How could we keep the Swedish Empire as a Great Power into at least the 20th century?

Question is pretty much in the title. What PoDs would be needed to keep Sweden as a great power? I figure winning the Great Northern War would be a start, but their population problem needs solving. I was looking through this thread:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/highest-scandinavian-population-possible.431903/
And I saw some possible solutions to this:
  1. Control of cod fishing areas
  2. Make them wealthy enough to import food
  3. Earlier introduction of better farming techniques and crops
  4. Less infighting between the Scandinavian countries
Having Poland-Lithuania as an ally/puppet would probably help with food imports, given their wheat production. So what PoDs would be required to keep Sweden as a great power?
 
I'm not sure it's so much a POD as an outcome, but keeping the situation as far as it relative to Russia and the German states in one where they are never able to wrestle Sweden's Baltic empire from it is a thing. Sweden is not in a great position to deal with "Fine, so they won the Great Northern War - what stops them from losing this territory later?"

Great power status is really a matter of how strong Sweden is relative to its rivals, after all, so you really need to keep them from sufficiently catching up with any advantages Sweden has in the early 18th century as much as strengthen Sweden.
 
Last edited:
I'm not quite sure how big Sweden was at greatest extent, but if it can essentially control all of the modern Scandanavian countries (Denmark, Norway, Finland, and maybe Iceland), PLUS maybe some of the coastline along the south side of the Baltic (i.e. bits of northern Germany, Poland, Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania and maybe even some of modern Russia), then MAYBE, especially if you combine with food imports ala Britain. But Sweden is poorly positioned to be a significant power outside of Europe, so food imports from colonies [edit - was "a colonial power"] seem iffy.

At best, maybe you can envision Sweden as a bit of a northern version of Austria-Hungary, a geographically large, ethnically varied (multi-lingual) empire, which is a player in Europe as late as 1900, but perhaps not a first-rate power. And holding it all together in the late 19th to mid 20th century might be a challenge, as it was for A-H.
 
Last edited:
At best, maybe you can envision Sweden as a bit of a northern version of Austria-Hungary, a geographically large, ethnically varied (multi-lingual) empire, which is a player in Europe as late as 1900, but perhaps not a first-rate power. And holding it all together in the late 19th to mid 20th century might be a challenge, as it was for A-H.

That would certainly be an interesting timeline, I have to say. But a constant struggle to stay "a great power" for Sweden.
 
I wrote a sketch of a TL once where Sweden partitioned Poland with Russia during the Deluge. Access to Polish agriculture guaranteed a supply of food while also providing a staging area on the continent. Sweden is much more active in Northern Germany as well, effectively preventing the rise of Prussia.

ITTL the Great Northern War (or rather its equivalent) goes quite differently. Without Poland, Russia and Denmark do not have the strength to defeat Sweden, which ends up annexing OTL Saint Petersburg, Russian Poland-Lithuania and big parts of Norway while also marrying into the Danish and Russian royal lines. A few generations down the lines the Vasa's end up uniting Denmark and Sweden in a personal union.

Their defeat in the Great Northern War causes a period of crisis in the Russian Empire, which is now pressed by the Ottomans as well. A succession crisis eventually spirals into civil war, allowing the King of Sweden to seize the throne of Russia.

For a period of ~60 years, the Great Arctic Empire would be the largest state on earth, with an empire that nearly encircles the north pole, ranging from Greenland to the Bering strait. This vast realm would eventually fracture due to events that I haven't quite figured out yet, but would involve the rise of Russian nationalism and some analogue to the French Revolution.

During the 19th century, Sweden would be a power in decline, as nationalism gradually tears their Empire apart until the early 20th century leaves them with "only" a rump state encompassing Scandinavia + Finland + the North Sea colonies.
 
Sweden’s problem is very simple, they have too low population. Here an obvious solution would be to expand Sweden borders to increase its population, but I feel it’s the wrong solution. Instead we should look at how much the Swedish population could be increased by improving Swedish agriculture, adopt new crops, increase Swedish urbanization. To come with an example if we look at the Netherlands, it’s around the same size as Denmark proper and while it have better weather, it have much worse soil than Denmark. But Netherland had around double the population density as Denmark in 1600, but if we look solely at rural population there was little difference between Denmark and Netherlands, it was to large extent a result of Netherlands having six times the urban population of Denmark. The Dutch urban population was to large extent feed by Baltic grain, a source of food Sweden could also use to feed its cities, especially because Swedish towns mainly lay at the coast.

