Map Thread XXII
- Thread starter Balkanized U.S.A
- Start date
With this many nuclear armed countries, has there ever been a nuclear strike, accident, or terrorist attack?
The Iberian peninsula in the modern day in a world where the War of Castilian Succession ended in Portugal's favor.
I am back to post more of my timeline into the map thread. If you don't know me, I am currently running a timeline that focuses on a Canada that is a defined superpower. If you are interested in seeing the other post/information, check out the thread. If you are interested, I do have a discord that you can join and you'll see me discuss the timeline with its updates, creation of maps, world development, etc. The next few post are going to be discussing the alternate American Civil War, so it will get more interesting from here on out. Hope to see you there, and enjoy!
THE GREATER NORTH
THE BRIEF HISTORY OF CALIFORNIA
THE BRIEF HISTORY OF CALIFORNIA
History and lore:
The Road to Statehood
Following the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848, Mexico would secede the territory of Alta California and many more to the United States. The United States had finally achieved its goal to reach from sea to shining sea, with its coast stretching from the 42nd parallel to the beaches of Sonora and Baja California, becoming a great Pacific power. Soon after, gold would be found in California and mass waves of immigration would follow, an event known as the Californian Gold Rush. California would soon have a large population beginning to develop in the San Francisco Bay region, creating an important port city for the Pacific. This rapid growth would have California applying for statehood, with claimed borders stretching from modern-day Redwood to Baja California. In Congress, it was agreed upon that California should be admitted as a state, however disagreements came when it came to a decisive issue that loomed over all federal policy. The fight between the free and slave states would not ignore California, as the slave states held a majority in the Senate over the free states. One side argued for a free California, and one side argued for a slave-based California, but there was a third option that was heavily debated.
The proposal was to partition California from north and south following the 37th parallel (the Missouri Compromise Line) and to have the north be a free state and the south be a slave state. This proposal became heavily controversial among the free states, claiming it was a way to undermine the balance by either maintaining the status quo or widening the gap between free and slave states. The bill to make California a state would not pass for some time due to the controversy, delaying the ever-needed legislation to develop the region. The Senate finally came to an agreement after a great debate on California, with the state finally being admitted as a free state in 1850.
The transcontinental railroad debate
The next conflict of interest regarding California would be a transcontinental railway to the Pacific. All parties agreed that a railroad should be built in California, but where that railroad would be built was the topic of debate. The free states argued that a railroad should be built above the 37 parallel and connect to San Francisco, while the slave states argued for one that should be built in the south—starting from New Orleans and extending towards Southern California and connecting to San Francisco along the central coast. The Senate had debated about cost, labour, resources, and who would pay for it, yet no one could agree upon where it would be built. This led to California feeling and in reality, being isolated from the Union, the only way the state could efficiently travel and trade with the rest of the Union was through naval transportation or a dangerous route along the California Trail.
The question of independence
Congress was becoming more disorganized as time went on. The question about the division of the newly acquired western territories, the bloody occupation of Yucatan, and the south’s plans to acquire more territory in the Caribbean and expand its slavery-dominant economy (an action that would affect foreign relations and economics) would bring the Union to a turning point, having nine free states and later two slave states with a low economic reliance on slavery begin to rebel and declare their independence in the Northeast United States to form the Free American Republic on February 26, 1859. While such an action wasn’t the most surprising, it still came as a shock to the Union, California, and the world. Eventually, as diplomacy was not working in the Union's favour, the war would break out in the Northeast and Washington D.C. would be captured by FAR forces. The Union's reaction was not light, committed to taking back the capital and keeping the Union together with the help of the Great Lakes' industrial capabilities. Despite this, a large portion of the United States population and industry were in this newly declared independent nation, so such a war would not be quick.
These events would have California questioning its future in the Union. If the FAR were to be successful in declaring independence, California would be at risk of being the main target of anti-slavery policies. It could see itself divided as originally planned, it may be forced to practice slavery and undermine its wages, or be forced to send its people into wars that would help expand the practice. Such questions would be too large of a risk to leave unanswered until it was too late, so California believed it was only right for its economic and social future to declare independence shortly after the FAR. Soon after, the western regions of the Utah Territory (mostly abolitionist compared to the rest of the territory) would also declare themselves a part of California.
