THE FRENCH LINE TL: SS Normandie survives fire converted into a WW2 troopship.
- Thread starter oca2073
- Start date
No you haven't.
First, I said the US was indecisive about whether to convert Normandie to a Pacific carrier or a troopship. Thus this delayed things.
Second, the value of such large troopships wasn't known in 1940/most of 1941. It wasn't until Cunard's Queens were converted that the US saw how superliners could be used.
Third, US was neutral and Lend Lease can be carried by regular cargo ships, one doesn't need to use Normandie. These superliners have the advantage of transporting men quickly safely faster than the threat of U-Boats. If you aren't transporting huge amounts of men to Europe and only material, these ocean liners have no practicality. It's to prevent the huge loss of life in case of a sinking. On the other hand, if you commit superliners to carrying merely material and they get sunk (in the unlikely event), you've just lost a very big asset. Remember, back in 1940/1941, the Allies were not 100% sure whether German U-boats could track down such superliners. It was merely a guess that they couldn't.
As for 1942, since the North Africa campaign began OTL in November 1942, you've not proven that it couldn't have happened several weeks earlier with an extra superliner. Even given the same number of available troops (140,000 as you say), the speed difference with Normandie is perhaps an extra month shaved off allowing it to happen in October.
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Well you haven't convinced me.
The idea that UK couldn't be used as training base for Italy... is absurd
Perhaps the US preferred to train at home for North Africa and France. But that hardly makes a difference in this TL. Normandie still confers an additional advantage for the Allies. See reasons stated above.
OTL in 1942, North Africa campaign began in November 1942. Since the available troops (100,000 same as OTL) were transported faster with Normandie, it begins in October. 200,000 of the 300,000 transported troops are untrained. These are sent to Scottish highlands to practice mountain warfare and are ready for Italy quicker than OTL.
Normandie wasn't used initially because of the reasons stated above.
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So I took this pic of SS Normandie when I went over and stayed on-board. Having done Queen Mary in Brighton - beautiful, Art Deco, but somehow so BRITISH; the Ile de France in Cannes - expensive, posh, and oh so conservative France; SS Bretagne in Nice- huge, expansive, lush,and yet somewhat dated; SS Rotterdam in Rotterdam - great atmosphere, the after dinner show is great, yet it is Normandie I remember best. So rich, so cultured. French, but not snotty like on the Ile de France. There is still a youthful feel to the Normandie, like she could jump out of her dock and roar across the Atlantic at any time that the others didn't quite have. Queen Mary is 'happy' where she is in retirement, and Bretagne looks like it missing its dated catalogue models. Normandie though? Not so much. Perhaps it is because they kept her power train working that gives her her heartbeat? QM has hers too, but its never on to the same load, or at least it felt that way.
Perhaps I am reading too much into the spirit of these old Ships... but if any of them did go for a midnight run to New York? I'd be on Normandie...
Still working on this TL, I went back and edited a lot of stuff, particularly Bretagne's interiors to make the public rooms more consistent and believable, added some details, go back and take a look if you want.
So I took this pic of SS Normandie when I went over and stayed on-board. Having done Queen Mary in Brighton - beautiful, Art Deco, but somehow so BRITISH; the Ile de France in Cannes - expensive, posh, and oh so conservative France; SS Bretagne in Nice- huge, expansive, lush,and yet somewhat dated; SS Rotterdam in Rotterdam - great atmosphere, the after dinner show is great, yet it is Normandie I remember best. So rich, so cultured. French, but not snotty like on the Ile de France. There is still a youthful feel to the Normandie, like she could jump out of her dock and roar across the Atlantic at any time that the others didn't quite have. Queen Mary is 'happy' where she is in retirement, and Bretagne looks like it missing its dated catalogue models. Normandie though? Not so much. Perhaps it is because they kept her power train working that gives her her heartbeat? QM has hers too, but its never on to the same load, or at least it felt that way.
Perhaps I am reading too much into the spirit of these old Ships... but if any of them did go for a midnight run to New York? I'd be on Normandie...
As for Normandie's power train, it's way past its life expectancy. They built the machines and engines to last 30 years, after 38 years there's no way it can keep running except with expensive maintenance. All the ocean liners will get their power from off-shore after retirement.
