A better Austro-Hungarian Navy for WW1

[mack8]

Meant to do this for a long time. One of the main inspirations for this TL is this topic by @NOMISYRRUC from 9 years ago.

Austria-Hungary Becomes A First Class Naval Power 1890-1914

I had planned to get this out before Christmas, but I was side-tracked writing replies to other threads. It's intended to be a bit of fun for the holiday season so please don't pick too many holes in it. Austria-Hungary Becomes a First Class Naval Power Introduction In history I've always...

www.alternatehistory.com

For the obligatory austro-hungarian warship porn, basically the great Tzoli has drawn almost everything one can dream of on the subject, for starters here are KuK pre-dreadnoughts, dreadnoughts and battlecruisers projects.

BB/BC Pre-designs (Never Builts)

Preliminary designs for the Viribus Unitis, Improved Tegetthoff and BB/BC designs

www.viribusunitis.ca

KuK Kriegsmarine Capital Ship Projects

This thread was long overdue, actually way long overdue. I don't know why didn't I posted these until now. So here it is, the capital ship projects of the Kaiserliche und Königliche Kriegsmarine aka the KuK Kriegsmarine or the Austro-Hungarian Navy Some designs were already posted here...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

And here a collection of other designs, including armoured cruisers.

Austro-Hungarian Navy non-capital ship designs

I've posted this on WoW subforum of Warship Projects but it laced attention, but just in case I post this here as well: The Austro-Hungarian Kaiserliche und Königliche Kriegsmarine (Imperial and Royal War Navy), abbreviated as K.u.K. Kriegsmarine like other navies of the world developed and...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

So as to the KuK, the hungarian part in Austro-Hungary has impeded naval developments for decades. NOMISYRRUC's POD is good for me, or indeed some other possible POD resulting in more favourable climate for naval expansion.
In this TL i think there should be somewhat more modest increases in ship sizes as of course A-H was not that rich, but still the aim being to get much closer to the italian fleet across the board. From what i read the biggest disparity was in armoured cruisers, protected cruisers and destroyers.

So without further ado, here is my initial TL.

Monarch class build as a pre-dreadnought of 9000 tons, 4x 24cm, 12x 15cm
Habsburg class 11,000 tons, 3x 28cm, 12x 15cm
Karl class at 13,000 tons, 4x 28cm, 12x 19cm
Radetzky more or less as OTL but say 16,000 tons for protection improvements here or there, or maybe add another 2x 24cm (for 10 heavy secondary guns like the Lord Neson class)
Tegethoff as OTL but closer to 22,000 tons for extra protection.
Ersatz Monarch at 26,000-27,000 tons and 12x 35cm guns, though these might not be finished during the war.
We can have a 4th ship build for every 3 ship class, though this might trigger an italian reaction.

For armoured cruisers, first the 3 single ships will receive a sister, so there are 6 in all. Plus the Radetzky AC counterparts will be built too (none built OTL), so the total will be 8.
Theresia 7000 tons, 2x 24cm, 10x 15cm
Karl VI 9000 tons 3x 24cm, 12x 15cm
Sankt Georg 11,000 tons, 4x 24cm, 10x 19cm
"Hunyadi" 13,000 tons, 3x 28 cm, 12x 19cm

Plus 2 battlecruisers counterparts of Tegethoff, with 8-9 guns in twins or triples, 22,000 plus tons, 26-27 kts speed minimum. Two more 35cm BCs would have been built to complement the 35cm BBs of 1914 but these will likely be cancelled or not finished during the war.

For protected cruisers, have an extra class of improved Zentas built in the early 1900s. Then 3 Spauns instead of 1 (with better turbines), followed by the Novaras etc.

This for starters.

PS: This TL exists in the same timeline as a better High Seas Fleet and a better Ottoman Navy.

 

[tomo pauk]

For different reasons, the heaviest ships of the KuK navy barely saw action. Even the armored cruisers were seldom used. Narrow Adriatic sea favored the light ships' action, or at least that is how I read it.
So I'd keep these as cheap as possible, and give greater emphasis to the lighter units.
By the time 305mm guns are to be had, have 6 of them installed on the ALT Radetzky class. Secondary battery of several 150mm guns, and anti-torpedo battery with 100 mm guns.
Tegethoff with 3x3x305 mm. KuK navy can daydream the 3x2x350mm gun ships for as much as the like it.

Cruisers need at least 120mm guns, if not 150mm types. Make a few more of Navarra/Spaun class.
Destroyers, like the Tatra class, 100 mm guns. A lot more of Tatras should've been built, this can happen now due to the cheaper and lighter battleships.
Don't bother with 47mm guns. Even the 66mm guns are passee once people are making the ships from metal.
Make every effort to import/produce the bigger, 600-800 tons submarines before 1914.

 

[Salamander]

It won't matter how powerful the Austro-Hungarian Navy is during WW1. The Anglo-French Mediterranean fleets will bottle it up in the Adriatic where it can't hurt anyone.

 

[anotherlurker]

The job of the navy was to keep the Adriatic as Viennas personal bath tub as a fleet in being, which it did well enough. There's no improvement on that unless you want to expand the mission.

