Challenge: prevent rise of Italian fascism
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lyndons_lyndon
Banned
I think if the allies hadn't kicked them into the gutter at Versailles they would have been less bitter about the loss of national pride.
EDIT: I am a novice in Italian history.
EDIT: I am a novice in Italian history.
That's a good start. Keep Wilson at bay about Dalmatia and Fiume and you would remove an element of propaganda from nationalists (D'Annunzio) and fascists.
Keep limited at the very best the Communist protests in the post-war (No or reduced "Biennio Rosso")
But the simplest way, was Vittorio Emanuele III growing a pair and signing the Facta decree of state of siege to deploy the army during the March on Rome... The coup would fizzle, Mussolini escapes to Switzerland, the PNF discredited if not even dissolved.
TheSpectacledCloth
Gone Fishin'
If Italy received what it desired in the Versailles Treaty, then there's a strong chance that the Italians will remain aligned with the Allies. As a result, communism will less likely be a issue in Italian politics and Mussolini is much less likely to gain popularity, far less leadership of Italy. In turn, fascism as a whole remains dormant and it likely won't spread to many other countries, especially South America (eg. Argentina was primarily influenced by Mussolini's reign over Italy). Hungary will probably be the closet country resembling fascism because of the style of Horthy's government. Hitler and Franco MAY still have success without Mussolini, but it's not as likely. The March on Rome was what inspired the Beer Hall Putsch and probably the Spanish Civil War (since Franco attempted a coup). The international stage afterwards will likely be between the West and the East, with Germany just being a convoluted buffer.
Well there are various way (that can be mixed):
1) - eliminate Mussolini, while after the war the rise of the fascist movement was more or less inevitable, it was he that created an unified movement from various disparate faction at odd with each others; even succeeding in convince the monarchy, the landowner and the industrialist in support him as a bulkward against communism, so without him another less capable figure will take the fascist leadership (probably D'Annunzio) and the movement will see his end with a wimper (maybe a bang if they tried a much less organizated 'march over Rome') and lot of internal conflict.
Benny was a soldiers in the great war and during his only serious action was severly wounded so it's very easy to make him not come back home
2) - eliminate ammunition for the fascist and communist, kill the 'mutilated victory myth'; basically the negotiation at Versailles will not see the utter humiliation of Italy, the dragging of the talk with the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovene about the divison of the spoils of war and more impotantly the idiotic meddling of Wilson as he greatly took future Jugoslavia side. Keep the italian delegation in Paris instead of her OTL retreat and greatly humiliating return, so to partecipate in the division of the Ottoman Empire and the German colonial empire. It's not needed to give Italy a great empire, what obtained OTL in the 20's and 30's from UK and France to smooth thing with Benny will be sufficient and regarding Jugoslavia the Tardieu plan (first draft) will be acceptable, what's important is the time factor, no dragging, no italian liberal goverment looking weak so quick negotiation and the nation will can move on and start rebuild. Better for the negotiation if D'Annunzio attempt to get control of Fiume is quietly stopped.
3) - As RyuDrago said, make the King (and the rest of the liberal goverment) grow a pair and declare martial law; the fascist are basically bluffing they don't have the resources and the weapons to effectively take power and more importantly except Benny, all the movement leaderships is there so they can be take out with a swift move. What scared the enstablishment was that while they can fight a revolution (fascist or communist), fighting another was deemed unwinnable and so making an agreement with Benny (who many thought that was easy to control
) was the lesser evil (and the communist the greatest).
In reality the communist were not in shape to really start any succesfull revolution and were deeply divided among themselfs.
1) - eliminate Mussolini, while after the war the rise of the fascist movement was more or less inevitable, it was he that created an unified movement from various disparate faction at odd with each others; even succeeding in convince the monarchy, the landowner and the industrialist in support him as a bulkward against communism, so without him another less capable figure will take the fascist leadership (probably D'Annunzio) and the movement will see his end with a wimper (maybe a bang if they tried a much less organizated 'march over Rome') and lot of internal conflict.
Benny was a soldiers in the great war and during his only serious action was severly wounded so it's very easy to make him not come back home
2) - eliminate ammunition for the fascist and communist, kill the 'mutilated victory myth'; basically the negotiation at Versailles will not see the utter humiliation of Italy, the dragging of the talk with the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovene about the divison of the spoils of war and more impotantly the idiotic meddling of Wilson as he greatly took future Jugoslavia side. Keep the italian delegation in Paris instead of her OTL retreat and greatly humiliating return, so to partecipate in the division of the Ottoman Empire and the German colonial empire. It's not needed to give Italy a great empire, what obtained OTL in the 20's and 30's from UK and France to smooth thing with Benny will be sufficient and regarding Jugoslavia the Tardieu plan (first draft) will be acceptable, what's important is the time factor, no dragging, no italian liberal goverment looking weak so quick negotiation and the nation will can move on and start rebuild. Better for the negotiation if D'Annunzio attempt to get control of Fiume is quietly stopped.
