After the Munich Agreement Czechoslovakia refuse to give the Sudetenland and goes to war anyway

[Anti-GrammarNazi]

What would happen? It is to my understanding that though Germany would win, it would be a hard fight.

I wonder if this would had consequences in other campaigns like Poland, France and Barbarossa.

 

[anotherlurker]

Depends on how it goes... i mean just because the Czechs refuse the agreement doesnt mean that the W-Allies will look away, here's how it might go though:
-W-Allies not coming to their aid because the refused the agreement.
-1/2 of Czechoslovakia (Germans, Hungarians, Poles, Ukrainians) refuses to fight.
-Hungary joins in to get its own pound of flesh.
-There's even the possibility of Poland invading.
-Soviets threatening bloody murder over it... better Polish/German relations over that? Mother of all ASBs...

 

[naraic]

What would happen? It is to my understanding that though Germany would win, it would be a hard fight.

I wonder if this would had consequences in other campaigns like Poland, France and Barbarossa.

Was discussed for two or three pages within the last fortnight.

The conclusion was that the Czechs would have fallen within 3 months and bloodied the Germans.

Important to note that every Czech tank destroyed is not available for Germany in 1939. Roughly 1 in 3 tanks in the invasion of France was of Czech manufacture.

Also important to realise that the Czechs had 10,000 pilboxes prepared in the sudeten region.

 

[Michele]

What would happen? It is to my understanding that though Germany would win, it would be a hard fight.

I wonder if this would had consequences in other campaigns like Poland, France and Barbarossa.

You wonder that? I'd be wondering how it could not have consequences.

Just think about one factual detail, never mind how the war goes or how the diplomatic constellations shift. Assume the Germans win, though not without fighting.

That means the Czechslovakian's tanks are mostly destroyed in combat or blown up by their own crews not to let them fall in enemy hands. At the same time, the Škoda and CKD plants are bombed, set afire, or otherwise damaged.
The Germans will need time to set them up again, if it is possible at all. And, after a war they've lost, the Czech workers in the Protectorate are much more likely to carry out industrial sabotage than in OTL.

Bottom line: in June 1941 the Heer still had six Panzerdivisionen out of 20 equipped with those Czech tanks as the main tank model - Czech tanks that in this timeline were mostly destroyed or not produced at all. Let alone their role in 1939 and 1940.

---

Sorry, I didn't see the previous post already making this point.

 

[Archibald]

Another TL I would read avidly. A detailed Czech - Nazi war turning into a meat grinder for Germany even if they won in the end.
I'm not that interested in foreign interventions - just the two countries fighting each others. foreign powers just send tanks and aircrafts and volunteers.

Michele you say Barbarossa, I say invasion of France. Without the boatload of Czech panzers, plus the plants you mention, germany may have to kiss goodbye to OTL victory. It takes little butterflies to turn fallgelb into a meat grinder. This is a big one.

 

[naraic]

Sorry, I didn't see the previous post already making this point.

No worries we are allowed make the same point.

No rules against it.

 

[Michele]

Michele you say Barbarossa, I say invasion of France.

Indeed. What I meant is that as late as in 1941 those Czech tanks were of paramount importance - all the more so in 1940 and 1939.

 

[Tibi088]

Another TL I would read avidly. A detailed Czech - Nazi war turning into a meat grinder for Germany even if they won in the end.
I'm not that interested in foreign interventions - just the two countries fighting each others. foreign powers just send tanks and aircrafts and volunteers.

Michele you say Barbarossa, I say invasion of France. Without the boatload of Czech panzers, plus the plants you mention, germany may have to kiss goodbye to OTL victory. It takes little butterflies to turn fallgelb into a meat grinder. This is a big one.

I cant imagine Hungary not intervening on germanies side. And Poland wants Teschen. Also I now the german-czech border was fortified but was that true for the former austrian-czech border as well?

Also would Germany start the world war the same time as OTL if it had to fight a costly war against Czechslovakia?

 

[LegionoftheUnitedStates]

Ironically these two games came out within a year of each other...

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Germany wins but not without losses, the Czech defences in the Sudetenland were quite good. So a couple of months for Germany to break through.

 

[Archibald]

I do know that OTL Germany liked the phony war as their ammunition stocks (among others) had been depleted by the fight in Poland. I suppose that, all things being equal, a fight against the Czech would deplete their stocks so they couldn't fight Poland as per OTL. Plus the already mentionned non-existing Czech panzers.
Meanwhile the French government would sell their mother for Germany not attacking before 1941. Before that date, it was (rightly) considered France was not ready to fight. Bluntly: the more Germany waits, the more France is ready - even a little more ready can derail OTL battle.

 

[naraic]

I do know that OTL Germany liked the phony war as their ammunition stocks (among others) had been depleted by the fight in Poland. I suppose that, all things being equal, a fight against the Czech would deplete their stocks so they couldn't fight Poland as per OTL. Plus the already mentionned non-existing Czech panzers.

Also the phoney war was required to reequip the Luftwaffe. A significant number of planes were shot down in the war with Poland. The pilots were recovered at the end of the war and given new planes.

Actually one of my what it's that won't leave me alone is what difference would a small scale war crime massacaring the 300 or so German pilots held in pow camps by the Poles would have on the war in the West.

 

[BlondieBC]

What would happen? It is to my understanding that though Germany would win, it would be a hard fight.

I wonder if this would had consequences in other campaigns like Poland, France and Barbarossa.

