Best general of the 20th century

So the guy had one good battle with perfect-set up and the advantage of reading the other guy's operations orders.

What did he do when set-up wasn't quite so perfect?

This is the guy got his ass kicked inbetween his ears time and time again trying to take Caen, and approved Market Garden.

Sure, if you're British, you have to like him because otherwise you're forced to conclude that the only competent general officers your nation produced between 1920 and 1950 were RAF. The rest of us, on the other hand?

I really think I should start my "Miles Dempsey for accountablilty" campaign. General Miles Dempsey throughout the Normandy Campaign commanded the British 2nd Army and as such was in control of all the tactical operations around Caen, Montgomery was 21st Army Group Commander and Ground Forces Commander until the Falaize Gap was almost closed and as such was in control of the whole campaign from the Canadian flank on the far left to the American flank on the far right.

In short, Montgomery was the boss, Dempsey and Bradley were his subordinates. It was Montgomery's job to decide how to procede with the campaign to ensure its victory - the strategic side - and to ensure that his armies got what supplies their needed - the logistical side - it was Bradley and Dempseys job to decide how to conduct the fighting in their areas so as to follow's Montgomery's strategy - the tactical side - as such overall resposibility for the successes and failures in both the British/Commonwealth and American sector of Operation Overlord is Montgomery's while the direct accountability for the successes and failure in those sectors are Dempsey's and Bradley's.

Overlord was Montgomery's victory.

Besides which the German forces concentrated around Caen were vastly superior in number and firepower to the German forces concentrated against Bradley - as was the plan - and Bradley's advance on Cherbourg was no better than Dempsey's advance on Caen, and Bradley eventual breakout toward St. Lo was no better handled by him than Goodwood was handled by Dempsey, the difference being there was no real depth to the German defences in Bradley's sector because they were all concentrated against Dempsey.

Bradley, a great Monty-Basher in his own right, praised Monty's plan for Normandy. As far as Bradley remembered the plan had always been to draw the Germans onto the British flank so as to ease the breakout for the Americans - he called it a sacrificial role for British pride - and in this the British were completely successful. Bradley further stated that people only thought of the action around Caen as a failure becuase they were judging it in terms of territory taken, not enemies drawn to it, held down and written off.

Eisenhower is somewhat to blame for both the split of the campaign between American and British sentiments and the prevailing idea that the action around Caen was a failure. He said after the war something along the lines of "once the British failed to break out the American's had to do it", this he said despite the fact that Montgomery and Bradley - two generals far more heavilly involved in the operation than Eisenhower - both agreed that no break out was ever going to be attempted in the British sector and that the mission around Caen was only one designed to hold down and write off the German reinforcement.

Montgomery did not approve Market Garden, that was Eisenhower. Montgomery first wanted to clear the Scheldt with 1st Allied Airbourne Army - two weeks before he submitted the Market Garden plan to Eisenhower he submitted a plan to clear the Scheldt - but Brereton and Browning refused to let their army be used in such a fashion and Eisenhower did not force them to clear the Scheldt nor did he put any importance on clearing it.

Montgomery then planned a limited coup-de-main simply to gain an approach to the Rhine but after some bad weather and increasing German resistance he canceled it. Then came Market Garden, an attempt to gain a Rhine crossing and outflank the Sigfried Line.

Eisenhower needed no coersion to support Market Garden. He had been under increasing pressure from Marshall to used the Allied Airbourne Army and Browning and Brereton wanted their army to be used as a forward tactical strike force so Market Garden was ideal for him. Once Montgomery submitted the plan Eisenhower jumped at the chance to let it go forward and insisted it be put into effect.

Despite all the mistakes made in the planning and execution of it Market Garden came within a stones throw of success - it was 90% successful but it had to be 100% successful for it to be useful to the Allies - and had Eisenhower supported it fully as he originally agreed to rather than let Bradley launch two full out offensives of his own (at opposite ends of his own line) at the same time - the Hurtgen Forrest offensive and the Battle for Metz/Lorraine Campaign) - it may very well have been a success.
 