In terms of actual fighting, California would not see fighting until 1860, but throughout the war, it would see pro-Union rebellions in the southern regions. Union troops gathered in the northern bank of the Gulf of California in Sonora and Arizona, launching an offensive into the north of Baja California. Californian defences were well prepared in this region as it was the easiest terrain to launch an offensive through. Union troops slowly pushed through the defences and reached the Salton Sink, having to penetrate through the Peninsular Ranges to settle San Diego and split Baja California from the rest of California. Californian Forces were able to defend the mountain range from continuous Union offensives, while still maintaining proper supply chains compared to its rival. This was due to California's population and industries being in closer proximity to the region compared to the Unions. The average Union force would take a month or longer to arrive, with naval shipments taking 5 months (even then, shipments through the Bay of California were risky when the Baja California Peninsula was under enemy control), while also having to maintain its eastern theatre with the FAR; costing more resources and lives than the Union could afford in the long run. California's war was not about winning battles, rather it was a logistical battle on who would break first, and California had the advantage. Despite this advantage, California would still see itself lose territory around the San Bernardino Forest, with Union troops pushing towards the outskirts of Los Angeles. However, California would be able to slow down the advancement in San Bernardino.
In 1863, Union forces would eventually penetrate through the Peninsula Ranges and occupy San Diego, splitting Baja California as planned to take over the region to secure their naval passage to the Gulf of California and push further into California. Despite this loss, California was able to hold its defences north of San Diego as Union troops started to expand across Baja California, but that did not matter as the eastern theatre was becoming increasingly difficult for the Union to maintain proper defences around Richmond, the de facto capital of the United States. This would cause the Union to pull back some of its resources from the Western theatre, creating the appropriate conditions for California to push back Union troops from San Diego and the Salton Sink. California had hoped to cut off the Union's supply chain by taking back the Salton Sink and slowly pushing them out of San Diego and into the Peninsula Ranges. The plan would work, but it would cost many lives and resources for both sides, mostly California. At the same time, pro-Union rebels would be seen at their largest during this time. This would create a problem for California’s army, as attempts and actions of sabotage and violence would break out occasionally between civilians and troops. A stalemate would occur until the end of the war.
During the fighting, it would not only be Californians who would volunteer to fight in the war. Many Native Americans alongside Mexicans would join the Californian Army to prevent Union forces from expanding into California. This unit would be a major help to California, as they were determined to deter the Union's goals.
In 1865, fighting would come to a stop in both theatres of the war as a result of a ceasefire to talk about the conditions for peace. These talks would be hosted by Britain in London, and they would not conclude until 1866 with the signing of the Treaty of London. The conditions for peace were as followed: The United States would recognize the independence of California and the Free American Republic, the United States would recognize the established borders under which the Free American Republic and California inherit, granting fishing rights to both nations in the Pacific and Atlantic, prisoners-of-war on each side are released, and territories captured by all sides to be returned without compensation. This would effectively allow California and the FAR to be independent nations of their own, and to seek their future with its neighbours.
Post-independence and California's economic growth, 1860-1900
After its war for independence, California would begin to develop its immigration, political, and economic policies for its future. It would choose its capital to be the city of Sacramento, and divide the nation into six states (Atascadero, Colorado, Nisenan, Redwood, San Francisco, and San Joaquin) and two territories (Baja California and Nevada Territory).
California's first step towards the economic power it is today was building railways to connect its large settlements and ports from the north to the south. Its first railroad post-independence would be the Los Angeles & San Pedro Railroad in 1869, with the expansion into San Diego, Baja California, and the United States by the end of 1876 known as the Southern Pacific Railroad. Another would be built to connect San Francisco with the rest of the Southern Pacific, officially connecting most of California's large population centres. These railroads would allow cities like San Francisco, Los Angeles, and many more to grow into the massive urban sprawls they are today, and would attract foreign investments from Europe and many other nations. California's agriculture industry would see massive growth between the periods of 1860 and 1900, just as the country itself did. At the time, California's economy would be mostly based on agriculture, resource extraction, and shipping.
In terms of immigration, many people from Europe, the United States, Canada, and Mexico would begin to settle in California. Most people would move into the San Francisco and Los Angeles regions, but as California began investing in larger ports along the Bay of California it would see larger settlements in Baja California begin to emerge, giving Baja California the ability to apply for statehood in 1869. The same would apply to Los Angeles, which gained statehood in 1870.
