"Sanity options" 2.0 - RAF, 1935-43

[naraic]

Does anyone have to hand the unit cost of the, Spitfire, Hurricane and the Defiant in 1939?

I find this difficult say for sure. Hyperwar gives manhour figures.

January 1940
Spitfire 15,200 man hours
Hurricane 10,300 man hours

The 1936 spitfire contract was about £6,500 a plane. That said I suspect that was an aspirational pricing given later production difficulties. The 1938 sale Turkey was £11,700 and the sale to Estonia was £12,600 but that may have been profit gouging.

The sale of a single spitfire and 2 merlin engines to France for £16,000 is also informative.

The closest comparison between Hurricane and Spitfire was a 1941 map document I read years ago that put the Hurricane at 8,500 each and the spitfire at 10,100 each.

I've found next to nothing on the Defiant cost.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Thanks, I was just thinking that one way to kill off the Defiant was via the treasury!

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Thanks, I was just thinking that one way to kill off the Defiant was via the treasury!

Just pull the turret, give it folding wings (with guns), a hook and an extra fuel tank behind the pilot and let the navy have it. The Air Ministry will insist it gets cancelled then.

 

[AlanL]

Just pull the turret, give it folding wings (with guns), a hook and an extra fuel tank behind the pilot and let the navy have it. The Air Ministry will insist it gets cancelled then.

The handling's going to be interesting when the fuel tank's empty

 

[Driftless]

Just pull the turret, give it folding wings (with guns), a hook and an extra fuel tank behind the pilot and let the navy have it. The Air Ministry will insist it gets cancelled then.

The handling's going to be interesting when the fuel tank's empty

I believe PLP's comment was tongue-in-cheek, built on the idea the FAA Defiant never gets off the drawing board.

Now....... I do not know the answer to a comparable OTL situation: how did the designers of the Skua and Roc manage that CoG issue? To my eyes, the airframes look pretty identical, except for the ball turret and it's power drive. There's gunners in both rigs, so those fellows should be a weight wash.

 

[JasTysoe]

Thanks, I was just thinking that one way to kill off the Defiant was via the treasury!

I saw figures a while ago, I think, but can't find them now. It was somethng like 9k for a Hurrie, 11 for a Spit, and 14 for a Daffy, very roughly if I recall correctly.

One problem may be that the RAF doesn't want the Treasury to get too interested in killing off expensive planes.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I saw figures a while ago, I think, but can't find them now. It was somethng like 9k for a Hurrie, 11 for a Spit, and 14 for a Daffy, very roughly if I recall correctly.

That'll be down to the cost of the turret which was cutting edge tech for the time.

The Defiant was not a bad aircraft by any means, and when called to do the job it was designed for (intercepting UNESCORTED bombers) it did it well. It also did reasonably well as a night interceptor. The airframe also had the potential (proved in actual test flights as a single seater) of making a decent single seat fighter superior to the Hurricane. I personally think it would have made a better basis for a naval fighter than the Hurricane and arguably the Spitfire as well.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Defiant was not a bad aircraft by any means, and when called to do the job it was designed for (intercepting UNESCORTED bombers) it did it well. It also did reasonably well as a night interceptor. The airframe also had the potential (proved in actual test flights as a single seater) of making a decent single seat fighter superior to the Hurricane.

Do we know for a fact how many bombers the Defiants killed during the BoB?
What were the actual test results of a single-seater Defiant?

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Just pull the turret, give it folding wings (with guns), a hook and an extra fuel tank behind the pilot and let the navy have it. The Air Ministry will insist it gets cancelled then.

You might need to add some guns!

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

(1)Do we know for a fact how many bombers the Defiants killed during the BoB?
(2)What were the actual test results of a single-seater Defiant?

(1) I don't know the numbers but it is quoted as the most successful night fighter in terms of kills in the Blitz.

(2) In testing it was clocked at 360mph. Now that's without weapons so it would probably drop a bit, but it's also the prototype Defiant with an early engine.

 

[tomo pauk]

(1) I don't know the numbers but it is quoted as the most successful night fighter in terms of kills in the Blitz.

Perhaps then it should not be a good idea to claim that Defiant was good in killing the unescorted bombers?

(2) In testing it was clocked at 360mph.

