Too big to succeed? 'Rightsize' an overextended nation or empire

United States: they did not need all that land west of the Mississippi at all.
They didn't strictly need it, but having a west coast was helpful for trade with Asia.

Yes, the absurd thing is how people here argue that IT WAS NECESSARY for Britain to constantly get involved in continental wars and force the outbreak of wars when there were none, even though in fact it would have been better for EVERYONE if they didn't do it. Just as it would have been better for Spain to forget about the rest of Europe...
I don't know about that. A Europe-dominating power would have been a big threat to the British Isles. That's not to say that every single war Britain was involved in was necessary, but on balance I don't think Britain would have been better-off staying entirely aloof.
 
Using Latin as primary means of communication, putting emphasis of Rome as actual city, deriving legitimacy of Emperor from popular mandate are three ideas of pre-division Rome which were preserved in Charlemagne's empire, and they weren't as prominent in ERE.
I have absolutely no clue where you see the latter two in Charlemagne's empire. "putting emphasis of Rome as actual city"[sic] - what does that even mean? While Rome was technically part of Charlemagne's empire, it was a peripheral backwater, important only because the Pope resided there. And Frankish emperor's weren't even remotely legitimized by a popular mandate - they were legitimized by the Church, which paid no heed to the opinions of commoners.

The ERE also technically controlled Rome in the same manner as Charlemagne, and unlike in the West, Eastern Emperors could still be acclaimed by the military and people of the capital.

Wasn't Latin official language up until Heraclius?
Exactly. And Heraclius became emperor before the Slavs or the Arabs were a major threat to the ERE.
That doesn't make Ottoman Empire Roman, and no, the "subjects" changed from the times when ERE controlled Anatolia by inclusion of ethnic Turks.
Except the ERE also ruled over a large Turkish population for centuries and itself presided over a number of large demographic shifts during the millennium for which it existed.
Primary means of communication was ancestral language to modern Turkish and the actual goverment language was Osman - mashup of Persian, Arabic and Turkish, so 2/3 of it's consistent elements were not related to Latin at all.
If the identity of an empire is determined by the actual native language of most of its inhabitants, then the Roman Empire ceased being "Roman" long before Constantine split it in twain. Afaik Latin was only ever the native language of a large plurality of Romans (at its peak, maybe around 50% of the population) and not the majority. Inside the empire, the actual lingua franca from a very early age was Koine Greek.



These arguments reflect a long tradition of western Orientalism which seeks to monopolize the mythology of the SPQR by excluding certain groups from both our present identity as well as our mythology. It's the reason why Gibbons considers the HRE but not the ERE to be Roman; why the Orthodox sphere instead legitimizes the ERE and Russia; and why both deliberately exlude, other and orientalize Muslim states that claimed legitimacy from the SPQR - most notably the Ottomans. These arguments are not sound in themselves, but are contingent on Western political theology.

By contrast, Chinese nationalist mythology is more interested in assimilating the histories, identities and traditions of peoples within its sphere of influence. Hence the concept of "dynasties", which is, and always has been, a propaganda tool to legitimize political interests and delegitimize independence movements in the wider Sinitic sphere. Broadly, it's used to attack Mongolian, Uyghur, Manchu and Tibetan identity, and more narrowly, to establish the idea of "China" as a monolithic historical entity with some inherent claim to political power. It's the Mandate of Heaven transfered to a secular belief system.

And just like the idea that the gods ordained some guy to rule with absolute power, we should understand that both these mythologies are ultimately reductive and stand in the way of a complete understanding of history. Namely that monolithic empires that exist for thousands of years don't exist. I.e. the Han Empire collapsed in the 3rd century, and it would only be co-opted as part of a "Chinese" identity centuries later.
 
I'm kind of reluctant to count the Ottomans as a continuation of the Roman empire in the sense that it blurs the distinction between "outright foreign conqueror" and "part of the same polity", but that's pretty much the only sense I'm sure they don't count. Certainly being Persian speaking and Muslim has about as much to do with it as beards.