3) - As RyuDrago said, make the King (and the rest of the liberal goverment) grow a pair and declare martial law; the fascist are basically bluffing they don't have the resources and the weapons to effectively take power and more importantly except Benny, all the movement leaderships is there so they can be take out with a swift move. What scared the enstablishment was that while they can fight a revolution (fascist or communist), fighting another was deemed unwinnable and so making an agreement with Benny (who many thought that was easy to control
) was the lesser evil (and the communist the greatest).In reality the communist were not in shape to really start any succesfull revolution and were deeply divided among themselfs.
making an agreement with Benny (who many thought that was easy to control
It's quite shocking how many times people underestimate fascists
True, but you also need to consider that at the time in Italy a new political age was starting; with the born of the modern mass political parties and much of the liberal enstablisment was not really equipped to come to term with that and really not understood what they faced.
While Benny looked more or less like Trump for them, in reality was the best politician of his generation and greatly outmanuvered everybody else...and even with relatively minimum bloodshed (post March on Rome) compared to the other big dictatorships of the century (but probably the fact that he, unlike the others, had not total power greatly help)
I agree. The King could have issued the orders and the Army would have easily crushed the Fascists march on Rome. Mussolini did not have the real backing he needed. The gutless Victor Emanuel III gave it to him.
It's quite shocking how many times people underestimate fascists
What may be quite shocking is the overestimation fascists get. The Italian authorities, specifically the king, had the power to crush Fascism but the king chose to hand them power fearing a repeat of the Bolsheviks and the fate of the Romanov's.
(Side note: Here in the US, if the Democrats had gotten more aggressive and taken on Trump for what he is, they may have been able to get out the vote where needed to keep this disaster from happening. Instead they just expected everyone to see how foolish it would be to elect him. Also, the moderate and what I thought were intelligent Conservative Republicans seem quite a bit like Victor Emanuel III having no balls. I am watching people I respected prior to the election losing my respect, my support and my confidence and the longer they play the role of eunuchs the more they will lose respect, support and confidence of the people besides me. Perhaps that is why the Savoys lost the referendum and their throne after the war.)
Was D'Annunzio really that incapable? I don't know much about him and the early fascists, but for a guy who sounds absolutely crazy he sure got a lot of things done. And he certainly can't be accused of lacking energy.
Magical123
Banned
Wasn't it also the case that the elites feared communist movements far more than they did nationalist/far right movements?
Come to think of it how can we get a communist Italy circa 1919?
However, about the King's refusal to sign the decree... Still today we don't know why he didn't because he never said why nor his descendents. But generally is assumed from one side he believed the military garrison in Rome won't have resisted to the fascist squads, but mostly because he doubted of the loyalty of his high officials, symphatetic enough with Mussolini (because of the usual excuse "better him than the reds"). And also because was pissed about Facta didn't inform him about the decree overstepping his authority.
He was not incapable, more totally not interested in the boring detail and working of day to day politics, basically during his time as leader of the city of Fiume or Regency of Carnaro, it was his 'underling' the real decision-maker while he passed the time in his villa on sex and drugs party.
It will be much less capable of Benny in forming an united front with the various faction of the 'fascist movement' and the old time conservative, even because he was perceived and considered himselfs more than a revolutionary than Mussolini
Difficult, while strong the communist were not strong enough to take power as the army was still loyal to the king and the movement divided between communist, socialist, moderate, etc. etc.; by the end of the 'Biennio Rosso' the moment for a leftist revolution was gone and ironically existed more in the mind of the enstablishment (and the more hardcore communist) than in reality.
Max Sinister
Banned
If the king really said "No" - would Mussolini decide that the royal family has to be removed too?
There must have been some doubt by Mussolini or at least the realization that he could not get rid of the king or the Royal Family without threatening his own position. He always "reported" to the king, and I mean in all the years he ran the country day to day, he never go rid of the king. So obviously he must have known he couldn't?
The army has always been loyal to the king, so any attempt to overtly getting rid of the Monarchy will have ended with a severe case of lead poisoning for Benny and the rest of the fascist party higher ups
I know during the war the German and Italian high commands did not have a mutual respect for each other. I have always wondered if the Italian Military's heart was never really in the fight. I know I have said before that the king showed little guts in preventing a Mussolini and Fascist takeover, but at what point, (like entering into war halfheartedly, might the king and the army say "enough is enough!"). I know they did eventually but it was really too late.
And sure, if they refused to fight with Germany and Germany then decided to invade Italy, the Italian people would have gladly fought the Germans, and the help of British RAF and Navy instead of fighting them might have been a benefit. (We may even still have an Italian Monarchy today?)
And sure, if they refused to fight with Germany and Germany then decided to invade Italy, the Italian people would have gladly fought the Germans, and the help of British RAF and Navy instead of fighting them might have been a benefit. (We may even still have an Italian Monarchy today?)
Keep current politics, like your "side note" out of EVERY Forum except Chat.