Originally posted by Nytram01
Montgomery did not approve Market Garden, that was Eisenhower
IIRC Montgomery was the author of Market-Garden. And the problem with M-G was not that Patton or Bradley stole Montys' fuel, but that the plan itself sucked, since it demanded 100% success in every part of it (every bridge captured) and successful offensive on the front which was a tank wide (Hell Highway). And I still doubt that even if the Allies had captured the bridge in Arnhem intact it would have been so very useful to them. Come on, a massive offensive supplied with only a single road?
 
Best general on the level of grand strategy/politics/logistics: Eisenhower...

...And the broad front strategy after Normandy was NOT dumb; it was the consensus view of the best generals except for a couple of egotists. It produced victory rapidly and with acceptable losses, avoiding the kind of risks that could have undermined the unconditional surrender policy of the civilian leaders.

Once Eisenhower took over from Montgomery as Allied Ground Forces Commander he was presented for the first time in his life with a situation where he had to make the decisions. He had made none before and had only been a figure head and mediator and allowed others to handle the military side of things. Taking over from Monty he had no prior plans to exploit the victory in Normandy and was presented with two plans that he could used, one was Montgomerys the other was Bradley/Patton's.

Montgomery's plan was to keep 21st and 12th Army together under the command of a Ground Forces Commander under Eisenhower - himself or Bradley if politicial realities would not allow for a British commander when America provided he most manpower - and clear Belguim and the Low Countries of Germans while at the same time clearing the Channel Ports for use and then building a strong airforce on the European mainland. After halting and building up in Belguim and the Low Countries the Allies would cross the Rhine in strength and take the Rhur then advance on Berlin.

Bradley/Patton's plan was to leave 21st Army Group as flank guard and to the task of clearing the Channel Ports for use while he advance on the Saar and Frankfurt, joining up with 6th Army Group, clearing the industrial area there and entered Germany from the South before heading for Berlin.

Eisenhower agreed with Montgomery that the Northern advance was the most important for logistical reasons - the need to clear and open the Channel Ports - and for strategy - the Rhur was in the North and without that the German's ability to continue to fight were greatly reduced - but he agreed with Bradley that the Saar and Frankfurt were also important German industrial areas that needed to be reduced.

So rather than make a tough decision and force his subordinates to follow his will Eisenhower attempted to humour both men and gave them permission to both advance on their own targets and thus he appeased neither and the Broad Front was born.

The Broad Front was foolish. It dispersed the Allied manpower and put no pressure at all on the Germans, it made the logistical task of supplying all the Allied armies far more complex and difficult and would eventually be responsbile for allowing the Germans to concentrate enough force for a massive counter-offensive.

Eisenhower's Broad Front was proven to be wrong.

The Allied Army Groups ground to a halt in the winter months of 1944 because neither 21st, 12th or 6th Army Group had the manpower, material or logistics needed to push any further on than Belguim and Holland, the Ardennes and Metz and the Alcase region. The Broad Front gave the gave the Germans the opportunity to recover from their defeat in Normandy, secure their own defensive line and prepare a massive counter-attack.

Had the Germans not lauched their own massive counter-offensive - a foolish idea in itself - the Allies would still have been sat at the Sigfried Line as the Soveits rolled over the rest of Europe. Hitler did Eisenhower's job for him as Hitler forced the final major engagement of the Germans in the West in the Ardennes offensive, Eisenhower had made no attempt to force that final battle.

Eisenhower's influence on the European Theater of Operation at a strategical level can be basically discribed as "going forward". All Eisenhower did was to the send his Army Groups forward. He didn't make or enforce any importance on specific strategical targets, he didn't give any of his Army Group Commanders any clear overall plan beyond "advance", he did not attempt to coordinate the movement between the Army Group nor did he try to force his own will on his subordinates or the Army Groups.