Btw, nice pic of Normandie in "retirement", haha thanks.
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Cunard vs the French Line
During the 1950s, Cunard was by far the dominant transatlantic liner company in the world and had no real rivals. No other company after WW2 possessed two ships large and fast enough to run a regular two-ship service across the North Atlantic. They had numerous other vessels such as the motor ships Georgic and Britannic on other North Atlantic routes as well as the second Mauretania which acted as a reliable third ship to Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth in case one of them needed extended maintenance. As far as punctuality went, the service Cunard provided was quite unparalleled in transatlantic history.
However if the British and Americans had to pick a second rival line next to Cunard, it would have to be the French Line. This was primarily due to Normandie widely regarded as grandest ship ever built. If Cunard had regularity of service with two fast and large ships, the fastest ship and the largest ship, the Normandie was a close second in both of these respects but widely regarded as the greatest and most beautiful ship. In terms of service, the French Line matched Cunard in most respects and exceeded them in a few. The fare onboard was generally regarded as superior unless one detested French cuisine.
But without a running mate, the French Line's threat to Cunard was limited. To run a weekly schedule to New York, the French Line relied on two other slower ships: the aging and quite laughable De Grasse (which carried a mere 39 1st class passengers to maximize space for the tourist class) and the sleek and ever-popular Ile de France. This was mostly because the French Line had chosen to place all their new motor ships on Mediterranean routes. The situation was not improved until Pasteur was rebuilt in 1959 for northern routes (where she served the Canada route for the warmer six months and the US during the other six). But this effectively meant surrendering supremacy in the North Atlantic to Cunard.
In terms of overall popularity (most of the passengers were Anglo-American), 1st class passengers were only about equally likely to choose between Cunard's Queens and the French Line's Normandie and Ile de France. But to Cunard's chagrin, the wealthiest clients often went with the French Line (if it fit their schedule and they could choose between the two) as they had superior suites for the top-end passengers. But since the French Line were famous for providing private washrooms for all its passengers in both first and tourist class, the French held an even greater advantage over the second class passenger market who often preferred to travel tourist on the French Line than Cunard's cabin second class. To remedy this, Cunard was forced to pay for extensive modification of cabin class staterooms in the mid 1950s to install washrooms in most of them. But this had the disadvantage of cutting their number: in the end Queen Mary carried only 620 cabin class and Queen Elizabeth 590.
However, the French were also famous for running exclusively two-class ships. Which meant that third class was where Cunard's dominance was most pronounced and evident. Nearly all tourist (3rd) class cabins on both Queens were booked for every single crossing regardless of the season as Cunard offered unbeatable prices for the lower-end market of passengers.
Apart from Cunard and the French, the third major player was the US Lines with the Europa and America, both excellent ships but America was too slow to act as a running mate to Europa. After Washington resumed her civilian career in 1953, the Americans too possessed a three ship weekly service. But in the end, the Americans never quite managed to match the service of the French and British, which people put on Americans' nature of practicality. Holland America Lines was the fourth major liner company, but despite beautiful ships like Nieuw Amsterdam and Rotterdam, they only travelled at a service speed of 21 knots and neither could achieve a five day crossing.
In 1961, the French Line shook up the complacent transatlantic market with Bretagne, a ship designed with the most modern technology and geared at dominating the tourist (2nd) class market. It succeeded in this respect. In all, the main advantage Cunard held over the French was punctuality due to their two ship service. Thus, it was no surprise to anyone except Cunard when a considerable number of their cabin (second) class passengers deserted them to travel on the French Line's Bretagne and Normandie. It was in all a total disaster for Cunard who were losing both first and cabin class passengers to the French Line at a critical time when jets were taking away more and more well-paying customers.
Plus with Cunard's Queens being relatively fuel inefficient (1000 tons/24 hours) next to Normandie (less than 900 tons) and certainly Bretagne (570 tons), the French Line had an inherent cost advantage. They chose to keep ticket prices for 1st and tourist class passengers linked to Cunard's Queens (1st and cabin (2nd) class). Cunard's response was offering free Turkish baths service for 1st class passengers. All 1st class passengers onboard Cunard's Queens from 1962 onwards had a once per journey access to a unique service that only Cunard provided. The French Line never had turkish baths on their ships. In addition cabin (2nd) class passengers were given a once per journey paid for visit to the hairdresser's and beauty parlour for men and women.