 

[Keb]

The job of the navy was to keep the Adriatic as Viennas personal bath tub as a fleet in being, which it did well enough. There's no improvement on that unless you want to expand the mission.

Well, there were some preliminary plans for an Austro-Italian joint naval operation against France in the event of war. Of course, nothing came of it OTL when WW1 actually broke out and Italy stayed neutral (and ultimately joined the Entente).

A TTL Great War where Italy ends up with the Central Powers (whether through a different trigger, investments in coal infastructure between Austtia and Italy, a pro-CP Italian government remaining in power or Italy simply being bribed by the CPs) could very well see a nasty naval war in the Mediterranean where a stronger Austrian navy (and equally stronger Italian navy) clash with the French and British navies.

 

[anotherlurker]

Well, there were some preliminary plans for an Austro-Italian joint naval operation against France in the event of war. Of course, nothing came of it OTL when WW1 actually broke out and Italy stayed neutral (and ultimately joined the Entente).

A TTL Great War where Italy ends up with the Central Powers (whether through a different trigger, investments in coal infastructure between Austtia and Italy, a pro-CP Italian government remaining in power or Italy simply being bribed by the CPs) could very well see a nasty naval war in the Mediterranean where a stronger Austrian navy (and equally stronger Italian navy) clash with the French and British navies.

Well, the French navy would be hopelessly outmatched by the combined Italo-Austro-Hungarian navy in size and possibly quality as well (ww1 time is not the high watermark of the French navy). The Russan navy too is a non issue, especially after sinking off the coast of Korea. "What could possibly go wrong?" is not unreasonable for the planners to think at the time.

 

[mack8]

Forgot to add yesterday, i've edited the OP to clarify that the better AH Navy exists in the same timeline as a better HSF and a better Ottoman Navy.

 

[mack8]

Well, there were some preliminary plans for an Austro-Italian joint naval operation against France in the event of war. Of course, nothing came of it OTL when WW1 actually broke out and Italy stayed neutral (and ultimately joined the Entente).

A TTL Great War where Italy ends up with the Central Powers (whether through a different trigger, investments in coal infastructure between Austtia and Italy, a pro-CP Italian government remaining in power or Italy simply being bribed by the CPs) could very well see a nasty naval war in the Mediterranean where a stronger Austrian navy (and equally stronger Italian navy) clash with the French and British navies.

Indeed, whether the OTL or improved AH Navy, Italy actually honouring it's alliance means the combined AH/italian fleets woul dwarf the french fleet, which will need substantial help from the Grand Fleet which in turn reduces the number of GF ships facing the HSF. So Italy entering the war against France would probably be the proverbial straw, faced with the additional stress of fighting the italian army as well as the combined AH/italian fleets, it's likely they will throw in the towel.

An enhanced AH fleet, coupled with even a modest italian reply to that, would exacerbate things even more as far as the naval part is concerned for France in such a scenario.

Though rather than the politics and the course of the war itself, this TL is more about creating an improved AH Navy by 1914.

 

[mack8]

For different reasons, the heaviest ships of the KuK navy barely saw action. Even the armored cruisers were seldom used. Narrow Adriatic sea favored the light ships' action, or at least that is how I read it.
So I'd keep these as cheap as possible, and give greater emphasis to the lighter units.
By the time 305mm guns are to be had, have 6 of them installed on the ALT Radetzky class. Secondary battery of several 150mm guns, and anti-torpedo battery with 100 mm guns.
Tegethoff with 3x3x305 mm. KuK navy can daydream the 3x2x350mm gun ships for as much as the like it.

Cruisers need at least 120mm guns, if not 150mm types. Make a few more of Navarra/Spaun class.
Destroyers, like the Tatra class, 100 mm guns. A lot more of Tatras should've been built, this can happen now due to the cheaper and lighter battleships.
Don't bother with 47mm guns. Even the 66mm guns are passee once people are making the ships from metal.
Make every effort to import/produce the bigger, 600-800 tons submarines before 1914.

Certainly that is a possible option, getting smaller capital ships, but more numerous light ships, at least in terms of money available. Though in this TL if possible would want more money towards the Navy, so that they could have their cake and eat it, both more/better heavy units, and more/better light units as well. Agree on more Tatras, more light cruisers, subs etc.
Radetzky variants were indeed considered as all-big gun ships (need to read again through Tzoli's works), so that is certainly a possibility too.

 

[tomo pauk]

Though in this TL if possible would want more money towards the Navy,

Spaun resigned due to Navy getting the very small part of the pie.

Agree on more Tatras, more light cruisers, subs etc.

I was surprised to learn that there was only 6 Tatras built. Even 3-4 more would've greatly improved the Navy's fortunes.

 

[jlckansas]

I am now having an idea of a couple of Duna class monitors vs a couple of Tarantula river boats in the estuary of the Danube.

 

[Monk78]

So how can the A-H navy improve their light naval units ?

