Make Russia considered part of the West

[alexmilman]

it is very easy to make a pod to make russia "western"

just make the novgorod republic be the center of russia instead of moscow

Novgorod republic did conduct trade with the Hanseatic cities but it was not more "western" than Muscovite state: the foreigners had been arriving to Novgorod, stayed in a specially allocated block of the city, and after exchanging the goods leaving without any serious impact upon the local life and political system. Nothing too original, "western" or advanced (which presumably supposed to be a trademark of the "West") in the political system: typical oligarchy controlled by the local boyars and Novgorodian bishop. People assembly, "veche" existed in most Russian cities, it just remained in existence for a longer time in Novgorod, and its most remarkable feature was a consensus. In this specific area they were well ahead of their contemporaries and even successfully solved a problem from which sejms of the PLC suffered all the way to the XVIII: disagreements had been resolved by a fight during which members of the losing side had been thrown into the river (if they were lucky: being thrown down from a bell tower or city wall were distinct options) thus guaranteeing a consensus in a final vote.

a russian state built on trade and the separation of powers instead of conquest and autocracy will be a land based uk of sorts and probably the most powerful nation worldwide in this TL

Even a cursory look at the map would tell you that for quite a while Novgorod had been controlling a considerably greater territory (all Russian North) than Princedom of Moscow and this more or less assumes a conquest (not to mention never-ending border wars with pretty much all neighbors). Separation of powers is an interesting notion but, short of the separation of the secular and religious powers not too much of it to be seen. Autocracy, indeed, was not quite there but neither was a Jeffersonian democracy.

As for the UK, the term belongs to the XVIII (officially, XIX) century and during the "Novgorodian times" England was a typical autocratic state. Quite aggressive one (attempts to conquer Scotland, conquest of Ireland, 100YW).

 

[werewolf]

Novgorod republic did conduct trade with the Hanseatic cities but it was not more "western" than Muscovite state: the foreigners had been arriving to Novgorod, stayed in a specially allocated block of the city, and after exchanging the goods leaving without any serious impact upon the local life and political system. Nothing too original, "western" or advanced (which presumably supposed to be a trademark of the "West") in the political system: typical oligarchy controlled by the local boyars and Novgorodian bishop. People assembly, "veche" existed in most Russian cities, it just remained in existence for a longer time in Novgorod, and its most remarkable feature was a consensus. In this specific area they were well ahead of their contemporaries and even successfully solved a problem from which sejms of the PLC suffered all the way to the XVIII: disagreements had been resolved by a fight during which members of the losing side had been thrown into the river (if they were lucky: being thrown down from a bell tower or city wall were distinct options) thus guaranteeing a consensus in a final vote.


Even a cursory look at the map would tell you that for quite a while Novgorod had been controlling a considerably greater territory (all Russian North) than Princedom of Moscow and this more or less assumes a conquest (not to mention never-ending border wars with pretty much all neighbors). Separation of powers is an interesting notion but, short of the separation of the secular and religious powers not too much of it to be seen. Autocracy, indeed, was not quite there but neither was a Jeffersonian democracy.

As for the UK, the term belongs to the XVIII (officially, XIX) century and during the "Novgorodian times" England was a typical autocratic state. Quite aggressive one (attempts to conquer Scotland, conquest of Ireland, 100YW).

let's imagine a pod in which a smart warrior merchant comes to power in novgorod and he makes the swedes a good long term deal a monopoly for the sale and transport of novgorodian timber grain and fur in exchange for swedish weapons and german mercenary corps

with this bigger better armed semi professional army the novgorodians defeat moscow and take some of its northern and western territory in the peace settlement

after a generation of consolidation and reform the northern and western russian princedoms make their own trade league led by novgorod with its leader the "vozd" as the defender of all free rus (as opposed to the mongol slaves in moscow)

this new "russian federation" will be the enemy of poland and lithuania and be friends with the swedes and the germans

moscow centralization and the absolute power of the monarch compared with the nobles and traders was and is russia's fatal flaw

a novgorod led russia will have all the predisposition to make it own "magna carta" or some other similar document limiting the power of the ruler

the dependence on trade income will also force rationalization and competition inside russia

 

[alexmilman]

let's imagine a pod in which a smart warrior merchant comes to power in novgorod and he makes the swedes a good long term deal a monopoly for the sale and transport of novgorodian timber grain and fur in exchange for swedish weapons and german mercenary corps

I have no idea which time frame you are talking about because the "proposals" look as a combination of the things separated by few centuries. Presumably, we are talking about the Middle Ages, prior to the raise of the Muscovite state, because Ivan III put an end to Novgorod's independence. OTOH, it could not be too early because (a) "Moscow" would not be a factor and (b) the Golden Horde would not allow Novgorodian conquest of Russia.