So what Sweden need is the early introduction of potatoes to create a booming rural population whose surplus population can migrate to the cities and the establishment of manufacturing industries to give work to these migrants.

If potatoes could be introduced to Sweden in the 16th century that would be the best. If we then see an Irish growth in rural population, Sweden and Finland would have a rural population of 4 million by 1700 (I ignore the rest of the Swedish empire). If we at the same time saw massive urbanization through the 17th century from 10% to 30% (much lower than the 55% in Netherlands), Sweden-Finland will the have around 5,6 million people by 1700 instead of the entire empire having 2,7 million people (of which something like 2 million lived in Sweden and Finland). This would make Sweden far more able to wage war against its enemies in the Great Northern War [1], enable the empire to survive but also putting it in much better position to make it through the 18th century intact, but it would also give it surplus population to settle the border regions like Livonia, Estonia, Ingria and Swedish Karelia which would have suffered under the Russian invasion, resulting both in these region becoming productive again faster, but also further integrating them into Sweden and weakening the position of the Baltic German nobility.

[1] maybe even helping it establish a union with Lithuania,.
 
I wrote a sketch of a TL once where Sweden partitioned Poland with Russia during the Deluge. Access to Polish agriculture guaranteed a supply of food while also providing a staging area on the continent.
Sweden did have a “staging area”, the Baltic Provinces, with Riga being the biggest Baltic port and a big volume of the agricultural exports from Russia and PLC going through it. So the agricultural supplies were not a problem and, Sweden being in the early 1700s a major exporter of the iron and almost a monopolist on tar’s export, the country should have money.

Sweden is much more active in Northern Germany as well, effectively preventing the rise of Prussia.
This would be hard to accomplish and it is an open question if possessions in Germany were a bonus or liability.

ITTL the Great Northern War (or rather its equivalent) goes quite differently. Without Poland, Russia and Denmark do not have the strength to defeat Sweden,

In OTL the Polish military contribution into the GNW was minimal, partially, on the Swedish side and the PLC was by that time demonstrably not a significant military force. The main fighting forces were Saxony, Russia and later Denmark and Prussia.
which ends up annexing OTL Saint Petersburg, Russian Poland-Lithuania
If Sweden is successful, then St. Petersburg’s site (Nyen) is already Swedish and does not require annexation. As for the “Russian Poland-Lithuania”, it did not exist, yet, unless you are talking about the territories acquired in the mid-XVII most of which had been far away from the GNW theater of operations (Smolensk region and Left Bank Ukraine) and hardly could be annexed by Sweden. Greater PLC partition in the Russian favor during the Deluge also could happen in the far away areas because the real OTL Russian interest was in the Swedish-held coastal territories (Russian-Swedish war at the Deluge time).

and big parts of Norway while also marrying into the Danish and Russian royal lines.
This is rather confusing: are you saying that Charles XII would marry both Danish and Russian princesses? Anyway, in OTL the Russian marriage did happen to the Holstein line and Peter III actually was a heir to both Russian and Swedish thrones.

A few generations down the lines the Vasa's end up uniting Denmark and Sweden in a personal union.

Their defeat in the Great Northern War causes a period of crisis in the Russian Empire, which is now pressed by the Ottomans as well. A succession crisis eventually spirals into civil war, allowing the King of Sweden to seize the throne of Russia.
The defeat in GNW would mean an absence of the “Russian Empire”: adoption of the imperial status was a result of the victory and Baltic acquisitions. In their absence Russian state would remain a Tsardom. Tsardom was not “presssed” by the Ottomans because they did not have any serious interests in its territories. It was other way around: starting from the late XVII Tsardom and then Russian Empire were on the offensive.

The civil war in Russia at that time was an impossibility and as for the throne, Sweden missed this opportunity twice. 1st time during the Time of the Troubles when a younger brother of GA was a viable candidate but had been prevented (by his mother, IIRC) from coming to Russia by the religious considerations. 2nd time in mid-XVIII when the same Swedish religious requirements prevented Charles Peter Ulrich of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp from sitting on two thrones. The same considerations would apply in any TL linked to a real history: King of Sweden had to be a Protestant while Tsar/Emperor of Russia an Orthodox. Complete conquest of the Russian state by Sweden was technical impossibility.