 

[Keb]

Though in this TL if possible would want more money towards the Navy,

Well, statistically, Austrian military spending in the lead-up to WW1 rose least among the Great Powers. Nowhere near the sharp increase in investments of Germany, Russia or France. If that can be changed, then more funding would be available by default. The problem is that the navy is a common institution - the Common Army and the Navy weren't major priorities for either Austria nor Hungary. And the Navy, on top of that, was distinctly secondary to the army, without which the Monarchy's survival is impossible.

An earlier war scare, perhaps. Or more terrorist attacks in Austria, preferably ones that make the Hungarian Diet more open to ramping up spending for the common army?

You'd need something circa 1900, though for the Austrians to begin spooling up their navy. If you want something really early, Maximillian following up his brother instead of going to Mexico (due to Franz Joseph dying in an assassination) could work (Maximillian was a navy man and more liberal/flexible than Franz Joseph), but then you're talking about 50 years of butterflies and any Great War would likely be unrecognizable.

 

[mack8]

Well, statistically, Austrian military spending in the lead-up to WW1 rose least among the Great Powers. Nowhere near the sharp increase in investments of Germany, Russia or France. If that can be changed, then more funding would be available by default. The problem is that the navy is a common institution - the Common Army and the Navy weren't major priorities for either Austria nor Hungary. And the Navy, on top of that, was distinctly secondary to the army, without which the Monarchy's survival is impossible.

An earlier war scare, perhaps. Or more terrorist attacks in Austria, preferably ones that make the Hungarian Diet more open to ramping up spending for the common army?

You'd need something circa 1900, though for the Austrians to begin spooling up their navy. If you want something really early, Maximillian following up his brother instead of going to Mexico (due to Franz Joseph dying in an assassination) could work (Maximillian was a navy man and more liberal/flexible than Franz Joseph), but then you're talking about 50 years of butterflies and any Great War would likely be unrecognizable.

@NOMISYRRUC's TL from 9 years ago has the POD set also about 4 or 5 decades earlier, centered on the Ganz Danubius shipyard being set-up much earlier, so the hungarians get to built ships too, hence being more amenable to naval spending.

Also, it is odd that while the italians were significantly building up their fleet after the defeat at Lissa, AH was doing nothing of the sort. If the italians would have gone for a rematch probably AH would have been trounced, that being the odd part, ie AH not being worried about such a possibility and not builing their fleet to counter the italians.

But indeed any POD suggestion goes, though at a minimum it has to be before 1890 or so.

 

[mack8]

Spaun resigned due to Navy getting the very small part of the pie.



I was surprised to learn that there was only 6 Tatras built. Even 3-4 more would've greatly improved the Navy's fortunes.

Indeed at a minimum they should have built as many Tatras as Huszars by WW1, then perhaps another dozen or so improved versions during the war.
As to armaments, even having the Huszars with a uniform 7 cm armament, and the Tatras with uniform 10 cm guns, would still be an improvement over OTL.

 

[tallthinkev]

Could go for a number of fast light cruisers 10/12, 9 6'' or 8'' guns. Double the amount of destroyer's and as many torpedo boats as they can manage. Any pre dreads they have can be port defence. But most important make them good, no cutting corners, reasonably cheap over all. They are not a naval power and everyone apart from the government knew it

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

The base at Kotor Bay needs to be upgraded. A lot of their light TBs and DDs, theoretically very useful for a knife fight in the Adriatic, had limited utility due to their short range and the fact that all the proper base infrastructure was concentrated at the north end of the Adriatic.

 

[tomo pauk]

Could go for a number of fast light cruisers 10/12, 9 6'' or 8'' guns. Double the amount of destroyer's and as many torpedo boats as they can manage. Any pre dreads they have can be port defence. But most important make them good, no cutting corners, reasonably cheap over all. They are not a naval power and everyone apart from the government knew it

Making them good + no cutting corners = will be pricey, not cheap.
Fast light cruisers were lucky to get 6 in guns back in ww1, and 4-6, nothing that approached 10 (let alone 12 guns). Granted, KuK navy made a mistake with arming their scout cruisers too lightly.
Cruisers with 9-12 of 8in guns will be at 10000-13000 tons - making a good number of them probably means no drednoughts?

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Another good investment infrastructure-wise would be accelerating the construction of the rail line connecting Dalmatia to the rest of the Empire (only completed by the Yugoslavs in the 20s). That would make it easier to establish maintain a proper base in Kotor and make the empire less reliant on coastal shipping during the war. I don't think the entente properly exploited that vulnerability, but AH did have to assign some ships that may have been better used elsewhere to monkey-guarding these shipping routes.

 

[tomo pauk]

Another good investment infrastructure-wise would be accelerating the construction of the rail line connecting Dalmatia to the rest of the Empire (only completed by the Yugoslavs in the 20s). That would make it easier to establish maintain a proper base in Kotor and make the empire less reliant on coastal shipping during the war. I don't think the entente properly exploited that vulnerability, but AH did have to assign some ships that may have been better used elsewhere to monkey-guarding these shipping routes.

There was a railroad from Metković northwards, competed in 1891. Probably the best known passengers were the late Pince and Princess that were killed in Sarajevo, sparking the ww1 eventually.
But yes, greater and better railroad connection would've been a boon.