The French responded in 1963 with the same offer onboard Normandie for both 1st and tourist class passengers but not Bretagne as she was the more popular ship at the moment and Bretagne did not have separate hair and beauty parlour facilities for 1st and tourist class. The expansion of free on-board services ultimately slowed down jet aircraft's takeover of well-paying passengers in the 1960s and benefited both Cunard and the French Line.
In the end, Cunard tried but quickly abandoned the free table wine policy of the French Line since it cut deeply into their alcohol profits. Thus, superior competition and jet planes taking away an increasing number of passengers forced Cunard to abandon the two-ship service in 1964 in order to save the company. This was done to preserve funds to build a replacement for both Cunard's Queens that could compete in the new jet age. Learning lessons from the French, Mauretania had been given 2 outdoor pools and converted into a two class ship (merging cabin (2nd) and tourist (3rd) areas) and her interiors updated and air-conditioning installed throughout. She was also painted green and began service on the Italy-South America route starting in 1963 operated by a primarily Italian and Spanish speaking crew. This was a successful move by Cunard and Mauretania would serve another ten years.
Mauretania bound for South America
The new Catholic chapel onboard Mauretania
Tourist class veranda
Tourist class ballroom
Cinema
Now Queen Elizabeth underwent a similar transformation in 1964 due to competition from the French Line in the North Atlantic and unprofitability. She would become a success on the Italy-US route and serve from 1965-1975. The byproduct of this was the Italian Line was further decimated by Cunard’s successful entry into Mediterranean service with their “green ships”. Mauretania and Queen Elizabeth had been painted green to distinguish them from the French Line’s all-white ships on the Mediterranean and the Italian Lines’ traditional black hull and white superstructure.
The new ballroom of RMS Queen Elizabeth for tourist class passengers
Queen Elizabeth's new Catholic chapel
In 1968, Cunard's former cruise ship Caronia was modified to become a bulk immigrant carrier to Australia. Her beautiful public rooms were left untouched despite the fact that she was previously a cruise ship catered to the wealthy. However, her passenger cabin density was nearly doubled using bunk beds so she carried 1700 passengers in total for the journey from Britain to Italy to Australia. She proved a success as new immigrants enjoyed her memorable luxury before settling in a new country. However, on the return journey home, her passenger capacity was reduced to 932 by folding up the bunk beds since she carried higher paying retirees visiting relatives or on holiday in Europe. She was finally retired in 1979.
Apart from Cunard's troubles, all the other lines had begun pulling out in the 1960s due to competition from jet aircraft. US Lines' Europa was retired in 1961 and America sold in 1964. Holland America Lines had slower and fuel efficient ships and continued to run a weekly three ship service using Nieuw Amsterdam, Rotterdam, and Statendam. But by 1965, the only punctual two-ship service on the North Atlantic (and only for the six warmer months of the year) was operated by the French Line's Normandie and Bretagne. And this was only because Normandie's transatlantic operations had been explicitly guaranteed by the French govt. Cunard's Queen Mary would remain on the North Atlantic until her retirement in 1967.
However if the British and Americans had to pick a second rival line next to Cunard, it would have to be the French Line. This was primarily due to Normandie widely regarded as grandest ship ever built. If Cunard had regularity of service with two fast and large ships, the fastest ship and the largest ship, the Normandie was a close second in both of these respects but widely regarded as the greatest and most beautiful ship. In terms of service, the French Line matched Cunard in most respects and exceeded them in a few. The fare onboard was generally regarded as superior unless one detested French cuisine.
But without a running mate, the French Line's threat to Cunard was limited. To run a weekly schedule to New York, the French Line relied on two other slower ships: the aging and quite laughable De Grasse (which carried a mere 39 1st class passengers to maximize space for the tourist class) and the sleek and ever-popular Ile de France. This was mostly because the French Line had chosen to place all their new motor ships on Mediterranean routes. The situation was not improved until Pasteur was rebuilt in 1959 for northern routes (where she served the Canada route for the warmer six months and the US during the other six). But this effectively meant surrendering supremacy in the North Atlantic to Cunard.