With its rapid population and economic growth, investments in its military would naturally follow. California would make large arms deals with Britain for guns, ships, and more while also beginning to build its military complex, developing large units and building a strong defence force for its southern border and small investments in the Nevada Desert. By 1910, it would have Armed Forces with the Army Department and the Navy Department. Its navy would have a heavy presence in the Gulf of California, designed to cut off the United States Pacific trade routes if a war were to break out.
The Great War
California would be one of the main theatres for the North American Front of the Great War. Before the war broke out, California would be a part of a military alliance with Canada and the FAR, hoping to deter any American aggression in the North as tension around the world began to escalate. The Americans had begun to industrialize outside of the Great Lakes after the banning of slavery, moving away from its Deep South agrarian origins and beginning to build the army it needed for its goals on the continent. This promptly started an arms race between Canada and its allies with the United States, building massive naval ships and large lines of defences along the border. In short, war was coming and the continent was preparing for it. American rhetoric began talking about the Great Loss of 1812 and the Civil War, and how Americans were cheated by Britain and its colonies to deter American growth and development. The final nail in the coffin would be clear when the United States began developing ties with Germany, stating Americans and Germans hold similar values and goals against British Imperialism.
When news broke out of American warships being deployed in the Great Lakes ( violation of the Treaty of Ghent after the War of 1812) and the stories of Canadian and American warships firing on each other in the early morning of June 28, 1914, it was clear that war had broken out in North America as it had recently in Europe. While fighting began breaking out in the Great Lakes, California would see large clashes at its southern border, a repeat of the Civil War. However, the United States now had a larger population, industrial base, and proper logistical infrastructure to maintain an offensive in California. It was clear the United States wished to see parts of Southern California as its own, particularly Los Angeles and the Baja California Peninsula. Such echoes of California's fight for independence would surface a stronger sense of nationalism across the nation for its new generation, with many men beginning to take up arms to fight against the United States.
During the war, the largest naval battle in the Californian theatre would take place north of La Paz, where most of California's Gulf naval fleets were located. The United States would be able to call itself the victor, but it would lose multiple ships and men as California would. California would also see a small naval battle on the outskirts of San Francisco Bay, with an American ship firing on the city of San Francisco and causing damage to civilian infrastructure.
The United States would see a successful offensive in the south of California, reaching the centre of Los Angeles, but with fierce and bloody resistance, California would be able to push back the Americans and begin a counter-offensive. Los Angeles would begin to see the disastrous effects of explosive artillery and trench warfare, similar to Detroit in Canada. During the fighting, the United States would cut off the Colorado Rivers water supply to California, causing many problems for the citizens living there and the soldiers who fought there. This action would later be solved at the end of the war, with California and the United States agreeing that the river's flow of water would be shared accordingly moving forward.
In the end, California would repel the Americans, but it would find itself with the task of having to rebuild its largest cities from the ground up in certain regions. California would begin to invest in projects to help rebuild its south and military, which it would not see completion until the 1930s. However, with these investments came benefits. California would begin developing its aerospace industry and become more influenced by its industrial industry rather than its agriculture sector. Its shift into the manufacturing industry would build great morale after the Great War, becoming a defining image of the nation's ability to come back after such death and destruction with a stronger sense of security after defending itself.
Rebuilding its relationship with the United States
Relations between California and the United States would not begin to improve until the early 1960s when Californian President Ronald Brown would begin to launch his foreign policy to promote a greater economic and social partnership with the United States.
The United States had just recently started to suppress its isolationist policies while also expanding its manufacturing base to more than just having to supply the country's needs, removing its dependency on its agrarian economy and resource extraction and promoting the production of consumer goods and business. This naturally attracted greater foreign investment to the United States, which opened a new door for California to build a stronger economic relationship.
California would become the most vocal in North America for a free trade agreement, which would effectively remove trade tariffs between the nations. California would do this by signing the California-America Free Trade Agreement, creating the conditions for what would soon become the North American Free Trade Organization (NAFTA). This agreement would allow Californian and American businesses to fairly compete in both markets and allow greater economic freedom and growth, while also incentivizing the two nations to develop large infrastructure projects that would benefit each other. Some of these projects include large highway systems to make travel between the nations easier, the Boulder Canyon Dam between Mojave and New Mexico to produce electricity for both nations along the Colorado River, opening ferry services across the Gulf of California to encourage tourism in the region, and overall making cross border travel much simpler. These approaches to common transportation and infrastructure would build an image between California and the United States as two nations who finally realized their relationship of shared history and values would allow for greater cooperation and growth.