As something that fits in with "still Roman" in the fashion the Yuan fit in as "still Chinese", they absolutely qualify, though. I'm not sure that's as appropriate here (as the Roman empire did not collapse into pieces that were reassembled in the same sense as China has done repeatedly), but it does mean something.
 
The Roman Republic might have lasted well beyond the Migration Period of 4th-5th centuries AD if it remained within the territories of modern Italy and never expanded too far and too fast.
 
The Roman Republic might have lasted well beyond the Migration Period of 4th-5th centuries AD if it remained within the territories of modern Italy and never expanded too far and too fast.
Perhaps, or maybe it gets sacked by gallic invaders again. I'm not seeing how lack of expansion improves security or prevents civil wars.
 
IMO, the Tuwantinsuyu (Inca Empire) was probably overextended before the Spanish arrival. I don't think there's any wealth south of the Andean Plateau (about the Argentine-Bolivian border) that would make the region worth conquering, and the Canari of Ecuador were constantly rebelling. So, for the empire's sake, I'd limit them to OTL Peru, highland Bolivia + northernmost Chilean coast for a more stable polity.
 
Perhaps, or maybe it gets sacked by gallic invaders again. I'm not seeing how lack of expansion improves security or prevents civil wars.
I feel that the Alps are a more defendable frontier than either the Danube or the Rhine, no?

Anyway, I'd take the resource sink that is Britain out of the Roman Empire for sure. The only possible downside is you lose direct control of the mining of tin from Cornwall which was pretty valuable at the time, but I don't think you need direct control-the Celtic chiefs can't not trade for the luxuries of the Mediterranean, anyone who turns down the opportunity to buy wine for ritual feasts will get overthrown and replaced by a chief who is willing to trade.
 
I have absolutely no clue where you see the latter two in Charlemagne's empire. "putting emphasis of Rome as actual city"[sic] - what does that even mean? While Rome was technically part of Charlemagne's empire, it was a peripheral backwater, important only because the Pope resided there. And Frankish emperor's weren't even remotely legitimized by a popular mandate - they were legitimized by the Church, which paid no heed to the opinions of commoners.

The ERE also technically controlled Rome in the same manner as Charlemagne, and unlike in the West, Eastern Emperors could still be acclaimed by the military and people of the capital.

Well, for Charlemagne and his succesors up until XVIth century all emperors had to visit Rome to be coronated. Also technically, Charlemagne was acclaimed as emperor by people of Rome and his legitimacy as emperor derived from popular mandate (not his legitimacy as king of Franks, these are two different things). Of course, popular legitimacy was also present in ERE, but not in Ottoman Empire, thus I don't consider OE continuation of SPOR at all. And as far as "Church not paying heed to opinions of commoners" - until cardinal institution was established, pope himself was elected by the people of Rome.

Exactly. And Heraclius became emperor before the Slavs or the Arabs were a major threat to the ERE.

Yes, but as far as I know he changed the official language after major damage was done also from the beginning of his reign he was at war with Persians.

Except the ERE also ruled over a large Turkish population for centuries and itself presided over a number of large demographic shifts during the millennium for which it existed.

Except it didn't, ethnic Turks settling in Anatolia is post-Manzikert thing and generally ERE was losing more land in Anatolia than it recovered.

If the identity of an empire is determined by the actual native language of most of its inhabitants, then the Roman Empire ceased being "Roman" long before Constantine split it in twain. Afaik Latin was only ever the native language of a large plurality of Romans (at its peak, maybe around 50% of the population) and not the majority. Inside the empire, the actual lingua franca from a very early age was Koine Greek.

Identity of an empire is related to native language of it's creators and in Roman state, all documents were made in Latin and it was the case long after Constantine. Also, while Latin might be language of large plurality of Romans, no language had more native speakers than Latin in Roman Empire. And Augustus still defined Roman-ness as something countering Greek, and Augustus was the founder of Roman Empire.

Namely that monolithic empires that exist for thousands of years don't exist. I.e. the Han Empire collapsed in the 3rd century, and it would only be co-opted as part of a "Chinese" identity centuries later.

But the people of Han Empire still spoke ancestral language to Mandarin Chinese.
 