In terms of overall popularity (most of the passengers were Anglo-American), 1st class passengers were only about equally likely to choose between Cunard's Queens and the French Line's Normandie and Ile de France. But to Cunard's chagrin, the wealthiest clients often went with the French Line (if it fit their schedule and they could choose between the two) as they had superior suites for the top-end passengers. But since the French Line were famous for providing private washrooms for all its passengers in both first and tourist class, the French held an even greater advantage over the second class passenger market who often preferred to travel tourist on the French Line than Cunard's cabin second class. To remedy this, Cunard was forced to pay for extensive modification of cabin class staterooms in the mid 1950s to install washrooms in most of them. But this had the disadvantage of cutting their number: in the end Queen Mary carried only 620 cabin class and Queen Elizabeth 590.
However, the French were also famous for running exclusively two-class ships. Which meant that third class was where Cunard's dominance was most pronounced and evident. Nearly all tourist (3rd) class cabins on both Queens were booked for every single crossing regardless of the season as Cunard offered unbeatable prices for the lower-end market of passengers.
Apart from Cunard and the French, the third major player was the US Lines with the Europa and America, both excellent ships but America was too slow to act as a running mate to Europa. After Washington resumed her civilian career in 1953, the Americans too possessed a three ship weekly service. But in the end, the Americans never quite managed to match the service of the French and British, which people put on Americans' nature of practicality. Holland America Lines was the fourth major liner company, but despite beautiful ships like Nieuw Amsterdam and Rotterdam, they only travelled at a service speed of 21 knots and neither could achieve a five day crossing.
In 1961, the French Line shook up the complacent transatlantic market with Bretagne, a ship designed with the most modern technology and geared at dominating the tourist (2nd) class market. It succeeded in this respect. In all, the main advantage Cunard held over the French was punctuality due to their two ship service. Thus, it was no surprise to anyone except Cunard when a considerable number of their cabin (second) class passengers deserted them to travel on the French Line's Bretagne and Normandie. It was in all a total disaster for Cunard who were losing both first and cabin class passengers to the French Line at a critical time when jets were taking away more and more well-paying customers.
Plus with Cunard's Queens being relatively fuel inefficient (1000 tons/24 hours) next to Normandie (less than 900 tons) and certainly Bretagne (570 tons), the French Line had an inherent cost advantage. They chose to keep ticket prices for 1st and tourist class passengers linked to Cunard's Queens (1st and cabin (2nd) class). Cunard's response was offering free Turkish baths service for 1st class passengers. All 1st class passengers onboard Cunard's Queens from 1962 onwards had a once per journey access to a unique service that only Cunard provided. The French Line never had turkish baths on their ships. In addition cabin (2nd) class passengers were given a once per journey paid for visit to the hairdresser's and beauty parlour for men and women.
The French responded in 1963 with the same offer onboard Normandie for both 1st and tourist class passengers but not Bretagne as she was the more popular ship at the moment and Bretagne did not have separate hair and beauty parlour facilities for 1st and tourist class. The expansion of free on-board services ultimately slowed down jet aircraft's takeover of well-paying passengers in the 1960s and benefited both Cunard and the French Line.
In the end, Cunard tried but quickly abandoned the free table wine policy of the French Line since it cut deeply into their alcohol profits. Thus, superior competition and jet planes taking away an increasing number of passengers forced Cunard to abandon the two-ship service in 1964 in order to save the company. This was done to preserve funds to build a replacement for both Cunard's Queens that could compete in the new jet age. Learning lessons from the French, Mauretania had been given 2 outdoor pools and converted into a two class ship (merging cabin (2nd) and tourist (3rd) areas) and her interiors updated and air-conditioning installed throughout. She was also painted green and began service on the Italy-South America route starting in 1963 operated by a primarily Italian and Spanish speaking crew. This was a successful move by Cunard and Mauretania would serve another ten years.