Any handy source to back that up?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Perhaps then it should not be a good idea to claim that Defiant was good in killing the unescorted bombers?



Any handy source to back that up?

From Tony Buttler’s ‘British Secret Projects, Fighters and Bombers 1935-1950.

Prototype Defiant K8310 eventually had its turret removed and in August 1940 was flown as an unarmed flying demonstrator for a fixed-gun version called P.94, which was intended for rapid production using many complete Defiant components. The P94 had the turret replaced by 12 0.303” MG disposed in each side of the wing centre section in nests of six – 4 20mm cannon replacing 8 of the 0.303” in two nests of two each were an alternative while the MG could also be depressed 17 degrees for ground attack work. P.94 had a 1,100hp Merlin XX, which offered a maximum speed of 360mph at 21.700ft, a sea level climb of 3,250ft.min and would get to 25,000ft in 8.1 minutes. To allow the type to act as a long range fighter two 30-gallon auxiliary tanks could be carried and in production the aircraft would use standard Defiant jigs. The P94 was never ordered but Boulton Paul also proposed to convert the now single seat Defiant prototype into a 4 cannon fighter demonstrator. The Air Ministry’s rejection of this idea was recorded at a company board meeting on 26th September 1940.

 

[tomo pauk]

From Tony Buttler’s ‘British Secret Projects, Fighters and Bombers 1935-1950.

Prototype Defiant K8310 eventually had its turret removed and in August 1940 was flown as an unarmed flying demonstrator for a fixed-gun version called P.94, which was intended for rapid production using many complete Defiant components. The P94 had the turret replaced by 12 0.303” MG disposed in each side of the wing centre section in nests of six – 4 20mm cannon replacing 8 of the 0.303” in two nests of two each were an alternative while the MG could also be depressed 17 degrees for ground attack work. P.94 had a 1,100hp Merlin XX, which offered a maximum speed of 360mph at 21.700ft, a sea level climb of 3,250ft.min and would get to 25,000ft in 8.1 minutes. To allow the type to act as a long range fighter two 30-gallon auxiliary tanks could be carried and in production the aircraft would use standard Defiant jigs. The P94 was never ordered but Boulton Paul also proposed to convert the now single seat Defiant prototype into a 4 cannon fighter demonstrator. The Air Ministry’s rejection of this idea was recorded at a company board meeting on 26th September 1940.

Thank you for the quote.

Several notes, however:
- when the P.94 materialized?
- did it materialized at all; is there a photo of it anywhere (actual fighter, with all these guns described)?
- Merlin XX was not an 'early Merlin' in context of when the BP fighters were discussed, but the best Merlin available, and probably the best engine for a fighter in 1940/41; Spitfire III was supposed to do 400 mph (unarmed prototype4?) with the Merlin XX in the nose, and was actually manufactured
- if 360 mph fighter is needed, Spitfire I can do it, on the widely-available Merlin III in 1938 (ie. no need to wait for the Merin XX from the late 1940)

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Thank you for the quote.

Several notes, however:
- when the P.94 materialized?
- did it materialized at all; is there a photo of it anywhere (actual fighter, with all these guns described)?
- Merlin XX was not an 'early Merlin' in context of when the BP fighters were discussed, but the best Merlin available, and probably the best engine for a fighter in 1940/41; Spitfire III was supposed to do 400 mph (unarmed prototype4?) with the Merlin XX in the nose, and was actually manufactured
- if 360 mph fighter is needed, Spitfire I can do it, on the widely-available Merlin III in 1938 (ie. no need to wait for the Merin XX from the late 1940)

Though to be fair, 12 MG [1] or 4MG +4x 20mm (assuming they were available and worked) would make for a pretty bad day for the target.
Whether the offensive improvement would be worth the loss of speed is an interesting question.

[1] 12 MG with standard load out would be nice, but so much better if 2 or even of the extra guns used the rather explosive De Wilde inspired incendiaries. But that would need another factory.

 

[vetinari]

The handling's going to be interesting when the fuel tank's empty

Before this the Defiant had it's fuel tanks in the wings because the turret occupied the space normally used for it. This why it had no wing guns. Without the turret, the space could be occupied with fuel tanks. With the turret, the wings were occupied with fuel tanks. It is an either/or problem. That is why the Defiant had no wing guns.