Does the HRE, besides the Church, or the Ottomans keep any Roman institutions? Because that’s how the Chinese are able to claim an unbroken line of continuous dynasties, their core institutions and ceremonial traditions endured.
 
I think the Japanese Empire could only have Korea and Japan to be stable.
Arguably not even Korea. An unfriendly Korea's too much of a threat for any Chinese empire to allow if possible (the Sui, Tang, Ming, Qing, and PRC all invaded and/or intervened in Korea for that very reason), the rough, wooded terrain lends itself to guerilla warfare, and the population's historically had a strong, distinct cultural identity and has been rather restive when it comes to foreign occupation (especially with the way Japan historically administered Korea).

Plus, Japan's historically had a hard time keeping itself together, which means control of Korea (at least until Meiji era Japan) wasn't going to be sustainable in the long term. The fact that the sea to reach Korea has periods where a wind-based navy can't safely cross just diminishes the possibility of stable Japanese rule over the peninsula until better ships are created.
 
I would contest the idea that Mediterranean cities were generally in decline in late antiquity, since Alexandria, Antioch, and Carthage were as big as ever, Rome was still pretty respectable (500-800,000), Constantinople expanded to 500,000, Ravenna and Mediolanum had over 100,000, and there is substantial evidence that towns expanded dramatically in the centuries before the Justinian Plague.
 
Undersized Empire? Are there cases of empires/countries who would be better suited for more expansion to a defensible frontier? The opposite of the "overextended empire"? Or is "underexpansion" not a thing?
 
Undersized Empire? Are there cases of empires/countries who would be better suited for more expansion to a defensible frontier? The opposite of the "overextended empire"? Or is "underexpansion" not a thing?
Well, probably Rome fits the bill here too. For the Eastern Roman Empire, losing the Anatolian heartland and later losing full control of the straits weakened the empire's structural, military, and economic integrity.
 
If the identity of an empire is determined by the actual native language of most of its inhabitants, then the Roman Empire ceased being "Roman" long before Constantine split it in twain.
In most empires the language of the imperial elite isn't the language of the majority of their subjects -- indeed, that's arguably part of the very definition of an empire.
Inside the empire, the actual lingua franca from a very early age was Koine Greek.
Not really. Greek was the lingua franca in most of the eastern provinces, but Latin was the lingua franca in the west, as well as being the language used for official, administrative purposes.
Does the HRE, besides the Church, or the Ottomans keep any Roman institutions? Because that’s how the Chinese are able to claim an unbroken line of continuous dynasties, their core institutions and ceremonial traditions endured.
Did they? I was under the impression that Chinese institutions were more often revived by successor dynasties than persisting uninterrupted.
I feel like Alexanders Macedonian Empire could have survived longer if he hadn't tried expanding into India.
TBH I feel like the Empire's disintegration was inevitable the moment Alexander died without a clear heir. Unless that's changed, staying away from India won't help.
 
Honestly the best way to ensure the Alexandrian Empire survives is no Alexander at all

Just have Philip live longer and do the work of unifying Greece as he intended to, maybe they get Persia as well or maybe not depending on if you think they could sustain that since I do believe he was capable of pulling the same stunts as Alex but he certainly didnt have a conquest of Iran in mind when he made his army

No India, no planned campaigns in Arabia or the Mediterranean

Just a stable greek empire ala Byzantium ahead of schedule
 
Arguably not even Korea. An unfriendly Korea's too much of a threat for any Chinese empire to allow if possible (the Sui, Tang, Ming, Qing, and PRC all invaded and/or intervened in Korea for that very reason), the rough, wooded terrain lends itself to guerilla warfare, and the population's historically had a strong, distinct cultural identity and has been rather restive when it comes to foreign occupation (especially with the way Japan historically administered Korea).

Plus, Japan's historically had a hard time keeping itself together, which means control of Korea (at least until Meiji era Japan) wasn't going to be sustainable in the long term. The fact that the sea to reach Korea has periods where a wind-based navy can't safely cross just diminishes the possibility of stable Japanese rule over the peninsula until better ships are created.
Although Korea can be Japonic Speaking in an alternative timeline, I think Japan could keep Korea, Sakhalin, and Taiwan if they have allies that reinforce that status quo.
 
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