Mauretania bound for South America
The new Catholic chapel onboard Mauretania
Tourist class veranda
Tourist class ballroom
Cinema
Now Queen Elizabeth underwent a similar transformation in 1964 due to competition from the French Line in the North Atlantic and unprofitability. She would become a success on the Italy-US route and serve from 1965-1975. The byproduct of this was the Italian Line was further decimated by Cunard’s successful entry into Mediterranean service with their “green ships”. Mauretania and Queen Elizabeth had been painted green to distinguish them from the French Line’s all-white ships on the Mediterranean and the Italian Lines’ traditional black hull and white superstructure.
The new ballroom of RMS Queen Elizabeth for tourist class passengers
Queen Elizabeth's new Catholic chapel
In 1968, Cunard's former cruise ship Caronia was modified to become a bulk immigrant carrier to Australia. Her beautiful public rooms were left untouched despite the fact that she was previously a cruise ship catered to the wealthy. However, her passenger cabin density was nearly doubled using bunk beds so she carried 1700 passengers in total for the journey from Britain to Italy to Australia. She proved a success as new immigrants enjoyed her memorable luxury before settling in a new country. However, on the return journey home, her passenger capacity was reduced to 932 by folding up the bunk beds since she carried higher paying retirees visiting relatives or on holiday in Europe. She was finally retired in 1979.
Apart from Cunard's troubles, all the other lines had begun pulling out in the 1960s due to competition from jet aircraft. US Lines' Europa was retired in 1961 and America sold in 1964. Holland America Lines had slower and fuel efficient ships and continued to run a weekly three ship service using Nieuw Amsterdam, Rotterdam, and Statendam. But by 1965, the only punctual two-ship service on the North Atlantic (and only for the six warmer months of the year) was operated by the French Line's Normandie and Bretagne. And this was only because Normandie's transatlantic operations had been explicitly guaranteed by the French govt. Cunard's Queen Mary would remain on the North Atlantic until her retirement in 1967.
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My thought was the power on-board Normandie looked like it was coming from her plant, but the engines turning and such was mostly for show so tourists got a glimpse into the life of a working ship- the real power is provided by generators hidden in a forward hold who- while capable of running the resort, are in turn fed from shore. Tourists are of course never told this.
Queen Mary is similar, but anyone with some knowledge knows she simply does not have enough boilers fired up to power her.
Is QM goes in '67 what is Cunard's replacement id QE is on the Med run?
What happened to White Star's MV Britannic and Georgic btw? I'd like to think they are serving on the New Zealand - Australia run or similar.
1) QE2 is pushed early by a year due to the urgency of competing with Bretagne/French Line
2) Britannic and Georgic are too old. By the late 50s they only have several years realistic service and need expensive modification to convert to at least two class accommodation + update interiors, outdoor pool, ect. Also, their speed of 18 knots is a bit slow. I imagine that's why Mauretania got the nod while Georgic and Britannic got scrapped OTL. At best they could serve as bulk (really cheap) immigrant carriers, but that's not really lucrative enough to warrant modification and there are younger ships available.
Q4
Planning for the future QE2 had begun as early as 1961 with the Q3 concept which was basically a modernized version of the Cunard Queens that would have updated interiors and more fuel efficiency. But this concept was thrown out after seeing Bretagne and the design process began all over again. Notably, Cunard's directors saw the space-saving potential of having only dual steam turbines and propellers and quickly realized they would need all that extra space saved. One of Bretagne's most popular features was her magrodome so this design feature was incorporated into the new Q4 concept.
In particular however, Bretagne had demonstrated to Cunard how outdated the three class system of passenger accommodation was, and all the efficiency gains that could be realized from having a two-class ship with a high degree of interchangeability and overlap in shared public spaces. It was also what the public now expected for all new ships starting with Rotterdam in 1959 and now Bretagne. Thus Cunard quickly sided with the progressives who endorsed a "hotel concept" method of thinking about ship design rather than the traditional "ship/transportation-based" paradigm.