History is full of people unable or unwilling to seperate Eisenhower's virtues as a coalition leader from his failings as a general. As a Coalition leader there was none better than Eisenhower and he was indispensible to the Allies for that reason but he was complete amatuer as a General and only strated improving in the final month or so of the war. If Montgomery or Bradley or another expericed field commanded had been Ground Forces Commander under SHAEF the war would have end at least six months earlier becuase they were willing to take command, to take risks, to make tough decision but Eisenhower was only willing to appease all his subordinate and the only men he considered his superiors - Marshall and FDR - and he didn't make any decisions until the war was almost over.
 
IIRC Montgomery was the author of Market-Garden. And the problem with M-G was not that Patton or Bradley stole Montys' fuel, but that the plan itself sucked, since it demanded 100% success in every part of it (every bridge captured) and successful offensive on the front which was a tank wide (Hell Highway). And I still doubt that even if the Allies had captured the bridge in Arnhem intact it would have been so very useful to them. Come on, a massive offensive supplied with only a single road?

Montgomery created the concept and presented that to Eisenhower who then approved it. Browning and Brereton planned it and they along with Dempsey executed it. Montgomery was unusually hands off during the operation.

Eisenhower promised Montgomery full support for this operation and gave Montgomery persmission to talk to Hodges to coordinate his movements with the 1st US Army. He failed to live up to his promise because only a few days after he promised Montgomery support he met with Bradley who - having learnt of Eisenhower decision to support Montgomery - convinced Eisenhower that there was no need to divert anything from 12th Army Group and he was going to attempt something similar anyway.

Eisenhower then gave one of his vague directives saying that 21st Army group was to advance on Arnhem while 12th Army Group advanced on the Saar and Frankfurt.

Braldey, further, launched the Hurtgen Forest Offensive and the Lorraine Campaign only days after Market Garden began and thus diverted logistics to support his two full out offensives at different ends of his own line and tied up all his manpower in action.

As a result only Horrock's XXX Corp was able to advance when the entirity of the British 2nd Army was supposed to advance, and Horrock's Corp lacked the transportation and feul needed to move as far and as quickly as they were required to. Admittedly the route of advance didn't help but it wasn't the only thing that hindered it.

Bradley had no reason to launch his own offensives at that time. Regardless of succes or failure Market Garden was always going to be a short operation that would be over in a matter of days and Bradley line was not in any danger of collapsing nor was their any opening he could take advantage of that could give him a good chance of victory. The fact that his two offensives turned into bloody meat grinder battles that accomplished little to nothing prove that there was no advantage at all to be had by launching them.

Considering Braldey's later hissy fit during the Ardennes offensive about the transfer of 1st and 9th US Armies to Monty's command - threatening to resign because he "couldn't be responsible to the American people" if the transfer happen - and his massive sulk when 9th Army was not immediately returned to him I dont think its beyond the realms of reasonable consideration that Bradley convinced Eisenhower not divert anything from him to Monty and launched his offensives in the Hurtgen Forest and toward Metz only days after Market Garden purely for his own petty and spiteful reasons.

Bradley preventing 21st Army Group getting logistics, transport and troops similary was not the only reason for the failure of Market Garden but it certainly was not helpful in any way, shape or form.
 
I certainly agree that Bradley was a massively overrated General who wasn't fit to polish Patton or Monty's boots but Monty wasn't really that great a General either. Greatness comes from pulling a victory out of nowhere as Manstein did at Kharkov not simply swamping your enemy like El Alamein.
 
I certainly agree that Bradley was a massively overrated General who wasn't fit to polish Patton or Monty's boots but Monty wasn't really that great a General either. Greatness comes from pulling a victory out of nowhere as Manstein did at Kharkov not simply swamping your enemy like El Alamein.