The Pacific War
California would not see fighting in its borders during the Pacific War but would be heavily involved in sending its military, developing, and building weaponry for the coalition against Japanese expansion in the Pacific. Its investments into the aerospace industry would come with great benefit to itself and the war, creating thousands of new jobs and attracting greater investment to its economy. California would see a massive expansion in its navy, doubling in size and creating some of the most modern ships of the time, such as the aircraft carrier. By 1942, California would be creating its own Air Force Branch to help support the war. California would participate in training pilots in the Canadian Prairies and the Nevada Desert, an operation known as the Coalition Air Training Plan, the largest aviation training program in history.
California would have over 300,000 soldiers fight in the war, with most of them fighting in Southeast Asia alongside Canada. California's Armed Forces would participate in the Coalition island-hopping strategy, which had California and Canada working together to push closer toward the Philippines and the Japanese mainland, an important objective to cut off supplies to Japan and build the conditions of surrender for Japan. This participation would include all branches of California's Armed Forces, with most of California's fleets stationed in the Yukon and British Hawaii.
During the Pacific War, California would participate in the Granville Project. The project included Britain, Canada, California, and the FAR, intending to create a nuclear weapon. Most of the project would take place in North America, mostly along the West Coast. The project would employ 100,000 people across all four nations, helping to develop the first Atomic weapon. Most of the physical testing would take place near the once small city of Las Vegas in California, with major investments into the city’s infrastructure to support workers in the region, helping to create Las Vegas into the large city it is today. The site was chosen as it was cheaper to send goods to the region, and it was far from large population centres, but today, the site is a major tourist attraction as it was where the first successful nuclear weapon was tested. Despite being successful, the bomb would not be used in Japan as planned as the war came to an end before the weapon could be deployed.
The War on Terror
Despite not being a member of the Atlantic Accord, California had an independent defence pact with Canada. Currently, the alliance has only been invoked twice, during the Great War and the War on Terror. On August 8, 2008, Canada would call on its allies to help it seek for those who were deemed responsible for the terrorist attacks on August 6. California would be one of these allies, and while Canada was the only nation attacked that day, it would be called by many as an attack on the civilized world.
As a response, Canada led a coalition force to invade Yemen, where the perpetrators of the attack were located. California would support the invasion by sending its own troops into the war, being one of the main nations to help secure the capital of Sana’a and conduct air and intelligence operations as the fighting continued. California would later pull out all of its troops in Yemen when the operation was called a success by Prime Minister Harper.
Today, California still conducts air and intelligence operations with the Atlantic Accord across many parts of the world to combat terrorism and many other threats they face.
Modern-day
California today is a nation with a rich history, culture, economy, and positive image on the global stage. It is one of the richest nations on earth, globally ranked as the eighth largest GDP of $3.9 trillion between India and Germany and ranked fourth richest nation in North America. Its economy would be one of the leaders in the creation of computers, communication, education, environmentalism, and entertainment—it’s one of the most diverse economies, with a mix of technology, innovation, finance, and agriculture. Its technological industries are mostly located in the San Francisco Bay Area and Greater Los Angeles Area while the Central Valley is most known for its agricultural production. These regions are connected by large rail and road networks, allowing for transportation to be easier for tourists, shipments, and its citizens (if they beat the traffic, of course). The richest state of California is Silicon Valley, with a GDP of $1.1 trillion. The state is home to California's manufacturing, business services, and technology—one of California's most important industries. Most of its economy is reliant on trade with its neighbours and international commerce.
California is home to over 50 million people, roughly 35% of its population located in the San Francisco and Los Angeles Metropolitan Areas, with Los Angeles being its most densely populated and most populated state.
During the first decades of California's independence, most immigrants were coming from Latin America (the country's largest demographic), specifically Mexico and the Caribbean during the United States' colonization of the region. Today, most immigrants to California are of Asian origin after the Pacific War. The second largest group of immigrants would be of European origin, most of them arriving from the western United States and Canada. Another demographic group would be its African American population, where groups of freed slaves would immigrate to the country during the United States slave migration period. Despite these waves of immigration, most Californians are born in the country. However, with difficulties following climate change and the country's shortages of water, many Californians have been moving out of the country to other nations like Canada and the United States.