As a hotel, Q4 needed to have a standard of rooms and services comparable to a modern luxury hotel. As such, Cunard sought to maximize as much shared space between the two classes as possible going far beyond Bretagne and stretching conference rules to the maximum. But the selling point would be the ocean of course. As such, Cunard's Q4 would have balcony suites as well as restaurants with sea views for passengers to enjoy. Free onboard services had proven extremely popular for passengers and thus Q4 would have a purpose-built onboard spa that 1st class passengers could use for free once per journey. Tourist class passengers were not forgotten and were given the same Turkish baths service that 1st class passengers once enjoyed for free on the Queen Mary and Elizabeth.
But it was the space offered in private staterooms that proved perhaps the most revolutionary. Just like in Bretagne, there were no bunk beds onboard ship even in tourist class cabins. Just like many modern luxury hotels, all staterooms were equipped with a private jacuzzi bath that could accommodate two people as Cunard sought to ride the popular wave of new fibreglass hot tubs and sex that was sweeping across western societies at this time. Thus Q4 would be marketed as both a romantic getaway and love hotel.
Standard tourist class cabin in Q4 (2 passengers)
In addition, all staterooms would possess a television as the ship would have its own tv station and programming. All this took space and the end result was Q4 stretched to 323 m in length, just beating out Bretagne to capture the title of the "world's longest ship" and had a beam of 35 m. The great success and influence of Bretagne to Q4 extended to size. It gave Cunard the hope that ocean liners remained viable and that they needed to build the largest ship possible to offer the best possible onboard hotel service. Thus they chose to build a ship of a similar size and proportion and passed up the convenience of travelling through the Panama canal which would happen only once per year at most otherwise, during world cruises.
In addition, Cunard had to contend with the hopes and aspirations of British maritime enthusiasts and patriots who insisted on a ship as large and magnificent as the Bretagne. The situation was not unlike that of the 1930s when Queen Mary had been completed a year after Normandie due to her construction being stalled by the Depression. As such, Cunard had to be bailed out by the British govt to complete Q4 which costed a staggering 80 million USD in the end. With the feverish hopes of a nation elevated once again, Q4 represented the pride of all of Britain's maritime history and the continuation of a long and storied line of passenger ships. Cunard hoped to ride this wave of enthusiasm as they had with the Queen Mary in the 1930s who turned out to be a great success and rival to Normandie.
But this also meant contending with elevated expectations and since Cunard's future depended on it, they could not afford to disappoint. Thus under great pressure and expectations, they produced a space age design masterpiece with such progressive trends that it made Bretagne (who had only entered service six years earlier and had been seen as radical) seem conservative and even reactionary to many passengers. This was seen as an indication of how fast things were changing in the decade, the early 60s were an entirely different world and atmosphere compared to the late 60s. Such designs resonated with a society that was enraptured with space exploration and technological progress of that time.
To deal with competition, Bretagne had jacuzzi baths installed in all staterooms in response, but no televisions. The French Line looked down upon television culture as a whole considering it to be incompatible with the kind of sophisticated ocean liner atmosphere that they wanted to cultivate. 1st class passengers were also offered free spa services in the 1st class indoor pool, but Bretagne by comparison did not have its own purpose-built onboard spa.
In particular however, Bretagne had demonstrated to Cunard how outdated the three class system of passenger accommodation was, and all the efficiency gains that could be realized from having a two-class ship with a high degree of interchangeability and overlap in shared public spaces. It was also what the public now expected for all new ships starting with Rotterdam in 1959 and now Bretagne. Thus Cunard quickly sided with the progressives who endorsed a "hotel concept" method of thinking about ship design rather than the traditional "ship/transportation-based" paradigm.
As a hotel, Q4 needed to have a standard of rooms and services comparable to a modern luxury hotel. As such, Cunard sought to maximize as much shared space between the two classes as possible going far beyond Bretagne and stretching conference rules to the maximum. But the selling point would be the ocean of course. As such, Cunard's Q4 would have balcony suites as well as restaurants with sea views for passengers to enjoy. Free onboard services had proven extremely popular for passengers and thus Q4 would have a purpose-built onboard spa that 1st class passengers could use for free once per journey. Tourist class passengers were not forgotten and were given the same Turkish baths service that 1st class passengers once enjoyed for free on the Queen Mary and Elizabeth.
