurred the production of cattle hides, etc.​

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

How about turning the Falkland Islands into a Spanish base to utilize in the settlement of the Pampas? You can have the Spanish be panicked by the raids of Sir Francis Drake in the late 1570’s and start looking around at places which could help them defend themselves against English privateers and that could let them discover the Falkland Islands, and thus the Pampas. Plus, it would provide a motivation to settle the Pampas.