California's official languages are English and Spanish. The nation teaches both languages in its education system and requires all text of English and Spanish to be translated into either product labels or bills passed by the government. Most of the country's first language is Spanish, but most of California's population is bilingual. While English and Spanish are California's largest, a mix of Asian speakers creates California's diverse demographics.
Most of California's population is Christian, with an estimated 32% of the population aligned with the religion. While 27% of the population is not aligned with any religion, a demographic that continues to grow within the nation. The next largest group is the Roman Catholics, making up an estimated 28% of the population.
California's culture is a mix of multiple, with most of it being influenced by American, Canadian, and Hispanic cultures and the uprising of Asian cultures in its metropolitan areas. The nation is known for its coastal, resort-like culture, with its golden coast being an icon for its tourism and identity, a stereotype of all Californians being beach and surfing-loving people. Its economic culture is to be seen as innovative and obsessed over new technologies—this image is maintained by the government's focus on bringing these industries into and innovating in the country, bringing massive competition to its eternal and outer markets.
California's largest entertainment centres are located in Los Angeles. Despite them not being the largest, they are seen as important to Californians and continue to maintain their largest tourist attractions. Some of these are Disneyland and Hollywood, with others like Warner Bros and Universal Studios. Some of its largest tech companies are Apple and Google, which are the most popular and largest corporations in the world.
California is home to some of the most notable universities, such as the California Institute of Technology and Stanford University. Most of California's major universities are focused on the technology sector, but it also holds a great deal in trades and arts.
The Californian Armed Forces today is a military with experience, and a sustainable economy to help maintain it as one of the most modern and strongest armies in the globe. Its current active personnel is over 480,000 with its reserve personnel at 720,500. Its defence budget currently is $71 billion, making up 2% of California's GDP. Altogether, California would have three service branches: the Californian Army, the Air Force, and its Navy. Its largest arms producer would be Lockheed Martin, creating some of its iconic aircraft such as the F-22, F-16, and the C-130. Its navy would have a total of 98 ships and two aircraft carriers (the Winston Maitland, named after one of California's top generals during the Civil War, based in San Francisco; the Mason Reynold, named after the Secretary of Defence during the Great War, based in San Diego). Despite not being a part of the Atlantic Accord, California has a strong relationship with the alliance as one of its global partners.
Oh, quite a few. But most arsenals are small and bombs are usually fairly low yield fission devices (only a few countries can afford fusion weapons). Generally speaking, wars are not fought for truly existential stakes and atomics are a final resort rarely used, so although there have been some pretty horrible events, even the worst cases were Soviets-in-WWII level devastation rather than Cuban Missile Crisis Goes Hot.
Third map in CP victory series
Following the German victory in the Great War, British forces return occupied German colonies in Africa, in exchange for Germans withdrawing from Asia, dropping all claims in China and in Polynesia. Germany gains small amounts of territory from France.
In their peace with the Ottomans, the British are forced to give independence to Egypt but keep control over the canal zone. Both the Ottomans and the British agree to drop claims on Egypt.
Italian Africa:
Following the socialist victory in the Italian civil war, the socialist forces move to gain control over the African holdings still under control of the royalists. The socialists are able to capture Libya after regional forces surrender without a fight. However Britain helps establish a Italian government in exile in Italian Somaliland. This new 'Kingdom of Italy' proves to be a financial drain on the British as the Italians are unable to maintain control outside of coastal settlements. Plagued by rebellions the Somalian Question becomes the hot button topic as both the British and Germans make moves to gain control over the region. As well as to prevent a successful African revolt from overthrowing a 'European' power that may weaken their own hold on their colonies. Eventually it is decided to allow Ethiopian occupation of Italian Somaliland.
Most certainly. Especially as all the actions that the Italians did after WWI on gaining control over the local Sultans did not happen ittl, meaning not a whole lot of European presence outside of the coast, with Somali rebels who were on the verge of independence and kicking out the Italian royalists. More of a stopgap measure to prevent a breakaway state. The British didn't really want Italian Somaliland, and they didn't want to Germans gaining control of it even more, as it could allow Germany to threaten or close shipping into the Mediterranean. On the other hand preventing Britain from gaining any strength is basically the German foreign policy at this point.
