Alexander was the main mover behind an independent constitutional Poland and kind of got that over Austrian objections, but of course that independence was nominal and the constitutionality fleeting. At best you could get a bigger version of Congress Poland.
Prussia retains Polish Lands during Congress of Vienna
- Thread starter stubear1012
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Of course, it does not and why would Austria cede it? But I was trying to make a complete list of the options, no matter how absurd.
Hanover, perhaps? Or have the Wettins set up there as compensation?
Deleted member 92195
Very interesting, I'm sure this is recorded in a book or website somewhere, would love to find it.
Deleted member 92195
Interesting to think that Saxony in 1800 was 36,900km2 and Prussia Rhine Provine was 27,600km2 and their Westphalia province 20,600km2 which totals 48,200km2. Therefore Saxony would dominate the Rhine with 11,300km2 territory remaining. Whether she gains the remaining territory, it is given to someone else or a new state is created of it, the Saxon king only needed to accept. However German unification would be impossible through the Prussian route which means more than likely Austrian unification.
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
IMHO, the question how Russia would feel about the Danubian principalities or territorial gains in the Caucasus (it would feel good) is not as relevant as the question who would give then to Russia as a reward? Not to imply that the Turks were (or are) the excessively stingy people but giving big chunks of their territory to anybody as a gift (aka, without putting a good fight) would be probably too much to expect.
Serbia belongs to the same category and has an additional disadvantage of being on the wrong side of the Balkans.
The only valuable place close to the "northern part of Sweden-Norway" is, AFAIK, Petsamo but it was already in the Russian hands and its value became clear only in 1921 when the big deposits of nickel had been discovered there.
As for the Baltic islands, if one removes from the picture the islands that Russia already possessed, there was, actually, an interesting option that would not fit into a category "My armies went all the way to Paris and the only thing that I got is that lousy island". How about Russia getting the following islands (from a former Napoleon's ally): Zealand, Funen, Bornholm, Falster, Lolland, Mon, Læsø, Samsø and the smaller ones in between?
I think Britain would “have a cow” (maybe even a Holstein ) about Russia getting Zealand Copenhagen.
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
What might the Austrians have required as compensation for Yielding Galicia
To Russia? Anything worth the price? It’s own share of Saxony? Upper Bavaria? Direct incorporation of Parma, Modena or even Tuscany?
On the Danubian principalities, hadn’t the Russians been marching all over them since 1806? What kind of fight could the Ottomans, or Vlachs or Phanariots have really put up if Russia insisted on incorporating them?
To Russia? Anything worth the price? It’s own share of Saxony? Upper Bavaria? Direct incorporation of Parma, Modena or even Tuscany?
On the Danubian principalities, hadn’t the Russians been marching all over them since 1806? What kind of fight could the Ottomans, or Vlachs or Phanariots have really put up if Russia insisted on incorporating them?
As I said, Austria would have a strong preference in keeping Saxony intact.
Same thing with Bavaria, which is also Catholic and likely to be on the Austrian side anyway given their dislike for Northern Germans in general and Prussians in particular.
What clinches best is that Austria has already the role of policeman in Italy: they don't want to have another open front in Germany while their strategy is to continue the (slow) penetration in the Balkans.
On the face of it, Austria would apparently gain from consolidating Parma, Modena and Tuscany with the Lombardy-Venetia: all of these provinces would bring a net contribution in taxes. However the gain is illusory, even assuming that the other Powers agree (which is far from easy: Parma was given to Marie Therese for her lifetime only, but the duchy was a Bourbon one and reverted on her death): besides the fact that the rulers are "family", it would effectively recreate the Napoleonic kingdom of Italy and would be a very big no-no from Austria (and Metternich) POV. The last thing that a rational Austrian minister might want is to consolidate an Italian identity.
As far as Russia is concerned, Poland territories would be more developed than most in the Russian empire (while Galicia wouldn't), and this does not consider the minor fact that the czar wants to get his slice of meat at the Congress, and he wants it from the main theaters were Russian armies have fought. Another consideration is that Russia already considers the Danubian principalities an area within the Russian sphere of interest: having this formalised at Vienna doesn't give Russia anything they don't already have.
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
Hmm, again it requires squeezing the Ottomans at the margins, but might Austria accept a Russian Galicia if it can be compensated with Bosnia-Hercegovina at this point?