 
Last edited:
This would be hard to accomplish and it is an open question if possessions in Germany were a bonus or liability.
It wouldn't really be hard for Sweden to keep a state like Brandenburg down, seeing as it was several orders of magnitude larger. My reasoning was that a strong Swedish Empire along the German Baltic coast prevents the consolidation of Prussia in the first place.
In OTL the Polish military contribution into the GNW was minimal, partially, on the Swedish side and the PLC was by that time demonstrably not a significant military force. The main fighting forces were Saxony, Russia and later Denmark and Prussia.
Saxony was only in the war because Poland-Lithuania was, seeing as they were ruled by the same person. No Poland-Lithuania = no PU with Saxony and no Saxon involvement in (something analogous to) that war.
As for the “Russian Poland-Lithuania”, it did not exist, yet, unless you are talking about the territories acquired in the mid-XVII most of which had been far away from the GNW theater of operations (Smolensk region and Left Bank Ukraine) and hardly could be annexed by Sweden. Greater PLC partition in the Russian favor during the Deluge also could happen in the far away areas because the real OTL Russian interest was in the Swedish-held coastal territories (Russian-Swedish war at the Deluge time).
ITTL, the Russians conquer Polish territories east of the Wilno-Lublin line while the Swedes take the western half of the Grand Duchy. Since we're dealing with a hypothetical, yes, Russia does have significant Polish territories ITTL. My reasoning for the Partition comes down to an agreement between Sweden and Russia to end their war for the time being to consolidate their gains in order to prevent the restitution of a Polish state. It's not like that's an unprecedented thing in history.
This is rather confusing: are you saying that Charles XII would marry both Danish and Russian princesses? Anyway, in OTL the Russian marriage did happen to the Holstein line and Peter III actually was a heir to both Russian and Swedish thrones.
Obviously not. The exact constitution of a single royal family almost a century down the line are impossible to predict. For some reason you assume that the same person would be marrying two people, and that these marriages would occur simultaneously.
The defeat in GNW would mean an absence of the “Russian Empire”: adoption of the imperial status was a result of the victory and Baltic acquisitions. In their absence Russian state would remain a Tsardom. Tsardom was not “presssed” by the Ottomans because they did not have any serious interests in its territories. It was other way around: starting from the late XVII Tsardom and then Russian Empire were on the offensive.
This is splitting hairs. Their state certainly was an empire by this point, and the title Tsar is the exact cognate to German Kaiser and Latin Caesar. I get that its used for periodization in Russian history, but its still based in Peter the Great's megalomania and ignorant occidentophilia. Yes, you are technically correct.
Also, I was under the impression that the Ottomans sponsored a lot of raids into Russia's southern territories.
The civil war in Russia at that time was an impossibility and as for the throne, Sweden missed this opportunity twice. 1st time during the Time of the Troubles when a younger brother of GA was a viable candidate but had been prevented (by his mother, IIRC) from coming to Russia by the religious considerations. 2nd time in mid-XVIII when the same Swedish religious requirements prevented Charles Peter Ulrich of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp from sitting on two thrones. The same considerations would apply in any TL linked to a real history: King of Sweden had to be a Protestant while Tsar/Emperor of Russia an Orthodox. Complete conquest of the Russian state by Sweden was technical impossibility.
I don't see any reason why a civil war in Russia would be impossible. Empires that face military setbacks will always be more prone to internal conflict than ones that don't.

This is also not how reality works. Religion doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything - it just leads to consequences when you disrespect its teachings. The King of Sweden could absolutely declare himself the Tsar of Russia if he wanted to (OTL he'd probably have been a laughing stock if he actually went and did that). So while Protestant and Orthodox clergy probably would have been furious, that doesn't automatically mean it would be impossible.

Conquering Russia was absolutely possible. Just like any other nation, once you have seized control of the institutions of government - military, judicial, administrative, handily focused in the capital - you can generally rule just as much of the country as the old regime did. Its not like the Swedes need to march their army from Nyen to the Bering Straight to conquer Russia.

You seem to have a prescriptive way of thinking about history. If you change one set of events, you change an infinite set of others. A lot of the points you raise are nullified by simple probability tbh.
 