Good chance these battles don't happen, at least not like OTL. Think on the diplomacy. ITTL, Hitler has never broken a treaty he signed. ITTL, Poland will also likely join the war as OTL and take a bit of land. Hitler ends up with almost all of Czechoslovakia and a good reputation. His army will be bloodied, so it will not be as ready for a war with Poland in Summer/Fall 1939. Hitler then will be able to start talks with Poland about Danzig and West Prussia. The Nazi and Poles are just fought a joint war as allies. There are lots of interesting possibilities for Hitler. Maybe he can swap parts of West Prussia for parts of "Polish" Czechoslovakia. Perhaps the UK/France will be willing to help "get the borders in right locations".

The rest of the war will not play out as OTL did. France definitely will not fall on schedule.

 

[spkaca]

A lot depends on the diplomatic attitudes. If London & Paris and/ or Moscow decided to intervene anyway (though they probably wouldn't) it might trigger the Army to move against the Nazis - which is still possible at this point. The Poles might well grab Teschen, thus shooting themselves in the foot, though they're in deep trouble whatever happened. Seeing the Germans actually going to war probably concentrates minds in the West and might mean less reluctance to forming a common front with Moscow in 1939. If that happened, then one could see the following scenario play out:
1. Warsaw and Berlin squabbling over the spoils (seems likely, in much the same way as two sharks might squabble over a whale carcass),
2. a German threat to Poland as a result (also likely, given Nazi attitudes), and
3. a conditional joint Western-Soviet security guarantee to Poland.
How does this affect Hitler's decision-making? His decision to invade Poland OTL was influenced it seems by perceived Western feebleness i.e. he didn't believe in their guarantee to Poland on the grounds that the Western powers were "little worms, I saw them at Munich". The Western DoW supposedly took him by surprise. Here he would have two connected reasons to take the guarantee more seriously: both Soviet participation in itself, and the signal from the Western powers that they were serious enough to partner with Moscow despite their differences. All of this is likely to buy the West more time, which is what they needed. Most probable result: eventual WW1 rerun, about as popular as most remakes. Italy might well stay out altogether. The knock-on effects in Asia would be enormous; no Fall of France = no Japanese occupation of Indo-China etc.

 

[Max Sinister]

Also important to realise that the Czechs had 10,000 pilboxes prepared in the sudeten region.

Yes, but not along the (former) border to Austria, since they thought a unification of Germany and Austria was verboten. That was their problem.

 

[Michele]

Yes, but not along the (former) border to Austria, since they thought a unification of Germany and Austria was verboten. That was their problem.

No, there weren't 10,000 "objects" (defensive works) along the former Austrian borders. But a few hundreds were there. I thought there was not much there, myself, but I learned better here one of the last times this was brought up, by a Czech or Slovakian user.

If you are in a hurry, you can bike from Vienna to Bratislava in half a day, or in a day at a leisurely speed. However, the final approach to Bratislava from the easier, Southern shore of the river would have to cross Petržalka:

https://www.bunker.bs8.sk/zoznam-bunkrov/

Mind you, the Germans would have arrived in Bratislava anyway. But they would have had to go cross-country, through terrain not as easy - or they would have needed to reduce these bunkers.

 

[KACKO]

Good chance these battles don't happen, at least not like OTL. Think on the diplomacy. ITTL, Hitler has never broken a treaty he signed. ITTL, Poland will also likely join the war as OTL and take a bit of land. Hitler ends up with almost all of Czechoslovakia and a good reputation. His army will be bloodied, so it will not be as ready for a war with Poland in Summer/Fall 1939. Hitler then will be able to start talks with Poland about Danzig and West Prussia. The Nazi and Poles are just fought a joint war as allies. There are lots of interesting possibilities for Hitler. Maybe he can swap parts of West Prussia for parts of "Polish" Czechoslovakia. Perhaps the UK/France will be willing to help "get the borders in right locations".

The rest of the war will not play out as OTL did. France definitely will not fall on schedule.

Benes offered shortly before end of September 1938 Tesin back to Poland for their neutrality I believe. So nothing to trade.

 

[KACKO]

No, there weren't 10,000 "objects" (defensive works) along the former Austrian borders. But a few hundreds were there. I thought there was not much there, myself, but I learned better here one of the last times this was brought up, by a Czech or Slovakian user.

If you are in a hurry, you can bike from Vienna to Bratislava in half a day, or in a day at a leisurely speed. However, the final approach to Bratislava from the easier, Southern shore of the river would have to cross Petržalka:

https://www.bunker.bs8.sk/zoznam-bunkrov/

Mind you, the Germans would have arrived in Bratislava anyway. But they would have had to go cross-country, through terrain not as easy - or they would have needed to reduce these bunkers.

Petzalka had relatively good fortifications. Also if Petrzalka fell, bridge over Danube would be blown and Germans go nowhere. There was also Czechoslovak monitor Masaryk on Danube. Not sure how long it would last but Germans used it whole war.

 

[KACKO]

Yes, but not along the (former) border to Austria, since they thought a unification of Germany and Austria was verboten. That was their problem.

There were some fortifications. Also blowing up dams in Moravia was prepared to stop German panzer thrust from Austria.

One more thing isoften forgotten. Czechoslovak army mobilized on time and were preparing field fortifications in depth. Everybody is talking about border fortifications but almost nobody mention that Czechoslovak army was already dug in, airforce dispersed. Of course it would not win the war.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

.....
Important to note that every Czech tank destroyed is not available for Germany in 1939. Roughly 1 in 3 tanks in the invasion of France was of Czech manufacture ...

Don't stop at counting tanks. There were trucks for 3-4 motor divisions. And artillery and MG for a dozen plus infantry divisions. Every bit of that was used to prop up the Wehrmacht in 1940 & 41