But it was the space offered in private staterooms that proved perhaps the most revolutionary. Just like in Bretagne, there were no bunk beds onboard ship even in tourist class cabins. Just like many modern luxury hotels, all staterooms were equipped with a private jacuzzi bath that could accommodate two people as Cunard sought to ride the popular wave of new fibreglass hot tubs and sex that was sweeping across western societies at this time. Thus Q4 would be marketed as both a romantic getaway and love hotel.
Standard tourist class cabin in Q4 (2 passengers)
In addition, all staterooms would possess a television as the ship would have its own tv station and programming. All this took space and the end result was Q4 stretched to 323 m in length, just beating out Bretagne to capture the title of the "world's longest ship" and had a beam of 35 m. The great success and influence of Bretagne to Q4 extended to size. It gave Cunard the hope that ocean liners remained viable and that they needed to build the largest ship possible to offer the best possible onboard hotel service. Thus they chose to build a ship of a similar size and proportion and passed up the convenience of travelling through the Panama canal which would happen only once per year at most otherwise, during world cruises.
In addition, Cunard had to contend with the hopes and aspirations of British maritime enthusiasts and patriots who insisted on a ship as large and magnificent as the Bretagne. The situation was not unlike that of the 1930s when Queen Mary had been completed a year after Normandie due to her construction being stalled by the Depression. As such, Cunard had to be bailed out by the British govt to complete Q4 which costed a staggering 80 million USD in the end. With the feverish hopes of a nation elevated once again, Q4 represented the pride of all of Britain's maritime history and the continuation of a long and storied line of passenger ships. Cunard hoped to ride this wave of enthusiasm as they had with the Queen Mary in the 1930s who turned out to be a great success and rival to Normandie.
But this also meant contending with elevated expectations and since Cunard's future depended on it, they could not afford to disappoint. Thus under great pressure and expectations, they produced a space age design masterpiece with such progressive trends that it made Bretagne (who had only entered service six years earlier and had been seen as radical) seem conservative and even reactionary to many passengers. This was seen as an indication of how fast things were changing in the decade, the early 60s were an entirely different world and atmosphere compared to the late 60s. Such designs resonated with a society that was enraptured with space exploration and technological progress of that time.
To deal with competition, Bretagne had jacuzzi baths installed in all staterooms in response, but no televisions. The French Line looked down upon television culture as a whole considering it to be incompatible with the kind of sophisticated ocean liner atmosphere that they wanted to cultivate. 1st class passengers were also offered free spa services in the 1st class indoor pool, but Bretagne by comparison did not have its own purpose-built onboard spa.
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Although Britannic and Georgic are not suitable, I thought of another ship that is suitable: the Caronia/green goddess. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Caronia_(1947) All you need to do is install bunk beds, double her passenger capacity and she can serve literally ten more years. Not sure why Cunard didn't do this OTL but decided to sell her in 1968.
I added that note plus new pictures in the previous post.
It's 100 but they are small 1930s era cars. For modern cars of the 1960s, probably around 60-70.
QE2 Brochure (p1)
QE2 boasts a magnificent royal theatre seating 500 combining both metallic and mahogany furnishings and decorated in a futuristic style that nevertheless possesses a truly royal atmosphere. Permission to use the royal prefix was given by QE2's royal namesake herself. Also used as a church and conference room.
The theatre bar is a lively place both night and day and is a convenient pre-Theatre meeting place as well as intimate night spot.
The card room is a cool and tranquil setting for concentration.
While the 736 club's black setting is the ship's nightclub where one can dance the hours away open late at night.
Daytime shopping at the largest luxury store afloat stocked with Britain's finest brands.
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QE2 Brochure (p2)
The Look Out observation bar is open to tourist class passengers and offers them the same view as the captain of the bridge at the front of the ship.
The sundeck offers hours of entertaining deck games steeped with history for tourist class passengers to try.
Passengers can then head over to the funnel bar underneath the ship's single pencil-shape funnel for refreshments and relaxation.
