WI: Caesarion born a girl?

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I've always been interested in this period of history, and Caesarion has AH potential. But what if he was born a girl? Let's call this alternate child Julia Thea.

Would Cleopatra still make her co-ruler? Who would she marry her to? A Greek king or a Roman general? Would Octavian still be determined to eliminate Julia Thea as a possible threat to his legitimacy? Or would he marry her to a client king?

Any thoughts?
 
Julia Thea would be someone to rally around. Killing her isn't necessary but raising her and choosing her betrothed is. Say the same as OTL and Julia Thea isn't married, or the marriage isn't official/is in the engagement stage when Octavian takes over. He can adopt her, plan to marry her (20 yr age diff give or take, which i would imagine would raise no eyebrows at the time) either to his appointed/adopted/begotten heir or for himself especially seeing as he had no sons from his 3 marriages.

As for should Cleopatra herself chose to marry her daughter/the daughter of Julius Cesear to. That's quite an interesting question. Rome is still technically a republic, by the time a split occurred between Octavian and Mark Anthony I'd imagine it would be too late to manoeuvre a diplomatic alliance via a marriage to Julia Thea and that would be putting the hand on the dial in the opposite direction of what cards she had. The only power outside the Roman republic that Cleopatra could hope to help keep Egypt independent would've been Parthia and that would've been a great volte-face, not impossible but seeing as how close she'd tied her horse to Octavian it'd have to be quick and in a manner that maybe gain Parthia troops and involved concession of Roman territories (scandalous)
 
Interesting idea. I think Cleopatra would still make use of her as co-ruler due to her being Caesar's child. I don't think Octavian would have her executed like Caesarion. My guess is either she is married to Juba II, in place of Cleopatra Selene, or if she is very lucky becomes part of the Imperial family like Antonia Major-Minor and marries a prominent Roman.
 
Kleopatra Julia likely will be the heiress but not her co-ruler of her mother. As husbands for her, choised by Cleopatra, I think either one of Mark Antony's sons by Fulvia (so Antyllus or Julus) or Octavian himself (the age difference is like 15/16 years)
 
Given that Cleopatra Selene was the only one among Cleopatra's children to have been immediately killed by Octavian, Cleopatra Caesaris would be spared. Octavian would want as a spouse. Now the question is whether fem-Caesarion would be cunning enough to not end up being murdered by a likely jealous Livia.
 
Kleopatra Julia likely will be the heiress but not her co-ruler of her mother. As husbands for her, choised by Cleopatra, I think either one of Mark Antony's sons by Fulvia (so Antyllus or Julus) or Octavian himself (the age difference is like 15/16 years)

But would Rome be okay with their leader marrying the daughter of a foreign queen and their dictator?
 
From a thread of mine:

Well, we have to realise that there was such thing as marriage customs in the Late Roman Republic and in the early Principate. They were not written down, there were no laws for that but that does not mean that the Roman Marrige Customs were not important and were not obeyed and followed.

And there was such thing as a 'proper Roman wife'. I remember that in the 1st century AD the Roman legionaries, settled after retiring somewhere in the provinces, took great pains to get a 'proper Roman wife' with a good Roman background - that was usually a girl from Italy. And that marriage was usually arranged by the legionary's relatives back home or by his friends and their relatives (usually 'proper Romans' as well).
The point here is that there were a lot of Roman citisens in the provinces - some Syrians, Greeks, Armenians, Numidians, Belgs, Germans you name it who received their Roman citizenship from the Roman state / emperor, but some of them did not even speak Latin and were culturally alien to the retired Roman legionary.

So marriagable girls/women from these provincial " new Roman" families did not quite fit, did not quite qualify. They could not make "proper Roman wives". It seems that the retired Roman legionaries wanted their children be 'true Romans' born by a true Roman man and a true Roman wife.

And here we are speaking about the common people, ordinary Romans, simple folks, plebs.

If we are speaking about Julio-Claudian dynasty here we are dealing with the Roman elite, aristocrasy, upper strata of society. And among them the acute sense of "True Romannes" was even more stronger and marriage customs were even more rigid.

The point here is the same as with the plebs - to be considered 'true Romans' your legal children better be borne from a 'proper Roman wife'. Of course if you are from senatorial class and you have financial problems you can marry a Roman girl from a rich plebean family, but it'd better be an ancient Roman/Italian plebean line. In the late Republic and Early Principate I don't remember any true Roman aristocrat (from an ancient Roman bloodline) having a legal wife from some royal foreign bloodline - that would mean kind of spoiling his own bloodline, even disgrace, I guess it was unthinkable.

Of course a Roman (male) aristocrat had a God given right to have sex with foreign kings or/and queens (IIRC Caesar had both) and he might even call it a marriage for a bigger excitment and fun and there might be even children from these alliances. But these kids would be bastards, illegal and (which is even more important) not exactly "true Roman".

And that's why the Julio-Claudians would have avoided marrying Julio-Ptolemaic or the Antonine-Ptolemaic line.
Well, Ptolemaic being the royal and foreign line made it even more unacceptible for the princeps taking great pains to avoid any hints at royal nature of the emperor's power and stressing the 'true traditional Roman' nature of their rule.
 
But would Rome be okay with their leader marrying the daughter of a foreign queen and their dictator?
Is it even possible for Octavian to marry "female Caesarion"? He was adopted by Caesar so him taking Caesar's daughter as a wife would in legal terms amount to incest (even if there is no actual blood relation between the two).
 
Is it even possible for Octavian to marry "female Caesarion"? He was adopted by Caesar so him taking Caesar's daughter as a wife would in legal terms amount to incest (even if there is no actual blood relation between the two).
Well, Augustus' daughter Julia ended up marrying her stepbrother.
 
Is it even possible for Octavian to marry "female Caesarion"? He was adopted by Caesar so him taking Caesar's daughter as a wife would in legal terms amount to incest (even if there is no actual blood relation between the two).


Welcome to the board, hope you like it here, but please be advised that necromancy (posting in a thread over two years old) is frowned upon by the mods. Rather create a new thread and link the old one if you wish.
 
Welcome to the board, hope you like it here, but please be advised that necromancy (posting in a thread over two years old) is frowned upon by the mods. Rather create a new thread and link the old one if you wish.
Thank you, and sorry I didn't intend to start with breaking the rules. As for my question it appears Marcus Aurelius married Antoninus daughter Faustina after being adopted. So this probably settles it. Octavian technically could have married Caesar's daughter if he wanted to.
 
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