Sweden’s problem is very simple, they have too low population. Here an obvious solution would be to expand Sweden borders to increase its population, but I feel it’s the wrong solution.
It's a little like "England wins the Hundred Years War"-scenarios. Probably not quite as bad(?)*, but I'd expect a surviving Swedish Empire to be,
depending on its borders, demographically more German, Polish or even Russian than Scandinavian.

*I.e. An England that wins the HYW is one that is an appendage of France.
 
It wouldn't really be hard for Sweden to keep a state like Brandenburg down, seeing as it was several orders of magnitude larger. My reasoning was that a strong Swedish Empire along the German Baltic coast prevents the consolidation of Prussia in the first place.
Your reasoning is understandable. The problem is that Sweden hardly had resources to be strong along the Baltic coast while doing something else: these territories had been too stretched.
Saxony was only in the war because Poland-Lithuania was, seeing as they were ruled by the same person. No Poland-Lithuania = no PU with Saxony and no Saxon involvement in (something analogous to) that war.
Not true. The war started in 1700 and the PLC entered it in 1701. It was at war with Sweden in 1701 - 04, then at war on the Swedish side in 1704 - 09 and then back at war with Sweden in 1709 - 19. The second return was after Swedish defeat at Poltava, which means that Russia managed to beat Sweden without Polish help.

ITTL, the Russians conquer Polish territories east of the Wilno-Lublin line while the Swedes take the western half of the Grand Duchy. Since we're dealing with a hypothetical, yes, Russia does have significant Polish territories ITTL. My reasoning for the Partition comes down to an agreement between Sweden and Russia to end their war for the time being to consolidate their gains in order to prevent the restitution of a Polish state. It's not like that's an unprecedented thing in history.

This could realistically happen but these Russian territories would be rather difficult for CXII to annex and even more difficult to held.
Obviously not. The exact constitution of a single royal family almost a century down the line are impossible to predict. For some reason you assume that the same person would be marrying two people, and that these marriages would occur simultaneously.
Your statement was not clear and I asked for the clarification.
This is splitting hairs. Their state certainly was an empire by this point, and the title Tsar is the exact cognate to German Kaiser and Latin Caesar.
No, this is actually a quite important issue. Whatever root of the title was, the western interpretation of the title “Tsar” was “Grand Duke”. It took a significantly increased prestige in the West and decades to get the Russian imperial title recognized throughout western Europe.

I get that its used for periodization in Russian history,
I’m afraid that what you got is not quite correct: it was a reflection of a seriously changed geographic situation. While the huge empty territories in Asia were not of a serious importance for well over century afterwards, conquest on the Baltics drastically changed position of the Russian state in Europe.


but its still based in Peter the Great's megalomania and ignorant occidentophilia.
It is neither here nor there. BTW, for the following couple centuries ignorant occidentophilia was a prevailing attitude throughout the “civilized world” so Peter was anything but unique.

Yes, you are technically correct.
Also, I was under the impression that the Ottomans sponsored a lot of raids into Russia's southern territories.

Ottomans did not have to “sponsor” them: slave trade was one of the major parts of the Khanate’s economy and small scale border raids had been happening on the annual base and were rather routine nuisance to which the other side usually reciprocated . The bigger and deeper ones had been relatively rare and they did not pursue any conquest, just looting.
The war of 1735-39 had been officially triggered by these raids and they stopped until 1756.

I don't see any reason why a civil war in Russia would be impossible.
Well, on that we have a serious difference of the opinions. Civil war between whom and whom? There was no challenge to the Romanov dynasty or, specifically, Peter’s rule. It could happen in a very seriously different TL but you have to define specifics for a meaningful discussion.

Empires that face military setbacks will always be more prone to internal conflict than ones that don't.
This is a general philosophy but how about specific facts? Ivan IV was defeated in the Livonian War, Tsar Michael was beaten by the Poles in Smolensk War. Tsar Alexey suffered a serious offset in his war with Sweden and Poland, during the GNW Russia suffered numerous defeats and then Peter was defeated at Prut. Alexander I suffered defeats in the 3rd and 4th coalitions. No civil wars or even revolts in any of these cases.
This is also not how reality works.

