Military equipment during a continuous Cold War

Here's a question, the Su27 and Mig 29 entered service in the early/mid 80s and were competitive more or less with the teen series fighters until the F22, Typhoon and Rafale entered service in the mid 2000s. However with a prolonged Cold War these aircraft will likely enter service in the mid 90s.

What will the Soviets do to match such impressive aircraft? Will it be these aircraft that cause the Soviets to go bankrupt?
That would be the MFI and LFI. MFI was either going to be an Su-47 derivative or based on the MiG 1.44, which looks a lot like a J-20. LFI early on was between an upgraded Yak 41 VTOL, a Sukhoi Gripen copy and a MiG program I don't know about.
 
Here's a question, the Su27 and Mig 29 entered service in the early/mid 80s and were competitive more or less with the teen series fighters until the F22, Typhoon and Rafale entered service in the mid 2000s. However with a prolonged Cold War these aircraft will likely enter service in the mid 90s.

What will the Soviets do to match such impressive aircraft? Will it be these aircraft that cause the Soviets to go bankrupt?
Wasn’t the su27 more comparable with F4E in terms of avionics/ weapons and mig29 9.12 with Mirage F1 ? So quite inferior to teen fighters

to avoid fighter disparity Soviets need to upgrade mig23/25 with more reliable radars and missiles , yes they are turkeys in close combat but with missiles comparable with AIM9L and AIM7M they might not need to be that good in maneuvering
 
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Wasn’t the su27 more comparable with F4E in terms of avionics/ weapons and mig29 9.12 with Mirage F1 ? So quite inferior to teen fighters

to avoid fighter disparity Soviets need to upgrade mig23/25 with more reliable radars and missiles , yes they are turkeys in close combat but with missiles comparable with AIM9L and AIM7M they might not need to be that good in maneuvering
Um, no? The N001 radar was vastly superior to the APQ-120s on the F-4E - once all the bugs were worked out, anyway, but even in its immature state it most likely outperformed the APQ-120. The MiG-29 was itself comparable to the F-16 in this regard, with the bonus of being BVR-capable. Besides, the Soviets were all set to introduce upgraded variants of both fighters with new and significantly better avionics when the USSR fell.

As far as weapons, the R-73 was superior to contemporary Sidewinder variants, and the R-27 at worst no better than the AIM-7F, and possibly comparable to the AIM-7M.

As far as just upgrading the MiG-23 and MiG-25, yeah, no, bad idea. They were utterly outclassed by the F-15 and were at best equal to the F-16, precisely because of the maneuverability issues and also because they were even worse in the avionics department than the Su-27 and MiG-29. Not to mention the MiG-23's upgrade potential was basically maxed out; even the late-90s upgrade package stuck with the outdated Sapfir radar. The MiG-25? It was already evolving into the MiG-31, which is an entirely new aircraft and demonstrates what needed to be done to make the MiG-25 competitive against the F-15.
 
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SRAM 2 (both the strategic and tactical versions.)

B90 Nuclear Depth Strike Bomb

The UK probably replaces the WE177
WE177 gets built as does SRAM2.

The UK was doing preliminary work on a air launched standoff weapon, I remember some guy bought a MOD PC at auction which had details of it and software specs for adding it to the Tornado.
 
WE177 gets built as does SRAM2.

The UK was doing preliminary work on a air launched standoff weapon, I remember some guy bought a MOD PC at auction which had details of it and software specs for adding it to the Tornado.
Sorry I didn't mean to imply that the WE177 would not have been built and placed in service as it was historically, but I expect it would have been replaced by another air launched nuclear weapon when the WE177 was retired. I agree some form of air launched stand off weapon seems likely. I recall reading about some possible options several decades ago and don't recall all the details that were reported.
 
I meant the WE177 replacement gets built. They would likely use the new core design for multiple weapons free-fall, NDB and for the standoff weapon.
 
Here's a question, the Su27 and Mig 29 entered service in the early/mid 80s and were competitive more or less with the teen series fighters until the F22, Typhoon and Rafale entered service in the mid 2000s. However with a prolonged Cold War these aircraft will likely enter service in the mid 90s.

What will the Soviets do to match such impressive aircraft? Will it be these aircraft that cause the Soviets to go bankrupt?
That would be the MFI and LFI. MFI was either going to be an Su-47 derivative or based on the MiG 1.44, which looks a lot like a J-20. LFI early on was between an upgraded Yak 41 VTOL, a Sukhoi Gripen copy and a MiG program I don't know about.
The Eurocanards (especially with less developped computer architecture if the OTL delays allowed them to implement that) wouldn't have been that unusually powerful. The planned Su-27M and Mig-29M (the latter actually passed state trials in 1991) would have been more or less enough to compete and the proliferation of Mig-29s and Su-27Ms (interested E-Germany and Czechoslovakia) in the rest of the Warsaw Pact would take care of the older Teen fighters.
S-32 (the real Soviet Su-47) and the Mig 1.42 (planned early MFI) would also handle Eurocanards well while reducing the margin of superiority of F-22, and the Mig 1.46 "Soviet J-20" would close the gap, and that's assuming the Soviets don't start PAK-FA in the early 90's. To say nothing of the multitude of proposed lightweight fighters (Sukhoi with one engine, Mig with RD-133 engines...).

Of course any long continuation of the Cold War (beyond 2000 at least) kinda requires the Soviet economy to work well enough that it can fund the cool toys anyway.
Generally I see the 90's as the era of the 2Cs: Consolidation and Convergence. This is a period where 80's programs finally spread outside of the respective factions' cores to consolidate forces on modern technology, and most countries with an arms industry are converging in overall tech level with ever more of the smaller players also churning out modern weaponry. Far from the desequilibrium of the 50s and 60s (only the superpowers are really fine), the 70's (NATO is severely behind schedule), or the 80's (extremely heterogenous forces on both sides).



362267_original.png
The production version of Object 292 "T-80U with LP-83 gun" was to have a welded turret and possibly more revised hull front array, Agava-2 or progress thermals and the powerpack with hydrostatic steering drives, rotating drum recuperators and APU at least. The latter two changes improved specific fuel consumption in operation and when idling respectively, the HST reduced the amount of gear changes, improved agility and improve the life of the transmission units by 50/100%. T-80 was best suited for HSTs due to the peculiarities of the T-72's and T-64's powertrains.

- Challenger 1 with CHARM and TN54 gearbox: substantially improves firepower, barrel life and mechanical accuracy, but still to a degree below Rh 120, more akin to the 2A46M which shares the same limited operating pressure and penetrator length. TN54 gearbox is far more reliable than TN37. It is unknown if more CR2 features were to be retrofitted.

- Chieftain with CHARM: highly dependent on whether the British want to improve some Chiefs in the interim to CR2 fully replacing them.

- The "intended Leopard 2A5": The original plan was to upgrade 1350 Leopard 2s without C-tech composites introduced after 1988. They would have had a slightly less capable version of the wedges (still extremely potent), but would have the hull front addon that was not present on OTL 2A5s. The OTL 2A5 instead chose to match a C-tech hull with an old turret to keep good hull armor, but on less tanks.

- "More 1A5-oids": OTL, freeing so many German Leopard 1A5s allowed the Canadians and Italians to get 1A5 turrets cheaply and Peace Dividends meant Dutch Leopard 1-Vs were directly sold abroad. In reality the plan was to possibly upgrade Leopard C1s while seriously looking at Leopard 2 or M1A1, Italy was to implement a completely in-house FCS upgrade to existing Leopard 1A2s, and the Netherlands were supposed to upgrade 1-Vs to 1-V2s, aka the 1A5 configuration to wait until a replacement tank in 2000-2005.

- French and German Roland SHORAD systems were to be all upgraded to the Roland 3 standard with thermal optics, new electronics, improved radar and for the French a possibly improved APU (and probably AMX-30B2 automotive components). They also cancelled the rearmament to two different missiles: VT1 which is the Crotale NG's missile, or Roland Mach 5 which was very fast and could also work as a kinetic energy missile, with a vastly extended range to 15km. OTL only the Roland 3 missile ever made it (slightly faster, better warhead).

- The successor program to the French SANTAL. This was a self-propelled Mistral missile system for the Rapid Action Force. The SANTAL had been cancelled in July 1989 due to financial constraints and a system that was too heavy and large for the intended VAB or ERC-90 platforms, but a successor program with split early warning and launch platforms was supposed to happen but was cancelled due to the end of the CW.

- Hades nuclear missile: Replacement of the Pluton, it was longer-ranged and more accurate to provide the French more freedom of action to nuke the Soviets on the Rhine without deploying the systems in Germany proper. Cancelled because the nuclear threat disappeared and Germany didn't like that this thing existed.

- Albion plateau modernisation: it was supposed to be modernised in 2005 with either M45 or M5 series ballistic missiles, but was closed early with no modernisation.

- TRIGAT/AC3G ATGM: MILAN and HOT replacement for Germany, France and the UK. Killed when the UK left the program to get Peace Dividends.

- Tigre HAC: French version of the Tiger PAH-2/UHT with the rotor mast optics. Cancelled when the Soviet tank threat died.

- Soviet SP-2000 strategic defence program: Basically a metric shitload of upgrades to existing ICBMs/SLBMs plus 300 Pioner-3 lauchers with double reloads, Ikar, Ost missiles, Pioner-4 missile. Basically the program to make SDI obsolete on arrival.

- So-called "Bomber-90" program: Su-24 replacement with some low-observable features:
unknown.png
 
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Riain

Banned
The Eurocanards (especially with less developped computer architecture if the OTL delays allowed them to implement that) wouldn't have been that unusually powerful. The planned Su-27M and Mig-29M (the latter actually passed state trials in 1991) would have been more or less enough to compete and the proliferation of Mig-29s and Su-27Ms (interested E-Germany and Czechoslovakia) in the rest of the Warsaw Pact would take care of the older Teen fighters.
S-32 (the real Soviet Su-47) and the Mig 1.42 (planned early MFI) would also handle Eurocanards well while reducing the margin of superiority of F-22, and the Mig 1.46 "Soviet J-20" would close the gap, and that's assuming the Soviets don't start PAK-FA in the early 90's. To say nothing of the multitude of proposed lightweight fighters (Sukhoi with one engine, Mig with RD-133 engines...).

By the late 80s the AI24 Foxhunter was becoming mature, the Blue Vixen entered service in 1993 and the ASRAAM in 1998. I'd think that even without a decade of computer development the European fighters would still be pretty tough for the Mig 29 and Su 27 to beat, especially if they received cold war level development like 3d thrust vectoring.
 
ThcUScNavy would still have three different aircraft on the carriers. And F14 or it’s replacement, A6 or it’s replacement and the upgrade FA18 that was designed to still be an FA18 not and F14/18/a6 that is not really as good as any of the individual aircraft.

We would probably have a replacement for the M1 Abrams. either a huge redo or a clean sheet.

Also keep in mind that cutting the B-2 numbers did not stay anywhere near as much as most think a the price give per aircraft is completely fake. It includes the cost of design and development and the tooling and trying to set up the production line divided by the few ther were built. This was a cost that was mot going to change if we built 0 or 1000.
This is like Ford designing a brand new car, building a brand new factory hiring and training the factory staff then stopping production at 50 cars tgus each car cost 10 million and claiming they saved 2 billion by not building the next 200 cars…. The cost to build the car is still only 20k per car. The cost for the set up is gone you can not save that once you spent it.

Also historically most aircraft have a difficult beginning. Problems design issues construction issues cost overruns etc. But often it would be cheeper to spend the extra to get the project working right then to scrap it and start over. Take the RAH-66 it was close to produnction when it was scraped. And now here we are basically reinventing it again because the stop gab needs to be replaced and we don’t have anything to replace it with.
 
By the late 80s the AI24 Foxhunter was becoming mature, the Blue Vixen entered service in 1993 and the ASRAAM in 1998. I'd think that even without a decade of computer development the European fighters would still be pretty tough for the Mig 29 and Su 27 to beat, especially if they received cold war level development like 3d thrust vectoring.
They would be tough, but still in the same class overall. The Soviets were making progress too, and their situation was becoming worse more because the Europeans had caught up. Nonetheless the Eurocanards are smaller than the Su-27 class, which means that the latter can offset any efficiency issue with size. Regardless the 27M was set to get the quite potent N011 radar set. The proliferation of R-73, R-73M, R-27ER and R-77 counters the proliferation of AMRAAM, ASRAAM and MICA.

On that point, the Tornado ADV was supposed to get a weapon systems enhancement program in the 90s which was killed in 1991 in favor of less advanced programs. It's likely the OG program would have stayed. Meanwhile F-16s would have got more weapons integrated, IRST and improved ECM that it never got OTL. Finally the German F-4F ICE may not have been cut: a fully German radar was intended originally but was cancelled in 1990.
We would probably have a replacement for the M1 Abrams. either a huge redo or a clean sheet.
As of 1989, the plans were to produce M1A2 up to FY 1994 at least, but it's likely that production rates would have been actually quite low, as the bulk of the 2926 planned A2s were to be remanufactured basic M1s. The Block III tank of the AFV/AMS program was to enter production in FY97.
 
The Eurocanards (especially with less developped computer architecture if the OTL delays allowed them to implement that) wouldn't have been that unusually powerful. The planned Su-27M and Mig-29M (the latter actually passed state trials in 1991) would have been more or less enough to compete and the proliferation of Mig-29s and Su-27Ms (interested E-Germany and Czechoslovakia) in the rest of the Warsaw Pact would take care of the older Teen fighters.
S-32 (the real Soviet Su-47) and the Mig 1.42 (planned early MFI) would also handle Eurocanards well while reducing the margin of superiority of F-22, and the Mig 1.46 "Soviet J-20" would close the gap, and that's assuming the Soviets don't start PAK-FA in the early 90's. To say nothing of the multitude of proposed lightweight fighters (Sukhoi with one engine, Mig with RD-133 engines...).

Of course any long continuation of the Cold War (beyond 2000 at least) kinda requires the Soviet economy to work well enough that it can fund the cool toys anyway.
Generally I see the 90's as the era of the 2Cs: Consolidation and Convergence. This is a period where 80's programs finally spread outside of the respective factions' cores to consolidate forces on modern technology, and most countries with an arms industry are converging in overall tech level with ever more of the smaller players also churning out modern weaponry. Far from the desequilibrium of the 50s and 60s (only the superpowers are really fine), the 70's (NATO is severely behind schedule), or the 80's (extremely heterogenous forces on both sides).



362267_original.png
The production version of Object 292 "T-80U with LP-83 gun" was to have a welded turret and possibly more revised hull front array, Agava-2 or progress thermals and the powerpack with hydrostatic steering drives, rotating drum recuperators and APU at least. The latter two changes improved specific fuel consumption in operation and when idling respectively, the HST reduced the amount of gear changes, improved agility and improve the life of the transmission units by 50/100%. T-80 was best suited for HSTs due to the peculiarities of the T-72's and T-64's powertrains.

- Challenger 1 with CHARM and TN54 gearbox: substantially improves firepower, barrel life and mechanical accuracy, but still to a degree below Rh 120, more akin to the 2A46M which shares the same limited operating pressure and penetrator length. TN54 gearbox is far more reliable than TN37. It is unknown if more CR2 features were to be retrofitted.

- Chieftain with CHARM: highly dependent on whether the British want to improve some Chiefs in the interim to CR2 fully replacing them.

- The "intended Leopard 2A5": The original plan was to upgrade 1350 Leopard 2s without C-tech composites introduced after 1988. They would have had a slightly less capable version of the wedges (still extremely potent), but would have the hull front addon that was not present on OTL 2A5s. The OTL 2A5 instead chose to match a C-tech hull with an old turret to keep good hull armor, but on less tanks.

- "More 1A5-oids": OTL, freeing so many German Leopard 1A5s allowed the Canadians and Italians to get 1A5 turrets cheaply and Peace Dividends meant Dutch Leopard 1-Vs were directly sold abroad. In reality the plan was to possibly upgrade Leopard C1s while seriously looking at Leopard 2 or M1A1, Italy was to implement a completely in-house FCS upgrade to existing Leopard 1A2s, and the Netherlands were supposed to upgrade 1-Vs to 1-V2s, aka the 1A5 configuration to wait until a replacement tank in 2000-2005.

- French and German Roland SHORAD systems were to be all upgraded to the Roland 3 standard with thermal optics, new electronics, improved radar and for the French a possibly improved APU (and probably AMX-30B2 automotive components). They also cancelled the rearmament to two different missiles: VT1 which is the Crotale NG's missile, or Roland Mach 5 which was very fast and could also work as a kinetic energy missile, with a vastly extended range to 15km. OTL only the Roland 3 missile ever made it (slightly faster, better warhead).

- The successor program to the French SANTAL. This was a self-propelled Mistral missile system for the Rapid Action Force. The SANTAL had been cancelled in July 1989 due to financial constraints and a system that was too heavy and large for the intended VAB or ERC-90 platforms, but a successor program with split early warning and launch platforms was supposed to happen but was cancelled due to the end of the CW.

- Hades nuclear missile: Replacement of the Pluton, it was longer-ranged and more accurate to provide the French more freedom of action to nuke the Soviets on the Rhine without deploying the systems in Germany proper. Cancelled because the nuclear threat disappeared and Germany didn't like that this thing existed.

- Albion plateau modernisation: it was supposed to be modernised in 2005 with either M45 or M5 series ballistic missiles, but was closed early with no modernisation.

- TRIGAT/AC3G ATGM: MILAN and HOT replacement for Germany, France and the UK. Killed when the UK left the program to get Peace Dividends.

- Tigre HAC: French version of the Tiger PAH-2/UHT with the rotor mast optics. Cancelled when the Soviet tank threat died.

- Soviet SP-2000 strategic defence program: Basically a metric shitload of upgrades to existing ICBMs/SLBMs plus 300 Pioner-3 lauchers with double reloads, Ikar, Ost missiles, Pioner-4 missile. Basically the program to make SDI obsolete on arrival.

- So-called "Bomber-90" program: Su-24 replacement with some low-observable features:
unknown.png
[/SPOILE
By the late 80s the AI24 Foxhunter was becoming mature, the Blue Vixen entered service in 1993 and the ASRAAM in 1998. I'd think that even without a decade of computer development the European fighters would still be pretty tough for the Mig 29 and Su 27 to beat, especially if they received cold war level development like 3d thrust vectoring.

Also AMRAAM was arriving and would be integrated into a lot of older airframes as a matter of urgency. NATO was also seeing improvements of their dogfight missiles with AIM9M and X in development plus ASRAAM and IRIS-T etc coming on line making the NATO legacy fleet a much tougher proposition in close combat. Plus, NATO had a significant edge in training over the Russians.
 

Nick P

Donor
There was a lot of talk about the many variants of the V-22 Osprey that could be. Mostly a sales pitch by Bell-Boeing but they included:

EV-22 AEW version, often seen with Royal Navy markings.
HV-22 US Coast Guard search and rescue
SV-22 US Navy anti-submarine platform
VV-22 Marine One VIP version

The US Army were supposed to get V-22s but dropped out of the program on cost grounds. They went for more UH-60s and CH-47s instead.
 
There was a lot of talk about the many variants of the V-22 Osprey that could be. Mostly a sales pitch by Bell-Boeing but they included:

EV-22 AEW version, often seen with Royal Navy markings.
HV-22 US Coast Guard search and rescue
SV-22 US Navy anti-submarine platform
VV-22 Marine One VIP version

The US Army were supposed to get V-22s but dropped out of the program on cost grounds. They went for more UH-60s and CH-47s instead.
V-22s were a marginal fit for the Army’s tactical air assault mission for a few reasons. First, the CH-47 can carry more troops or cargo, especially sling loads like artillery, vehicles, or cargo. Second, the UH-60 and CH-47 have superior NoE performance to the V-22, as they can better make use of terrain features and masking, increasing survivability. Third, the CH-47 has superior internal load capability, able to accommodate HMMWV, 105mm, or 463L pallets, unlike the V-22. Finally, the CH-47 can recover any downed aircraft in the air assault task force, including other CH47s, whereas the V-22 cannot self recover another V-22.
 
By the late 80s the AI24 Foxhunter was becoming mature, the Blue Vixen entered service in 1993 and the ASRAAM in 1998. I'd think that even without a decade of computer development the European fighters would still be pretty tough for the Mig 29 and Su 27 to beat, especially if they received cold war level development like 3d thrust vectoring.

They would be tough, but still in the same class overall. The Soviets were making progress too, and their situation was becoming worse more because the Europeans had caught up. Nonetheless the Eurocanards are smaller than the Su-27 class, which means that the latter can offset any efficiency issue with size. Regardless the 27M was set to get the quite potent N011 radar set. The proliferation of R-73, R-73M, R-27ER and R-77 counters the proliferation of AMRAAM, ASRAAM and MICA.

I think as a general rule of thumb assuming that the Soviets will have less efficient electronics requiring them either to accept lower performance for a comparable weight or simply putting bigger systems into their planes to match Western performance specs is going to a continue as that's a result of the larger consumer electronics sector in the West and isn't going to go away. It's also probably safe to assume that the OTL Soviet advantage in engine development is likely to continue. Meaning that come the ATL 2000's the Soviets will be fielding comparable systems that are just that bit bigger than their NATO equivalent.
 
Might I ask what Soviet Union/Eastern Bloc weapons, vehicles and equipment were in development before the whole thing collapsed?

I'm intrigued by that idea.
 

bobbins

Donor
The Last War timeline by @Bernard Woolley on the BigOne website has quite a bit on weapons in use as a later Cold War turns hot.

and it’s an awesome read - although some of the earlier bits are missing.
 
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I meant the WE177 replacement gets built. They would likely use the new core design for multiple weapons free-fall, NDB and for the standoff weapon.
There was severe concern in the UK nuclear weapons establishment about what was going to happen in the 1990s. The timelines were such that the WE.177 replacement warhead and the warhead for Trident needed to be designed and produced simultaneously, and there wasn't industrial capacity for both.

The likely result, given that the strategic deterrent would have got priority, would be that WE.177 is either extended into the 2000s, or replaced with US weapons under a dual-key arrangement. Neither is a very satisfactory solution.
 
No, not getting caseless ammo in any small arms. Caseless ammo was a nightmare, if the propellent block got chipped or cracked it turned into a plasma cutter inside the chamber converting it into a scrap metal. If it got damaged it was a bugger to clear a damaged "round" taking up to 10 times longer than a conventional round. The G11 was stupidly complex and the Steyr flechette's were just useless. I doubt anyone apart from Special forces was going to have much demand for 10mm.
So the G36 AKA "the rifle that, once warm, can't shoot streight" fiasco would still have happened ITTL?
 
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