The first point to make is that at 2nd El Alamein there was no way to outflank, Rommel was dug in with a strong mobile reserve that was free and able to be deployed wherever it was needed and the largest minefield of WW2 was laid between the two armies. The only way to reach Rommel was to clear avenues through the minefield - using bayonets and hands because of the lack of usable minesweeping devices - and to try to do this without at least 2/1 manpower superiority (which was what Montgomery had) would be suicide. If it had been Manstein or Kharkov or anyone else in Montgomery's shoes it would still have been a meatgrinder battle where superiority of manpower and material would be paramount to any victory achieve.

That said it was far from a forgone conclusion and there is in fact a strong argument to be had that had Rommel not been in Germany when the attack began and had his replacement not died during the initial bombardment that the British could have been caught in the minefield and their advance stopped dead.

Sceond, how do you rate Alam Halfa? A battle fought only 28 to 29 days after Montgomery took command - not using the Auk's plan, they were very different - that defeated a full out offensive of the whole Panzer Armee Afrika at a time when that army had a slight superiority in numbers over the 8th Army, enough supplies to reach the Suez Canal and far better tanks than the 8th Army as none of the Sherman's had arrived.
 
Monty believed his own press clippings.

Blaming Bradley or Ike for Monty's plan, and Monty's plan had then using a single road, is stupid.
 
Monty believed his own press clippings.

Blaming Bradley or Ike for Monty's plan, and Monty's plan had then using a single road, is stupid.

Monty's ego is legendary and nobody is trying to suggest he didn't have one or try to indugle it.

But Bradley lauched two offensives at opposite ends of his own line that he didn't need to lauch at that time primarilly to prevent anything be taken from his Army Group to support Market Garden and had logistics diverted from Market Garden to him to support his own attacks.

And Eisenhower promised Montgomery his full support but didn't provide it. Rather than take charge and tell either Monty or Bradley to halt so that the offensive he thought most important could get the most support and thus increase the chance of victory he allowed both them to launch full attack at the same time and further dispersed the Allied effort.

I'm not trying to place sole blame on Eisenhower and Bradley for the failure of Market Garden but they are culpable because Bradley prevented Market Garden getting the support it was promised and Eisenhower once more didn't do his job as Ground Forces Commander.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
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Gold: Curtis LeMay - Took a unpolished metal pipe and turned it into a saber that cut the enemy to bits. Tough enough to understand and accept the Mathematics. Utterly terrifying SOB.

Silver: Sir Arthur Currie - Exception both as an organizer and a tactician. Put him in overall command of the British effort in 1916 and the war is over at least six months sooner. The Best British/Commonwealth General of the 20th Century.

Bronze: Tomoyuri Yamashita - Overran Malaya and Singapore with under 30,000 men operating on a shoestring. Fought a brilliant, if little known, defensive action in the Philippines in 1945. Thank God that Tojo hated the man and effectively took him out of the war for two years. If he had been in charge of the IJA in the Solomons it would have been a horror story that would make OTL's nightmare look like a picnic.

Special mention: Vo Nguyen Giap - Fought not one, but two major powers and was the one still standing at the final bell. Another commander who understood the mathematics, in this case from the short side of the ledger. Currently 99 years old and fighting death itself to a standstill.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Tomoyuri Yamashita - Overran Malaya and Singapore with under 30,000 men operating on a shoestring. Fought a brilliant, if little known, defensive action in the Philippines in 1945. Thank God that Tojo hated the man and effectively took him out of the war for two years. If he had been in charge of the IJA in the Solomons it would have been a horror story that would make OTL's nightmare look like a picnic.

I smell a TL.
 
I thought something stank around here....

But no, seriously, that sounds awesome. Grueling, terribly bloody and generally horrifying island-hopping campaign where the Japanese extract ten pounds of flesh for each island captured? Sign me up!
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Gold - Vo Nguyen Giap.

Silver - Carl Gustav Emil Mannerheim (surprised he hasn't been mentioned yet)

Bronze - Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck

Honorable mention - The actor George C. Scott. Yes, I know he's not really a general, but he played one so well on the big screen that he was able to transform a very average American general into a military genius, at least in the popular imagination.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Generals only as in land?
or do we include sea(Admiral) and air as well?
I'd rather not. Admirals and AF Generals are a different kettle of fish.