Actually, this was exactly as reality worked. Sigizmund was kicked out of Sweden, Queen Christina abdicated and in the enlightened XIX century Bernadotte had to declare himself a Protestant. Alt reality may work differently but you have to specify the details. For example by stipulating that in all involved countries population was not giving a damn about religion.
Religion doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything - it just leads to consequences when you disrespect its teachings. The King of Sweden could absolutely declare himself the Tsar of Russia if he wanted to (OTL he'd probably have been a laughing stock if he actually went and did that).

If he wanted, the King of Sweden could also declare himself an Emperor of China. The issue is not who can declare himself what but in being accepted by the subjects. Prince Wladislaw was welcomed to the Russian throne until it became clear that he is not going to convert. A Protestant will not be accepted by the Russians and we are getting back to the undefined alt-reality.
So while Protestant and Orthodox clergy probably would have been furious, that doesn't automatically mean it would be impossible.
It was not an issue of a clergy but the whole population. The crowning ceremony would not be legitimate and the population would not accept that person as a ruler.

Conquering Russia was absolutely possible.


The last successful person was Batu and there was no Russian state, yet. Not that nobody tried since then.
Just like any other nation, once you have seized control of the institutions of government - military, judicial, administrative, handily focused in the capital - you can generally rule just as much of the country as the old regime did.
The key words “once you have seized”. Sweden did not have resources and Napoleon proved that even 500,000 troops were not adequate for performing the task.

Its not like the Swedes need to march their army from Nyen to the Bering Straight to conquer Russia.

They would not be able to march it even to Moscow, not to mention Nizhny Novgorod and other places. The Poles occupied Moscow when Tsardom was much weaker and then what?

You seem to have a prescriptive way of thinking about history.
Look, you can argue with the facts by saying that your unwritten TL will change all of them. It is fine by me but if you start making the personal remarks, I’ll report you. As you notice, I did not write a single word about your view of a history so please keep your definitions to yourself and be polite.

What I wrote so far is based strictly on the known facts. Outcomes of the GNW had been discussed numerous times and so far, with the realistic changes, outcome was pretty much the same in these scenarios. If you want to write your own TL, it is entirely up to you but you’d need to clarify quite a few points, which so far you did not.

 
Last edited:
Look, you can argue with the facts but if you start making the personal remarks, I’ll report you.
Let me prephase everything else by stating that no insult was or is intended. I made no personal remarks, because criticising an opinion or view of yours is not a criticism of yourself nor something reportable in the first place.
It was at war with Sweden in 1701 - 04, then at war on the Swedish side in 1704 - 09 and then back at war with Sweden in 1709 - 19. The second return was after Swedish defeat at Poltava, which means that Russia managed to beat Sweden without Polish help.
The Battle of Fraustadt happened in 1706, a clash between Saxony and Russia on one side and Sweden on the other. Saxony was a combatant in the GNW because its ruler (Augustus the Strong) was also the ruler of Poland-Lithuania. If we remove Poland-Lithuania from the equation, that means Augustus the Strong cannot be king of the PLC and thus there is very little plausible reason for Saxony to fight in this war at all.

Russia by no means beat Sweden without PLC-Saxony's help, since the Swedes spent significant parts of the war tied up in Poland and Saxony to pacify the region. Without which much more of the war would have taken place in Russia itself, which is obviously not good for Russia. Since Sweden had a much more capable army than its larger rival but suffered from very limited manpower reserves, any change that shortens the war will play out to Sweden's advantage. They avoid the terrible winter of 1708/09, and they have a much shorter invasion route since they could invade from the Baltics rather than Saxony. Peter also has less time to prepare Russia for the invasion.

Hence Sweden probably crushes the Russian military outside Moscow and takes the city. Unlike Alexander I, Peter the Great does not have a Saint Petersburg to flee to; loosing Moscow destroys his principal supply base in central Russia. Now Sweden probably can't hold the city for very long, but just this feat alone likely forces Russia to negotiate. So Russia cedes its hypothetical Polish possessions to Sweden, because at that point inflicting lasting damage to Russian core territories to keep Poland is probably not worth it.
If he wanted, the King of Sweden could also declare himself an Emperor of China. The issue is not who can declare himself what but in being accepted by the subjects. Prince Wladislaw was welcomed to the Russian throne until it became clear that he is not going to convert. A Protestant will not be accepted by the Russians.
To bad no-one's asking them. The Church can raise an outrage, but ultimately a rabble of revolting civilians and Cossacks is not going to win a field-battle against the Swedish army. I doubt the Swedes would achieve a lasting state, however they surely can massacre anyone publicly dissenting. Which is why I reckoned that the first serious weakening of Swedish military hegemony in Russia would likely collapse the whole affair.
The key words “once you have seized”. Sweden did not have resources and Napoleon proved that even 500,000 troops were not adequate for performing the task.
Napoleon faced a united Russia that was much stronger than a Russia without access to the Baltic, no territory east of Smolensk or in the Crimea which is also embroiled in a civil war. He also didn't have political connections in Russia itself, which Sweden would have if they managed to get a family member or two in there.