Could the Ethiopians maintain control over the territory longterm? Doubtful, but with Ethiopia being a German economic party they are getting a decent amount of support. However the Ethiopians are threading a needle, the Germans are willing to offer more military and financial aid than the British, but they have to be careful to not be seen as outright German allies in the event of a second great war. I expect that Somalia may be one of the first pieces of Africa to regain independence ITTLs decolonization.
The nature of the end of the Great War in this timeline is one that instead of seeing the first go as the war to end all wars, it was merely the first round the German-British boxing match. The whole world is anticipating any number of moves to be the bridge to far and the return to hostilities. However, reconciliation isn't impossible, both the German and British are very wary of communist threats. Germanies biggest ally, the Habsburgs have already collapsed, and France could be soon to follow.
YEAH BABY!!! BRUNSWICK IS RICHER THAN HANOVER!
SUCK IT PEINE WEST!
For those who don't know. Our cities have a pretty big historical and football rivalry. We like to insult each other as Peine West/Ost.
@Yourdamgrandpa Interesting California there, some good stuff, though a lot of parallelism with the real world considering the many changes.
How did civil rights work out in this world?
How did civil rights work out in this world?
I have had a suspicion that CP victories would be more evidently unstable than OTL in the early 20th century
Hey y'all! I've updated and fixed a couple of things, some of them you mentioned. I hope this is as complete as it can be done without being a mess of information.Europe all over the world!Diachronic map of every territory ever controlled in any way by European powers (yes, the Ottomans are included):
Karl der Große
Banned
I agree. It makes total sense. When the underdog wins, the guy with more power originally, though beaten, still has a lot of power to fight with in the future.
Interesting, I do agree that Germany would be hopeless at stopping Britain if France fell, so the Kaiser would be forced into a white peace. (Moreover, I don't think Germany really "won" the Great War, they only got a a few gains from France and lost some of their far eastern colonies. Nevertheless, I still do think this is more realistic to a German WW1 victory than Kaiserreich.
What is the flag next to Poland for? Courland? If not and it is mostly to fill in space, the Norwegian flag might be appropriate, as they have a few Arctic and Antarctic islands that no one else has controlled. Or wanted to, given how it is difficult to get out of a boat onto the land with some of them. Which would have the added side effect of making the Polish flag slightly less long. Anyways, now to wait and see if anyone decides to munroify this map. Though I do have to wonder if as much of this world should be as blue and purple as it is. I suppose the United States and South America are a lot clearer on what lands where actually settled or occupied, with the Canadians and Australians just claiming all the unoccupied land long enough to have the claims stick.
Prussia, I think. The Courland flag is very similar to Poland.
Come to think of it, that might actually be Courland's flag, not Poland's.
There is no Polish flag on the map. What you think is Poland is Courland which had a colony of sorts in Tobago. (Too much Polandball/Countryball comics perhaps?)
Curonian colonization of the Americas - Wikipedia
The flag to the left of it with the black eagle is the flag of Prussia.
I suspected it might be Prussia, though that means it is best traded for the Norwegian flag, then. I would say the Prussians are considered folded into the German Empire flag, like how there is no flag for Scotland despite their own colonies. And thanks with the information on the Curonian flag. In retrospect, a long flag does make sense for some older country that got swallowed up Before changing to something more flyable.There is no Polish flag on the map. What you think is Poland is Courland which had a colony of sorts in Tobago. (Too much Polandball/Countryball comics perhaps?)
Curonian colonization of the Americas - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The flag to the left of it with the black eagle is the flag of Prussia.
The civil rights for California or the United States?
I wrote a whole thing about the Civil Rights Movement about the United States and I can send you it, if you wish.
For California, I really don’t have anything written about it at all, but I have had discussions about it. Particularly, the white populations view on Latin American immigrants during and after the Great War. They would play a crucial part in the defense of the country: joining the army, possible partisan fighting, etc. They would be extremely effective and driven by the US’s history in meddling with their history, and it would grant a different view in society for them. The steps after that is something I haven’t thought of yet
A ratio of 1:2 is actually quite common even in the modern day, thought after 2:3.