"Double Room, otherwise known as the tourist class lounge, the biggest public room afloat, is one of the most important entertainment areas in the ship. Its dramatic impact lies in its size—it seats 800 on its two levels—and in the fact that it is furnished entirely in shades of red, from plum to scarlet. Seats of scarlet tweed, plum leather and puce suede provide a constant interplay of shades and textures. The colours are picked up by walls of soft, silver anodised aluminium which cast back a flattering glow on the linen textured Formica specially developed for QE2. The designer, Jon Bannenberg, linked the two levels with a great stainless steel staircase, and gave the circular band-stand a pull-out apron stage for the nightly floorshows."
The two levels (known as the Double Up and Double Down) both have their own bars.
Double Down
Double Up.
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About the same I reckon. There will be other smaller public rooms however for both 1st and tourist class. The tourist class lounge is basically same as OTL but a little wider as the ship has a 3m longer beam.
QE2 Brochure (p3)
Rest assured, children and teenagers are well provided for.
Everything in the Children's Room is practically indestructible. There are no "Don'ts." Cunard has consulted with the highest experts on how children play productively and educationally to create a radically different kind of children's room than you will find on any other ship of the past.
This includes a large open space set aside for an indoor playground where children can play tag and all sorts of physical games.
The teenage room or Jukes Box has blasting music all the time and plenty of arcade amusements and machines to keep them busy. It is an entirely soundproof room which allows for normal functions to carry on outside.
The spacious children's dining room which is located just next door.
Teenagers also have their own dining room so they can dine exclusively with their peers if they wish.
Everything in the Children's Room is practically indestructible. There are no "Don'ts." Cunard has consulted with the highest experts on how children play productively and educationally to create a radically different kind of children's room than you will find on any other ship of the past.
This includes a large open space set aside for an indoor playground where children can play tag and all sorts of physical games.
The teenage room or Jukes Box has blasting music all the time and plenty of arcade amusements and machines to keep them busy. It is an entirely soundproof room which allows for normal functions to carry on outside.
The spacious children's dining room which is located just next door.
Teenagers also have their own dining room so they can dine exclusively with their peers if they wish.
QE2 Brochure (p4)
QE2 has a very trendy coffee shop and is an excellent spot for you to get your coffee fix as well as refreshments both night and day.
Popular with young people during the evenings
And of course the coffee shop is located right next to the conference room for business meetings with five telephone booths.
The relaxing enclosed promenade onboard QE2 for tourist class passengers.
The library is cool and still, a place of deep leather sofas, with slatted blinds to counter sunlight.
The reading room next door.
Popular with young people during the evenings
And of course the coffee shop is located right next to the conference room for business meetings with five telephone booths.
The relaxing enclosed promenade onboard QE2 for tourist class passengers.
| The Beauty Salon by Steiner of London provides a comprehensive hairdressing and beauty service. |
The library is cool and still, a place of deep leather sofas, with slatted blinds to counter sunlight.
The reading room next door.
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QE2 Brochure (p5)
QE2 hosts plenty of art onboard ship on loan from the National Gallery as well as new works by aspiring and established artists.
The tourist class gallery usually hosts new works by aspiring artists on display.
This is the entrance to the main art gallery open to both first and tourist class passengers.
Synagogue
The refreshing tourist class indoor swimming pool. The bright red columns are changing cubicles and showers.
Next to the swimming pool are the turkish baths open for free to tourist class passengers. Every passenger travelling tourist class will have an appointed time where they will be able to use this facility.
The outdoor tourist class pool and lido area. Note the artificial turf around the pool and the design of the lido that ensures passengers are sheltered from the wind.
The tourist class gallery usually hosts new works by aspiring artists on display.
This is the entrance to the main art gallery open to both first and tourist class passengers.
Synagogue
The refreshing tourist class indoor swimming pool. The bright red columns are changing cubicles and showers.
Next to the swimming pool are the turkish baths open for free to tourist class passengers. Every passenger travelling tourist class will have an appointed time where they will be able to use this facility.
The outdoor tourist class pool and lido area. Note the artificial turf around the pool and the design of the lido that ensures passengers are sheltered from the wind.
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That's a neat idea, I hope guests are provided with a waterproof/resistant bag to put their stuff in if the same 'pod' is shower and change-room both.