As to the nature of that civil war: the Romanoff's certainly were not immune to quarreling amongst themselves, though the political order Peter the Great built did admittedly keep that down some. Neither were they devoid of domestic enemies - Catherine's slave revolts come to mind, as well as the protracted struggle against Zaporozhian Cossacks in Ukraine.

And all of that combined with emboldened Tatar raids in a period of Russian weakness? It'd be a wonder if the fallout of the GNW would not cause political instability.
 
It's a little like "England wins the Hundred Years War"-scenarios. Probably not quite as bad(?)*, but I'd expect a surviving Swedish Empire to be,
depending on its borders, demographically more German, Polish or even Russian than Scandinavian.

*I.e. An England that wins the HYW is one that is an appendage of France.

The problem is that Sweden really need to increase the population of Sweden-Finland, this was the core where soldiers was recruited and where warfare didn’t destroy infrastructure. A massive population is also necessary to go give Sweden the population to enable Sweden to have a navy whixh csn ensure control over the Baltic.
 
The problem is that Sweden really need to increase the population of Sweden-Finland, this was the core where soldiers was recruited and where warfare didn’t destroy infrastructure. A massive population is also necessary to go give Sweden the population to enable Sweden to have a navy whixh csn ensure control over the Baltic.
True.
On the other hand indelningsverket seems to have expanded to the formerly Danish parts pretty quickly.
On the third hand I'm not sure it ever expanded to Swedish Germany or the Baltics*, and it's sort of a chicken-and-egg-type
long-term solution.

*Should be getting to work, no time for further googling.
 
True.
On the other hand indelningsverket seems to have expanded to the formerly Danish parts pretty quickly.
On the third hand I'm not sure it ever expanded to Swedish Germany or the Baltics*, and it's sort of a chicken-and-egg-type
long-term solution.

*Should be getting to work, no time for further googling.

Sweden got rid of the local estates rather fast, the Danish nobility got their estates replaced with crown estates in Denmark (a major reason for the 1660 Danish royal autocoup), the burgher estate was ethnic cleansed, the ecclesial more or less replaced, Swedish settlers was settled in Christianstad Län, and after the Scanian War around 10% of the remaining population left for Denmark. Nothing similar happened in any of the other Swedish possessions, the closest we see to it was in Livonia, where the local noble estate was significant weaken versus the Swedish central power but nothing like we saw in Scania, in all of the Swedish possessions on southern coast of the Baltic Sweden had to deal with strong local estates, they were never as integrated into Sweden like Scania, Bohuslän, Jämtland, Finland and Ingria were.
 
Question is pretty much in the title. What PoDs would be needed to keep Sweden as a great power? I figure winning the Great Northern War would be a start, but their population problem needs solving. I was looking through this thread:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/highest-scandinavian-population-possible.431903/
And I saw some possible solutions to this:
  1. Control of cod fishing areas
  2. Make them wealthy enough to import food
  3. Earlier introduction of better farming techniques and crops
  4. Less infighting between the Scandinavian countries
Having Poland-Lithuania as an ally/puppet would probably help with food imports, given their wheat production. So what PoDs would be required to keep Sweden as a great power?