EDIT: Speaking of it:
Admirals of the 20th Century
GOLD: Heihachirō Tōgō (The Russo-Japanese War)
SILVER: Erich Raeder
BRONZE: Frank Jack Fletcher
 
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Personally, I'd pick George C. Marshall. Eisenhower may have been brilliant in commanding Overlord, but Eisenhower got the job because Marshall picked him. He was considered indispensible by both FDR and Truman. What he did, in overseeing and managing the growth of the Army during his tenure as Chief of Staff, was unprecedented and will probably never be replicated and he played a key role in setting overall US strategy for the entire war. There's a reason he was the first US WW2 General to get a 5th star. And, his postwar career is no less, and perhaps more, impressive.

Marshall was a great war leader and deserves the greatest praise for the Marshall plan after the war. But in strategy he made two big mistakes. First, he wanted to invade France in 1942/43, not realizing the landing craft weren't available and the necessary military buildup would require a lot longer. Eisenhower was much quicker to see the point of the British argument about going into North Africa. Second, Marshall was against striking for Tunisia and indeed wanted to restrict the invasion to Morocco; he was afraid the Spanish might enter the war and somehow help the Germans and Italians trap any invasion force inside the Strait of Gibraltar. Ike wanted to land at Bone as well as Algiers and Oman, which MIGHT have made it possible to beat the Germans to Tunis. Also, it was Marshall who recommended Fredenhall for a major combat command.

Still, Marshall was right about avoiding too great an effort in Italy and elsewhere in the Med after Sicily that might slow down the buildup for Normandy. If D-Day had been postponed more, the Soviets would have ended up taking all of Germany and Austria, and keeping it.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Gold - Vo Nguyen Giap.

Silver - Carl Gustav Emil Mannerheim (surprised he hasn't been mentioned yet)

Bronze - Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck

Honorable mention - The actor George C. Scott. Yes, I know he's not really a general, but he played one so well on the big screen that he was able to transform a very average American general into a military genius, at least in the popular imagination.
Honestly, Giap and Von Lettow really deserve spots in the Top 3. They did display talent superior to that of any other contenders on this list.
 
Going from my limited knowledge: Glorious Comrade Zhukov! Because he was a good general, could withstand Comrade Stalin, and actually led the troops who did most of the fighting. The Red Army, after being battered about so hard early on, was ultimately the thunderbolt that crashed, slowly and with massive cost admittedly, from the Gates of Moscow through the slaughterhouse of Eastern Europe and all the way to Berlin. Perhaps allied generals could have done the same in his boots (although the thought of Stalin's reaction to the sheer level of egoism amongst some of them is an interesting one); but the point was, to state the obvious, Zhukov was in his own boots. In addition, he fought a skilled battle at Khalkhin Gol (although, admittedly, he outnumbered and massively outgunned the Japanese.)

Other generals in WWII were themselves extremely skilled, and each country had some good ones. But quibbling about the effectiveness of Monty vs Patton vs The Canadians ignores the massive, bloodied but triumphant Soviet elephant in the room, with a field grey clad corpse on its tusks. Similarly, it's very well to state the prowess of the German generals (who, especially Manstein, were very good)-but the Germans, inconveniently, lost.

I would also question exactly why Aracnid considered Model to be "saving Europe from communism". It's an awful semantic nitpick, but "maintaining your tyrannical iron fisted grip on captured territory soon to be liberated by a slightly nicer dictator" would be more accurate, in my view.

All this said: I like Monty, not just for his skill, but something I heard a few days ago about his style of public speaking (or something like that.) Something like (if I'm talking nonsense here, please tell me):

-Point 1: When I arrived at the Eighth Army, it was in no condition to face the Germans.

-Point 2: It is now.

-Point 3: We are now going to try and defeat the Germans.

-Point 4: We shall defeat the Germans.
 
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