A naive question: how much do you know about Novgorod?

"Coming to power" in Novgorod was not establishing a dictatorship. Even the strong figure like Alexander Nevsky (backed up by a strong military force, the local elite and Batu's friendship) could not make it. "Posadnik", a formal head of the civic administration, had limited power and could be easily replaced.

Then, the whole thing about the Swedes is not realistic because traditional connections were with the Hanseatic cities, not Sweden. So that "merchant warrior" would be overthrown as soon as it becomes known that he is trying to damage city's well-being. Not sure if and why medieval Sweden would be interested in timber and even less sure that Novgorod was a major grain supplier (AFAIK, the grain exports from Tsardom started picking up only at the time of Tsar Alexey).

Now, the part about the German mercenaries. Not going to work: the whole idea of the Novgorodian state was NOT to have a strong military power in ANYBODY's hands. The only mercenary allowed was Novgorodian prince with his band and the city could replace him at will. Novgorodian city militia was a considerably strong military factor (until more modern time) and there were also contingents raised by the estate owners from the Novgorodian territories. German mercenaries would not be permitted just because they'd allow a dictatorship of their boss.

In the later time when the notions of "semi-professional" (why not "completely professional") armies started making sense, a possibility of Russian consolidation around Novgorod was completely gone (not sure if it ever existed). Anyway, to hire an army big enough to completely defeat Muscovite state would be unrealistic.

"Swedish weapons" all the way to the early modern time were not a token of a superiority. Actually, it was said that the Novgorodians lost so easily to Ivan III because their militia donned "western" style heavy armor and the only thing Tatars of the Muscovite advance detachment had to do was to shot their horses. Getting German mercenaries from Sweden is of course an interesting idea.

BTW, during the Time of the Troubles Novgorod was for years under Swedish occupation and population seemingly did not like it too much.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

it is very easy to make a pod to make russia "western"

just make the novgorod republic be the center of russia instead of moscow

a russian state built on trade and the separation of powers instead of conquest and autocracy will be a land based uk of sorts and probably the most powerful nation worldwide in this TL

I mean, yes and no.

I think you're right, Novgorod would be more Western (physically too), but it has two major geographic issues.

1) It is trapped by its own rivers. Unless it relocated the capital of the Novgorod Republic, or set up a new port city (i.e. built a St. Petersburg analogue), its going to be isolated by how much it can ship. I genuinely think this will lead to a relocation of the capital if it becomes the premier power of Russia.

2) Isolated by Denmark. Copenhagen would be a crown jewel for Novgorod. The Baltic States would be under FAR more pressure ITTL IMO. Working to support Swedish independence might help in the short run, but in the long run the Republic would need to secure the Oresund, allowing it to freely access the North Sea and beyond. Whether it does it diplomatically, or does so by military force is up for debate, but it is a geopolitical reality IMO.

As for a PoD? Moscovy loses big to the Golden Horde, and as a result Novgorod establishes itself as the prime Russian power.

 

[alexmilman]

I mean, yes and no.

I think you're right, Novgorod would be more Western (physically too), but it has two major geographic issues.

1) It is trapped by its own rivers. Unless it relocated the capital of the Novgorod Republic, or set up a new port city (i.e. built a St. Petersburg analogue), its going to be isolated by how much it can ship. I genuinely think this will lead to a relocation of the capital if it becomes the premier power of Russia.

Well, Russia became united with the capital far away from any sea coast and St-Petersburg was more or less a folly of not quite "stable" ruler which added little to the <whatever>: by the time it became operational Russia already possessed the major ports of Riga and Revel.

As for the "shipping" part: Novgorod was "shipping" nothing regardless of having the sea coast access. The Hanseatic traders had been unloading their goods on the coast and the Novgorodian boats had been carrying these goods up rivers and lake to Novgorod to the German quarter. Ditto, in a reverse order for carrying the goods from Novgorod. No noticeable Russian interest in the sea trade (all the way to the late XVIII century). Which more or less kills your #2 about Denmark.

As for a PoD? Moscovy loses big to the Golden Horde, and as a result Novgorod establishes itself as the prime Russian power.

By the time the "losing" thing would start making sense, it was too late for the Golden Horde (BTW, Moscow was "losing big" after it became the leading Russian principality) to eliminate it. And there never was a chance for Novgorod to became anything greater than it was at its peak of power: a big merchant republic with a little political clout outside its territory and no military power to expand.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Well, Russia became united with the capital far away from any sea coast and St-Petersburg was more or less a folly of not quite "stable" ruler which added little to the <whatever>: by the time it became operational Russia already possessed the major ports of Riga and Revel.

As for the "shipping" part: Novgorod was "shipping" nothing regardless of having the sea coast access. The Hanseatic traders had been unloading their goods on the coast and the Novgorodian boats had been carrying these goods up rivers and lake to Novgorod to the German quarter. Ditto, in a reverse order for carrying the goods from Novgorod. No noticeable Russian interest in the sea trade (all the way to the late XVIII century). Which more or less kills your #2 about Denmark.

I don't think I've ever heard Peter the Great referred to as not quite "stable", but OK.

Right, and as they declined in Germany, the Hansa becomes less relevant, meaning that Lord Novgorod may need to start sending out their own merchants to maintain what was already there. The idea of a Republican, more Mercantile Russia isn't off the table with a Novgorod-centred Russia rather than a Moscovite one - different states, philosophies, institutions. As a result the entire history of Russia after the end of Novgorod cannot simply be used to disregard a possibility. However, its major strategic desire for warm-water ports suggests they indeed had interest in the sea, and certainly in exporting their goods, so an interest in being the merchants isn't at all an unreasonable extrapolation, especially as before the rise of the Hansa they already did, at least within the Baltic.

As a result, if this means that Denmark is seen as a blockage to furthering the goals of Lord Novgorod, then it becomes a target.

By the time the "losing" thing would start making sense, it was too late for the Golden Horde (BTW, Moscow was "losing big" after it became the leading Russian principality) to eliminate it. And there never was a chance for Novgorod to became anything greater than it was at its peak of power: a big merchant republic with a little political clout outside its territory and no military power to expand.

Right, so the capital of the Rus' people prior to Kiev, that is centuries older than Moscovy, which itself started off as a trade outpost in the 13th century cannot possibly become the leading Russian Principality. Right, that doesn't sound like drivel at all. Moscovy can't be repeatedly burned to the ground by rivals, like it was in 1238, nope. Totally inevitable.

You want another PoD that means that Moscovy doesn't rise, and allows Novgorod to be the leading Russian Principality? Novgorod forms an alliance with Uzbeg Khan rather than Moscovy, or Tver does, or any of the other Russian cities. Novgorod hires mercenaries to secure Moscovy when it is weaker, bolstering its trade networks, and ensuring a stable Russia for the Golden Horde which then means Novgorod is seen as a shelter during the Mongol Period.

Also, a point on the whole West/East thing.

You can have a PoD pre-1900 that has repercussions AFTER 1900. As such, making sure Russia is so tightly coupled it would be absurd to try and separate it from "The West" would be part of that aim. Heck, a merchant republic that leans heavily on an alliance with Britain to ensure open access to the North Sea ties the two together VERY tightly.

 

[alexmilman]

I don't think I've ever heard Peter the Great referred to as not quite "stable", but OK.

He was suffering from <forget the name of disease> that makes mental concentration difficult and "favors" physical activities.

Right, and as they declined in Germany, the Hansa becomes less relevant, meaning that Lord Novgorod may need to start sending out their own merchants to maintain what was already there.

An idea not being supported by anything besides wishful thinking. There was no track record of the Novgorodian wish to start a naval trade. They did not even built any port facilities on a part of the Baltic coast they owned. They did not have any shipbuilding experience, etc.

The idea of a Republican, more Mercantile Russia isn't off the table with a Novgorod-centred Russia rather than a Moscovite one

Just keep repeating the same thing based strictly upon an assumption that it is "logical" does not make it more realistic. Medieval Rus was not "republican" and could not become one: too many factors were going against this. With the exception of Novgorod and Pskov, the Russian states had "standard" feudal structures and their social development was going along the same lines (with the adjustments to the regional specifics) as in most of the rest of Europe.

How militarily weak Novgorod would manage to subdue the rest of the Russian states? This could be (and had been) done by a military force which Novgorod was lacking and by a consistent multi-generational policies which Princes of Moscow and Lithuania had and which Novgorod with its unstable governments simply could not have.

Right, so the capital of the Rus' people prior to Kiev, that is centuries older than Moscovy, which itself started off as a trade outpost in the 13th century cannot possibly become the leading Russian Principality.

Kiev was not a capital of the "republic" so analogy does not make a slightest sense.

Right, that doesn't sound like drivel at all. Moscovy can't be repeatedly burned to the ground by rivals, like it was in 1238, nope. Totally inevitable.

Raise of the Moscow as a specific center of the Russian unification was anything but inevitable and for quite a while its princes had been getting their seniority by acquiring title of "Grand Prince of Vladimir". With the same success it could be any other princedom of the Vladimir-Suzdal Rus.

You want another PoD that means that Moscovy doesn't rise, and allows Novgorod to be the leading Russian Principality? Novgorod forms an alliance with Uzbeg Khan rather than Moscovy, or Tver does, or any of the other Russian cities. Novgorod hires mercenaries to secure Moscovy when it is weaker, bolstering its trade networks, and ensuring a stable Russia for the Golden Horde which then means Novgorod is seen as a shelter during the Mongol Period.

Sight. You really don't understand the basics. "Novgorod" could not became a Grand Prince of Vladimir (the title goes to the person not a state) and rulers of the Golden Horde had been traditionalists enough not to introduce the new and confusing schema. The title could go to a prince of Ryazan or Twer and it is an open question for how long it would be held by the rulers of a specific princedom and which city will end up as a historic capital of the unified Russian state but, not being even a "principality", Novgorod would not be on the list. BTW, I suspect that by the time of Uzbek the princes of Moscow already had been rich and powerful enough to deal with any realistic competition. Anyway, there is no reason to assume that alternative winning princely line is going to be more "republican" than one of the OTL.

The story about the mercenaries is, indeed interesting but (a) Novgorod hardly had enough money to hire 20 - 30K of the German mercenaries, (b) during the Middle Ages these numbers would not be easily available, (c) there was a high chance that instead of going to war with Moscow (not the next door) these mercenaries would opt for looting Novgorod, (d) the Mongols would not take such an idea lightly because Russian princedoms had been his vassals, etc.

Also, a point on the whole West/East thing.

You can have a PoD pre-1900 that has repercussions AFTER 1900. As such, making sure Russia is so tightly coupled it would be absurd to try and separate it from "The West" would be part of that aim. Heck, a merchant republic that leans heavily on an alliance with Britain to ensure open access to the North Sea ties the two together VERY tightly.

OTL Russia was an acknowledged "European state" (which, with an adjustment to the anachronistic terminology of the thread amounts to the "West") since the early XVIII so if we are talking about the "absurdities", the attempts to claim otherwise belong to that category.

As for the alliance with Britain, OTL Russia was in almost uninterrupted alliance/trade relations with it from 1551 when the Muscovy Company was formed by Richard Chancellor, Sebastian Cabot, Sir Hugh Willoughby and several London merchants; Ivan IV opened Arkhangelsk to the Company and granted the Company privilege of trading throughout his reign without paying the standard customs fees.[36] Muscovy Company retained the monopoly in Russo-English trade until 1698. There was an interruption for the ECW - beheading of the king was not appreciated and also short interruptions during the GNW and post-Tilsit but close diplomatic and economic ties existed all the way to the mid-XIX. The CW was the 1st time when the Russians and Brits had been really fighting each other.

 

[Deleted member 114175]

An idea not being supported by anything besides wishful thinking. There was no track record of the Novgorodian wish to start a naval trade. They did not even built any port facilities on a part of the Baltic coast they owned. They did not have any shipbuilding experience, etc.

Do you have a source for that? The idea that Novgorodians had no shipbuilding experience seems to be contradicted by the existence of the Ushkuiniks.

 

[Francisco Cojuanco]

Thats largely because Philohellenes like all Romanticists ignored reality, I mean Katharevousa exists because Korais didn't like the Greek orthodox Church.

A simpler way is if the Byzantines don't fall, which would likely necessitate no Massacre of the Latins and no 4th Crusade. But if they are able to survive the current conceptions of the West would likely be quite different, and more explicitly just linked to being Christian, rather than more abstract things like Democracy and Liberalism, this would be due to the idea of Autocracy being more popular, and a greater focus on the latter parts of the Roman Empire. This is not to say that things like Philhellenism wouldn't exist, with its focus on the past, merely that the concept of the West would be less distinctly tied to Freedom, Democracy, and the Enlightenment, and more to the more vague and general concept of Christianity.

The problem with no 1204 or Massacre of the Latins is that it probably rubbishes an idea of "the West" as we know it, as opposed to simply "Christendom." Remember that the East-West distinction until very, very late was not a hard barrier!

 

[IamtheEmps]

The problem with no 1204 or Massacre of the Latins is that it probably rubbishes an idea of "the West" as we know it, as opposed to simply "Christendom." Remember that the East-West distinction until very, very late was not a hard barrier!

I did kinda mention that, but yeah in this East is basically anything non-Christian.

 

[alexmilman]

Do you have a source for that? The idea that Novgorodians had no shipbuilding experience seems to be contradicted by the existence of the Ushkuiniks.

To start with, I was talking about the "port" facilities, not shipbuilding experience in general.

Ushkuiniks had been operating on the rivers, mostly Volga, Kama and the Northern rivers of the Novgorodian territories. There were very few recorded seaborne expeditions: 1187 against Sweden, 1318 against Finland (Abo), 1320, 1323 and 1349 against Norway. Uskui, the ship, was a just a big boat 12 - 14 meters long with a rudder (no steering wheel) and a single sail (in a seagoing version) capable of going both on a river and along the sea coast (for example, in 1318 they went along the coast and them up the river). No need for port facilities and building the boats for sailing along the shore is not the same as building the seagoing merchant vessels.

The whole procedure of the Novgorodian - Hanseatic trade had been thoroughly documented by the trade agreements. Then, of course, feel yourself free to point to any Novgorodian port on the Baltic Sea.

Prior to the modern times Russian seafaring activities had been limited to the North and conducted by "Pomory", mixture of the Russians and Karelians who lived on the shores of the Northern Sea and had been engaged in the fishing, whaling, etc. They developed special type of a ship, "kotch", well suited to the sailing in the icy waters. Of course, Peter I "contributed" by enforcing construction of the Dutch-style ships, "European" but unsuited to the local conditions. Fortunately, he did not pay enough attention and the locals soon returned to their traditional ships.

 

[RGB]

I'm not sure that the doctrinal issues mattered too much and, taking into an account that for the next few centuries Russian Church had been controlled by the Greeks, I'd assume that the services had been conducted on Greek as well so why not Latin? One way or another, it is a foreign mambo jumbo.

Not a good assumption: there are no Russian-written Greek-language texts that survive. The Russian church used Church Slavonic instead, in which there are lots of documents. It was a related and somewheat mutually intelligible language to various East Slavic dialects.

This is a very very different situation from the West with Latin.

 

[werewolf]

another possible pod the pope sends the proto prussians (teutonic order) to novgorod to save "christian brothers" from the mongol barbarians

a russian civil war begins with moscow leading the loyalist side and novgorod the rebels

german heavy cavalry and swedish steel win the day (sweden is the saudi arabia of the late middle age the only place coal and iron ore are collocated in europe )

the tutons like their scandinavian cousins move in and intermarry with the "liberated russian principality"

novgorod is modernized in the process eventually leading to a modern russia built to be "mega germany"

maybe they even become protestant

 

[alexmilman]

another possible pod the pope sends the proto prussians (teutonic order) to novgorod to save "christian brothers" from the mongol barbarians

When?

The only time when it would make some practical sense was soon after the Mongolian conquest of Central Russia and Western Campaign but fate of these "brothers" would not be enviable: most of that period Novgorodian Prince was Alexander Yaroslavovich "Nevsky" (hero of a terrible movie with a very good music), a rather successful general who in 1242 scored a victory on Lake Peipus over the forces of Bishop of Dorpat and Livonian Order.

At a later time something like a crusade had been planned but the future crusaders lost their enthusiasm at the new that Khan (Menghu Timur, IIRC) is going to send the troops to protect his Novgorodian vassals.

a russian civil war begins with moscow leading the loyalist side and novgorod the rebels

By the time Moscow was in a position to "led" something in the civil war (why civil war? all these states still had been independent from each other), it was a little bit too late for such an enterprise. Anyway, the main regional force already was Lithuania (Novgorod acknowledged Vitold as its "protector" and so did Great Princedom of Moscow). And, anyway, the TO had been a little bit too busy on the other side of Lithuania so what you are talking about is Livonian branch of the TO which amounted to very few hundreds brothers.