I am not an expert on the matter, but I know that during 30YW, numerous projects were discussed in Vienna to force Sweden to the negotiating table, which had as a secondary objective, to throw the minor princes of the empire under a tram, in particular a project was being aired in which the possessions of the Swedish Vasa would be much greater than Otl, in particular by giving them Mecklenburg as a direct fiefdom or for a second son depending on events, in exchange they would give up supporting the Lutheran faction ( the Habsburgs to be more than sure I intended to strengthen Saxony at the expense of the local minor princes ( 1 ) but the death of Gustavus II Adolf and Oxenstierna's opposition to this made it useless to pursue this possible political development ( in addition to the possibility of the imperials being able to again " "to win absolutely" ' the conflict made him guilty of gluttony ), therefore I think that such an agreement could partly favor the maintenance of Sweden as a great power, because it would politically weaken the future Hanover and Prussia in the cradle, furthermore I doubt that Saxony or Austria itself would have real interests in the area, politically yes, but territorial or of a different nature certainly not, so a 30YW that ends differently, seeing the minor potentates of the Empire screwed, could be a good starting point, certainly Poland and Denmark would not be at all happy about this, but at least in Warsaw they will breathe a sigh of relief because Sweden would be slightly more interested in maintaining its Imperial holdings than starting a new war with them, this allows the Polish Wasa of the kingdoms" slightly "more relaxed ( although nothing prevents a new clash between the two powers in the future, except perhaps for imperial mediation, but I wouldn't be so sure .... )



1 ) after all, it would be acceptable for the Habsburgs to trade control
( and its safety ) of central Germany compared to the highly Protestant North of the Reich, as long as the political freedoms of the elector princes are not compromised, it would finally calmly adapt to their divide-and-conquer projects against the Protestants, given that the majority of the local princes would have immediately sided with Vienna if Sweden became more aggressive in the area, thus facilitating imperial rule, furthermore this project was accompanied by a different reform of the HRE administration, which would have revised the structure of the Kries and the church ( slightly strengthening the latter ) as well as a small territorial expansion of the archducal possessions in Swabia, with the aim of connecting the disparate and highly vulnerable territories of further Austria
 
Last edited:
title Tsar is the exact cognate to German Kaiser and Latin Caesar.
not exactly. Tsetsar is the cognate of Caesar, tsar just implies a king. The only Russian "ruler" I'm aware of who ever used the "tsetsar"was the False Dmitri. I believe Pyotr Velikiy and his successors used "imperator/imperatorskoye" and the only place "tsetsar" survived was in the title usually rendered as "tsarevich" in English sources.
 
not exactly. Tsetsar is the cognate of Caesar, tsar just implies a king. The only Russian "ruler" I'm aware of who ever used the "tsetsar"was the False Dmitri. I believe Pyotr Velikiy and his successors used "imperator/imperatorskoye" and the only place "tsetsar" survived was in the title usually rendered as "tsarevich" in English sources.
Yes, “caesar” was used by the Russians exclusively as a reference to the HRE emperor. The problem with “Tsar” was that the western counterparts tended to ignore it (no western equivalent) and referenced the Russian rulers as the Grand Dukes (equivalent to the “Veliky Kniaz”), which was placing them low in the royal hierarchy. “Emperor” was fixing that problem without directly infringing upon the Hapsburg status. “Tsarevich”, just as “Tsar” were retained for the domestic usage or unofficial references but officially these persons had been titled the Great Dukes/Duchesses (in French and English equivalent).
 
Last edited:
Yes, “caesar” was used by the Russians exclusively as a reference to the HRE emperor. The problem with “Tsar” was that the western counterparts tended to ignore it (no western equivalent) and referenced the Russian rulers as the Grand Dukes (equivalent to the “Veliky Kniaz”), which was placing them low in the royal hierarchy. “Emperor” was fixing that problem without directly infringing upon the Hapsburg status. “Tsarevich”, just as “Tsar” were retained for the domestic usage or unofficial references but officially these persons had been titled the Great Dukes/Duchesses (in French and English equivalent).

Grand Prince usually in many non-English languages, which is an important distinction, as Grand Prince was very clearly a title of someone ruling a sovereign territory, while Grand Duke is more murky. Duke have always been a tile you receive from a greater authority, while Prince is a title you get from ruling a territory, while this of course grew more erratic over time with Prince becoming the title of anyone of royal blood, it’s important to remember when Russia and Lithuania became Grand Principalities.
 
I am not an expert on the matter, but I know that during 30YW, numerous projects were discussed in Vienna to force Sweden to the negotiating table, which had as a secondary objective, to throw the minor princes of the empire under a tram, in particular a project was being aired in which the possessions of the Swedish Vasa would be much greater than Otl, in particular by giving them Mecklenburg as a direct fiefdom or for a second son depending on events, in exchange they would give up supporting the Lutheran faction ( the Habsburgs to be more than sure I intended to strengthen Saxony at the expense of the local minor princes ( 1 ) but the death of Gustavus II Adolf and Oxenstierna's opposition to this made it useless to pursue this possible political development ( in addition to the possibility of the imperials being able to again " "to win absolutely" ' the conflict made him guilty of gluttony ), therefore I think that such an agreement could partly favor the maintenance of Sweden as a great power, because it would politically weaken the future Hanover and Prussia in the cradle, furthermore I doubt that Saxony or Austria itself would have real interests in the area, politically yes, but territorial or of a different nature certainly not, so a 30YW that ends differently, seeing the minor potentates of the Empire screwed, could be a good starting point, certainly Poland and Denmark would not be at all happy about this, but at least in Warsaw they will breathe a sigh of relief because Sweden would be slightly more interested in maintaining its Imperial holdings than starting a new war with them, this allows the Polish Wasa of the kingdoms" slightly "more relaxed ( although nothing prevents a new clash between the two powers in the future, except perhaps for imperial mediation, but I wouldn't be so sure .... )



1 ) after all, it would be acceptable for the Habsburgs to trade control
( and its safety ) of central Germany compared to the highly Protestant North of the Reich, as long as the political freedoms of the elector princes are not compromised, it would finally calmly adapt to their divide-and-conquer projects against the Protestants, given that the majority of the local princes would have immediately sided with Vienna if Sweden became more aggressive in the area, thus facilitating imperial rule, furthermore this project was accompanied by a different reform of the HRE administration, which would have revised the structure of the Kries and the church ( slightly strengthening the latter ) as well as a small territorial expansion of the archducal possessions in Swabia, with the aim of connecting the disparate and highly vulnerable territories of further Austria



certainly such an agreement would obviously have as a basic requirement, that Sweden ceases to be an ally of France and the minor German princes, with the former not being very happy about this, because it means that the imperials can now focus more on it, but leaving this detail aside, it would be interesting to see how this greater Swedish interest in the politics of the Reich could develop later, in particular if the Habsburgs, in the event of a very important victory in the war, used another idea of theirs ( also very difficult to be able to apply Otl, except with a previous modification during the Peace of Augsburg ), i.e. to create special areas where Protestantism is recognized and tolerated ( in practice confining it to certain regions, mainly if possible in the possessions of electors or foreign princes ) therefore we will have a surplus of people moving towards the Swedish possessions in the north, increasing the population exponentially ( of course the same would happen to the Danish dominions in the HRE, in Saxony and in Brandenburg ) but this raises two further questions how religion would develop Lutheran, if its major exponents can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and geographically very close to each other, we will still see a push towards the strengthening of princely power or a greater search for cooperation / integration at an interstate level, the religious fragmentation of Will OTL still be so present or will greater state control contain it ?
 
Grand Prince usually in many non-English languages, which is an important distinction, as Grand Prince was very clearly a title of someone ruling a sovereign territory, while Grand Duke is more murky.
Duke have always been a tile you receive from a greater authority, while Prince is a title you get from ruling a territory, while this of course grew more erratic over time with Prince becoming the title of anyone of royal blood, it’s important to remember when Russia and Lithuania became Grand Principalities.

All this true but the point is that Ivan IV “upgraded” status of the Russian rulers to “tsar” and this upgrade was not universally acknowledged on the West even by the time of Peter I. Taking into an account that “Great Prince” was inferior to the “king”, not to mention “emperor”, from the Russian point of view, this was humiliating and the whole thing had been rubbed in by the quarrels about the diplomatic protocol, especially with the Hapsburgs, who kept insisting upon the details which would position Tsardom as Emperor’s inferior or even subject and not an equal state. It may look now as a complete nonsense but these things had been taken quite seriously.

As a side note, title “Velikii Kniaz” existed on the Russian territories since XII century and simple “kniaz” much earlier, most probably even prior to Rurik, so it did not mean too much: number of the “princes” had been countless and did not require any royal blood. The minor Tatar chieftains coming to the Russian service had been getting this title but getting as a present the Grand Duke’s/Tsar’s overcoat was a much greater honor. 😂
 
Top