You are not reading my posts:
And as far as Austria, why should they give away something to be awarded lands that are not within the scope of the Congress of Vienna and should be taken by force?
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
No I am reading them dude and I get the logic. I just happened to have an obsession with a Russian Eastern Galicia so kept trying to ask how it could happen.
Sorry for distracting further from the main thread but this discussion has brought up a topic that is really relevant to me!
I'm currently working on something (dunno if it will by my first TL or not) involving a personal union between Prussia and Poland under the Hohenzollerns.
The circumstances aren't at all relevant here, i'm just really curious, but if Poland was completely off the table, is there really nothing Russia could've been
offered instead?
Edit:
I forgot about Stubear's initial premise, what would make the Russians stop at the border?
Greater devastation in the wake of Napoleons invasion?
A higher casualty rate?
Outbreak of disease?
Lack of guarantees the other powers would join in?
Something else entirely?
I'm currently working on something (dunno if it will by my first TL or not) involving a personal union between Prussia and Poland under the Hohenzollerns.
The circumstances aren't at all relevant here, i'm just really curious, but if Poland was completely off the table, is there really nothing Russia could've been
offered instead?
Edit:
I forgot about Stubear's initial premise, what would make the Russians stop at the border?
Greater devastation in the wake of Napoleons invasion?
A higher casualty rate?
Outbreak of disease?
Lack of guarantees the other powers would join in?
Something else entirely?
Last edited:
Perhaps Alexander I instead of seeing himself as saviour of Poles have another fixation-he wants unification of Russian lands to be completed, so he demands East Galizia, Chelm and perhaps Suwalki, but not Warsaw.
Damn that was quick
So you are suggesting a change in Alexander's personality or at the very least a change in his priorities?
Was he or the Russians that nationalistic at this point? Sorry, sadly i'm not too knowledgeable about the Tsars before Nicholas II!
Alexander Romanov surely was not nationalist, he didn't even bother to annex Chelm directly to Russia. Perhaps if he had sentiment to "lost Ruthenian lands" that need to be restored to Russian Orthodox rule, and Duchy of Warsaw in 1814 is bigger (get whole Galizia in 1809?) There is more to carve from Duchy of Warsaw not, or barely touching Polish corelands. East Galizia, Chelm, Suwalki from Duchy of Warsaw + Bukovina. Austria could get back Cracow and Kielce instead.
I still think thare are 2 options to have what OP wants:
1. We simply need to have a POD that convinces Alexander that he doesnt want more of Poland. Russia is an absolut monarchy. Its true that the tsar was in a position to demand territory in Vienna. However this is his decision and his alone. Basically he is Russia at the time and he decides what Russia needs. Some people here are claiming that Russia needs to have more territory as a compensation. Thats only Alexander's call. Russia later has gone to war/sent troops to help an ally without any compensation - see 1848.
2. We need to reduce Russian contribution to a point were Napoleon is still beaten but Russia is not in a position in Vienna to ask for more territory. OP aimed at this with Russia not pursuing Napoleon however it has been pointed out that thats too soon. What about a fall out among the allies right after Leipzig in 1813? Some incident that makes the tsar recall his troops and singing a separate peace with Napoleon?
1. We simply need to have a POD that convinces Alexander that he doesnt want more of Poland. Russia is an absolut monarchy. Its true that the tsar was in a position to demand territory in Vienna. However this is his decision and his alone. Basically he is Russia at the time and he decides what Russia needs. Some people here are claiming that Russia needs to have more territory as a compensation. Thats only Alexander's call. Russia later has gone to war/sent troops to help an ally without any compensation - see 1848.
2. We need to reduce Russian contribution to a point were Napoleon is still beaten but Russia is not in a position in Vienna to ask for more territory. OP aimed at this with Russia not pursuing Napoleon however it has been pointed out that thats too soon. What about a fall out among the allies right after Leipzig in 1813? Some incident that makes the tsar recall his troops and singing a separate peace with Napoleon?
WI the GA doesn't escape across the Beresina and is forced to surrender? When Prussia and Austria get that news they may well occupy the Duchy of Warsaw before the Russian army arrives, so that their recovery of their Polish lands is a fait accompli. .