von Spee’s cruisers based out of Namibia (German South West Africa)

[I want to learn]

What if by design or happenstance a German cruiser squadron was in modern Nambia when World War 1 started?

- Germany had minor naval bases at Swakopmund and Luderitz Bay
- Tsingtao was historically the base of SMS Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, but was vacated immediately by major German ships
- Tsingtao was placed under siege and ultimately captured by a largely Japanese force that is unlikely to be used elsewhere
- it took into 1915 until German South West Africa was occupied by South African forces
- Scharnhorst and Gneisenau would be located closer to home or North Atlantic trade routes

Also, it doesn’t specifically have to be Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, perhaps Goeben or Von der Tann is touring Africa at the time war breaks out, I think the threat would be similar.

 

[naraic]

The China station of the Royal Navy (historically based in Singapore and Hong Kong) would become the South Africa station.

Australian troops would deploy around South America or through the Panama canal and HMAS Australia would shuffle into the Indian ocean to help hunt the German forces.

 

[kham_coc]

The China station of the Royal Navy (historically based in Singapore and Hong Kong) would become the South Africa station.

Unlikely - the uk had plenty of concerns in Asia not related to Germany.

 

[I want to learn]

The China station of the Royal Navy (historically based in Singapore and Hong Kong) would become the South Africa station.

Australian troops would deploy around South America or through the Panama canal and HMAS Australia would shuffle into the Indian ocean to help hunt the German forces.

Even if the China station was completely stripped of British warships and they were all reallocated to the South Africa station (which I think is unlikely), that amounts to a squadron only marginally stronger than Cradock's at Coronel. The China station had a squadron of battleships at one point pre-war but major units had been withdrawn to home waters due to the buildup of the German High Seas Fleet. I think the historic China station was pretty much drawn down as much as possible already.

I also don't think that Australian troops would have been able to go through the Panama canal. I think HMAS Australia wanted to pass through IOTL, but was not allowed to.

 

[Exostrike]

The problem is the Germans are simply pinned in by surrounding british bases and squadrons

https://imgur.com/PxK6Pwv

As in Asia they can either fight an ever increasing naval force and be destroyed/bottled up or return to Germany, running the gauntlet of the british fleet and around the british isles and return via the north sea. While the they might be able to tie down colonial naval units for a while realistically they will be destroyed eventually so most likely a very early return to germany after some raiding work. Possibly a battle cruiser skirmish in the north sea to provide cover and then a heroes welcome.

 

[YYJ]

What would be their wartime mission?

German South West Africa was not really important, and did not warrant forces to defend it.

Cruisers based out of GSWA would be in a position to threaten Entente merchant traffic to the east coast of South America, and South Africa. And traffic going around both the Cape of Good Hope and Cape Horn. This would likely provoke a shipping stop through those important waters, which would hurt Entente manufacturers.

OTL, the main effect of Von Spees main squadron was to cause all the Entente warships in the Pacific to be concentrated to escort Anzac troopships as they rolled up the German Pacific colonies. If only Emden and some armed liners were in the Pacific, then Patey would have a freer hand to detach Australia and chase down Von Spee.

A German cruiser squadron based in the Atlantic would not draw Japanese warships to counter it, which would mean more work for the RN.

The German Armoured Cruisers were not the right ships for commerce raiding, they used too much coal. Perhaps they could bombard the RN base in South Africa (Durban?) but this was defended by 9.2” coastal artillery.

 

[Driftless]

What would be their wartime mission?

German South West Africa was not really important, and did not warrant forces to defend it.

Cruisers based out of GSWA would be in a position to threaten Entente merchant traffic to the east coast of South America, and South Africa. And traffic going around both the Cape of Good Hope and Cape Horn. This would likely provoke a shipping stop through those important waters, which would hurt Entente manufacturers.

A German cruiser squadron based in the Atlantic would not draw Japanese warships to counter it, which would mean more work for the RN.

The German Armoured Cruisers were not the right ships for commerce raiding, they used too much coal.

(snipped segments)

Would some of the German Light Cruisers been better candidates for that South Atlantic raiding role? The assumption being that they would be expendable resources, but causing considerable damage till they're shot to pieces

 

[naraic]

(snipped segments)

Would some of the German Light Cruisers been better candidates for that South Atlantic raiding role? The assumption being that they would be expendable resources, but causing considerable damage till they're shot to pieces

The German High Seas Fleet had a desperate shortage of light cruisers (so did the British by the way). In theory a cruiser could have been a decent raider but it would have been difficult to pry more light cruisers out of the High Seas Fleet.

 

[YYJ]

The German High Seas Fleet had a desperate shortage of light cruisers (so did the British by the way). In theory a cruiser could have been a decent raider but it would have been difficult to pry more light cruisers out of the High Seas Fleet.

OTL, Germany started the war with 6 light cruisers overseas. Nurnberg, Leipzig, Emden, Konigsberg, Dresden, and Karlsrhue. More than that would be hard to justify to the fleet. Dresden and Karlsrhue were in the middle of an exchange, so the intent was to have 5 light cruisers on foreign station.

 

[YYJ]

Germany had big plans to equip a ton of fast liners as commerce raiders, but when the time came they only managed to deploy a small fraction of what they had.

 

[YYJ]

Germany had big plans to equip a ton of fast liners as commerce raiders, but when the time came they only managed to deploy a small fraction of what they had.

I have a list of the liners, but not on me.

 

[Catspoke]

I think Doulea in Kamerun is the more defensible base if the Germans want to commit naval resources to defending something. The southwest African ports are a little more exposed.

 

[I want to learn]

I think Doulea in Kamerun is the more defensible base if the Germans want to commit naval resources to defending something. The southwest African ports are a little more exposed.

I was going to say Douala was captured too early (in September 1914) to be a useful base, but on further investigation I realized that it was captured in an amphibious attack by a fairly unimpressive flotilla. If Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were in the Atlantic, that operation might have been delayed. I wonder if the German armored would have begun picking off the weaker British cruisers earlier in their campaign, rather than in November. Basically, what would have happened if Coronel was months earlier? If von Spee wins his victory (and expends most his ammunition) he's in a better position to sail for home, and elude and battlecruisers that get sent after him.

 

[Catspoke]

Interesting that a Scharnhorst AC was right about on the edge of what could fit at Luderitz, LCs would fit easy. It is a shallow port 8.75 meters with a hard rock bottom. It would be the nicest place in Africa to base climate wise though for the Germans.

 

[Catspoke]

I was going to say Douala was captured too early (in September 1914) to be a useful base, but on further investigation I realized that it was captured in an amphibious attack by a fairly unimpressive flotilla. If Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were in the Atlantic, that operation might have been delayed. I wonder if the German armored would have begun picking off the weaker British cruisers earlier in their campaign, rather than in November. