AHC: Right wing terror groups in the US

[LHB]

Not necessary. Bill Clinton being elected was enough to cause many to join militias and advocate armed rebellion. Timothy McVeigh not being caught right after Oklahoma city might also give a boost to right wing terrorism. The speed at which he was caught probably put off many would be terrorist, thinking the the government was nearly omnipotent.

Torqumada

This would probably be the best PoD. There was some violence in terms of the militia movement's activities but a lot more was in the survivalist/fly under the NWO's radar vein. If McVeigh actually manages to escape capture that would change things substantially.

Another possibility is if the Order remains active longer, doesn't go out as early or quickly as they did, and manages to spawn copycats. That bunch were some pretty nasty pieces of work and if they, or their clones, manage to make it to the 90s in force that would get pretty ugly.

 

[Swiffness]

Frankly, I've been consistently baffled that anti-abortion terrorism isn't far more prevalent in the U.S. Pro-Life rhetoric is pretty adamant about Abortion being the worst genocide in history, full stop.

So then.

The only conclusion I've been able to draw is that even the EXTREME Far-Right doesn't really believe its own tough talk vis-a-vie abortion. Like yeah, you SAY its the same as mass murder, but you don't ACT like it is. The fact that Scott Roeder was never hailed as a hero on sites like Free Republic is telling. The Abolitionists had NO problem embracing John Brown, after all.

 

[Johnrankins]

The biggest change you have to make is to make most militia groups being made up of more than wanna-be soldiers. The vast majority of the people in these groups are people who want to swagger and talk tough but turn tail at the slightest sign of real danger. If they were as tough as they try to make out they would join the military. THAT would be dangerous.

 

[Apollo 20]

A lot of wind went out of the sails of the militia groups and other extremists in the wake of Bush becoming President and 9/11. Take both of those away, get Gore into office and you've likely got a Supreme Court that is firmly pro-choice (no Roberts and no Alito) and while Gore was far from a radical, I doubt he would have strayed too far from Democratic orthodoxy when it comes to judicial appointments at the Court of Appeals level as well. Give Gore till 2008 and its possible that we could be 22 years into Democratic presidents at this point if the 2008 financial crisis is also avoided. Obama, after 8 years of Gore, might just push them over the edge and into overt action.

If this seems a bit far-fetched -- and it may well be -- the fact remains that the Republicans have won the popular vote just once in the past quarter century going back to 1989 and that win owed a lot to post-9/11 sentiment and the fact that we had two wars going on.

 

[LHB]

Frankly, I've been consistently baffled that anti-abortion terrorism isn't far more prevalent in the U.S. Pro-Life rhetoric is pretty adamant about Abortion being the worst genocide in history, full stop.

A lot of that is based on the people saying it not so much out of insincerity as mindset. In the right-wing evangelical/fundamentalist mindset, generally speaking, there's more preference for martyrdom than killing in the whole aim of emulating the example of Jesus and all that. Quite frankly it isn't that surprising to me the anti-abortion movement has stayed largely nonviolent based on that alone; the other aspect is certain segments of that movement are pushing for establishing Biblical law through legal means so extralegal violence would be in direct contradiction with that.

There's also the fact that one of the two major political parties in the US actively courts their votes. If Reagan and the Moral Majority never became a force in the GOP you might see more acts of violence but odds are you'd be more likely to see escalated civil disobedience, harassment, and the like than folks going out in the street and killing people.

The biggest change you have to make is to make most militia groups being made up of more than wanna-be soldiers. The vast majority of the people in these groups are people who want to swagger and talk tough but turn tail at the slightest sign of real danger. If they were as tough as they try to make out they would join the military. THAT would be dangerous.

In some ways that's why the modern militia movements springing up in the wake of Obama's election are pretty scary; a lot of them are actively targeting veterans and active-duty soldiers precisely because they want access to that kind of military training, discipline, and personnel.

 

[Booster Gold]

What do you mean by semi-significant?

Because according to this Mother Jones article, more domestic terror deaths have been perpetrated by right wing terrorists than Islamic terrorists. YMMV may vary on that particular snippet (Breitbart was spitting blood as I recall) but it begs the question of how much right wing terror you would need for it to eclipse the psychological fear of Islamic terror in the current climate.

 

[U.S David]

There was a lot of Race Issues in the 90s like the King Beating and the OJ Trial.

I could see this getting much worst, this might get the KKK and Nazis to do more action aganist Blacks.

 

[ThePest179]

In some ways that's why the modern militia movements springing up in the wake of Obama's election are pretty scary; a lot of them are actively targeting veterans and active-duty soldiers precisely because they want access to that kind of military training, discipline, and personnel.

I see. So let's say that after Obama's election, a string of domestic terror attacks occur halfway into his first term, temporarily throwing the FBI in chaos while trying to track down all the separate cases. While it dies down after Bin Laden's death and during the 2012 election, it springs back up again in the wake of Obama's reelection, receiving training and leadership from disillusioned veterans of the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The movement ends up killing thousands of people and largely discredits the GOP and Tea Party as a credible force in American politics.

How does this sound?

 

[overoceans]

Frankly, I've been consistently baffled that anti-abortion terrorism isn't far more prevalent in the U.S. Pro-Life rhetoric is pretty adamant about Abortion being the worst genocide in history, full stop.

So then.

The only conclusion I've been able to draw is that even the EXTREME Far-Right doesn't really believe its own tough talk vis-a-vie abortion. Like yeah, you SAY its the same as mass murder, but you don't ACT like it is. The fact that Scott Roeder was never hailed as a hero on sites like Free Republic is telling. The Abolitionists had NO problem embracing John Brown, after all.

Yeah, plus I've seen quite a few right-wingers who claim to be adamant pro-lifers, but then turn around and endorse some conservative political hero who is pro-choice, because they like his or her stand on other issues.

Like, they would almost all claim to love Thatcher, even though she was more pro-choice than a lot of liberal Democrats in the US. The position basically amounts to "Well, we're willing to overlook the mass baby killing as long as she keeps taxes low."

 

[Johnrankins]

Yeah, plus I've seen quite a few right-wingers who claim to be adamant pro-lifers, but then turn around and endorse some conservative political hero who is pro-choice, because they like his or her stand on other issues.

Like, they would almost all claim to love Thatcher, even though she was more pro-choice than a lot of liberal Democrats in the US. The position basically amounts to "Well, we're willing to overlook the mass baby killing as long as she keeps taxes low."

That and the fact that her Labor opponents were at least as pro-abortion as her. If your choice is between two pro-x candidates than the smart thing to do is to pick the one closer to you in other things.

 

[zoomar]

I would make a distinction between anti-abortion terrorists and right-wing terror groups. The anti-abortion movement is motivated by a religious/moral objection to abortion, not necessarily any devotion to other elements of right-wing politics such as hatred for the federal government. In fact, there are Catholic anti-abortion activists who can be quite progressive on other social justice issues. The same could also be said of homophobic hate groups.

To me the key elements that motivate right-wing terror groups in the US include a paranoid hatred of the Federal government, a virulent fear of international organizations, a belief that the federal government is engaged in a massive conspiracy to eliminate the political rights of anyone who is not a leftist one-worlder, an extreme emphasis on the supreme importance of private property rights, a belief that unfettered individual access to firearms is essential to protect citizens from the federal government, a strong survialist ethic, and a belief that "the system" favors women, immigrants and racial minorities over "regular white male americans".

One other thing. As others have noted, the elections of President Obama has galvanized the fringe right wing. Not only does he personally hit all their red buttons (a smart liberal black person with a suspiciously foreign-sounding name who Europeans like who they they think is moslem and not even a legal american citizen and hence an illegitimate president), the fact that he has been elected twice fairly comfortably reinforces the extremists fear that America as a nation is no longer the America they worship. This is frightening because fringe ideological groups often only become fringe terrorist groups when they have reached the point when they believe they have basically lost the fight in the political arena.

 

[ThePest179]

As others have noted, the elections of President Obama has galvanized the fringe right wing. Not only does he personally hit all their red buttons (a smart liberal black person with a suspiciously foreign-sounding name who Europeans like who they they think is moslem and not even a legal american citizen and hence an illegitimate president), the fact that he has been elected twice fairly comfortably reinforces the extremists fear that America as a nation is no longer the America they worship. This is frightening because fringe ideological groups often only become fringe terrorist groups when they have reached the point when they believe they have basically lost the fight in the political arena.

Hence why I moved the POD to the 2008 election.

 

[LHB]

Hence why I moved the POD to the 2008 election.

If you think they're bad now imagine how insane they'll be if Hillary Clinton wins in 2016

Between the perceived, though totally baseless, marginalization under 8 years of a President accused of being a Kenyan Muslim Communist working for the NWO and the by now three solid decades of anti-Hillary hate a Clinton win in 2016 could be enough to push more than a few off the deep end.

Especially if the Tea Party fails to take the Senate or even loses the House this fall.

 

[ThePest179]

If you think they're bad now imagine how insane they'll be if Hillary Clinton wins in 2016

Between the perceived, though totally baseless, marginalization under 8 years of a President accused of being a Kenyan Muslim Communist working for the NWO and the by now three solid decades of anti-Hillary hate a Clinton win in 2016 could be enough to push more than a few off the deep end.

Especially if the Tea Party fails to take the Senate or even loses the House this fall.

I think that's potential for future history.

 

[Morty Vicar]

Well, actually the OKC bombing is probably not what you want if you are a right-wing terrorist group since it clearly discredited the right-wing militia movement for years.

I slightly disagree with this point, no terrorist outfit, even the most insane, expects to win any popularity contests, all they are looking for is notoriety and reaction. If the reaction was much stronger, say the right wing take this as a cue for revolution, so commit various other acts of violence, and the authorities deal with right wing groups way more harshly (eg start sending people to Guantanamo without trial) sparking even further anger among the right, you have the starting point to some more WACO type shootouts and further bombings. At this point you can throw every fringe group into the chaos.

I don't think any "bonus points" are necessary if these people are also fundamentalist Christians - the evidence seems to show that's pretty much a given.

Couldn't agree more! Imo religious extremism = violence, more often than not.

 

[cracou]

Not really. You use a generic word "terrorist", but it's often much more complicated than that.

In all made-for-TV movies you get "I'm bad because I'm a terrorists" vilain of the week but most people are not stupid, insane and have an agenda.

They always have a long term goal which can be ridiculous (by our standards) but which is perfectly logic given their state of mind.

For example the motive at Oklahoma could have been "If I can kill some FBI agents I will be able to demonstrate that we can free ourselves from this corrupted government". You get the idea?

 

[Derek Jackson]

Nightmare scenario Fascist group commits outrage against Jewish target and makes claim based on Islam. Does the same thing to Muslim target claiming to be acting for Zionism

 

[Simreeve]

How about a Right-Wing Muslim terrorist group, would that count?

 

[overoceans]

That and the fact that her Labor opponents were at least as pro-abortion as her. If your choice is between two pro-x candidates than the smart thing to do is to pick the one closer to you in other things.

Well, if there were two candidates who both supported the mass shooting of racial minorities, and no chance of any non-genocidal candidates winning, then yes, I suppose I might vote for the one who is closer to me on other issues.

But I don't think I would write loving testimonials to that candidate's political brilliance and moral wisdom, as many supposedly pro-life conservatives did for Thatcher. Because, while I might acknowedge that he helped me keep a bit more money in my pocket, the most pertinent thing about his character would be that he was a mass-murdering sociopath. That would pretty much overshadow everything else.

And this is all assuming that I even bother to vote. If it was a choice between two genocidal racists, I might just conclude that the political system itself was beyond redemption, and join some sort of underground group to fight against it.

 

[TheYoungPretender]

If you think they're bad now imagine how insane they'll be if Hillary Clinton wins in 2016

Between the perceived, though totally baseless, marginalization under 8 years of a President accused of being a Kenyan Muslim Communist working for the NWO and the by now three solid decades of anti-Hillary hate a Clinton win in 2016 could be enough to push more than a few off the deep end.

Especially if the Tea Party fails to take the Senate or even loses the House this fall.

Do we have to wait that long? I always remember the simple metric we have for mass violence in this country - a white shooter is a lone madmen. Any brown shooter is would be solo terrorist. An impressionable nutter who happens to be a Muslim is a dark sign of terrorism. An impressionable nutter who is shooting up some state office or official because the Tides Foundation has to be stopped, or "Obama's a-cominn fer my guns" is just a nutter. A rancher threatens to shoot federal agents so he doesn't have to pay grazing fees, and he's a freedom fighter.

So I'm agreeing with LHB here, with the caveat that we won't necessarily see a huge amount of violence ex nihilo, we might have to connect the dots on what's already there. Tim McVeigh isn't nearly as vilified on the far right as one would think. And do you think talk radio would have reacted to Cliven Bundy's rhetoric quite the same way if he'd been black? Crash a plan into an IRS office, and you have members of Congress laughing off several deaths and saying that the suicidal killer had a point. All of the great primary season rhetoric about Second Amendment options and patriots taking up arms against having to pay for their own emergency room visits will look slightly different then.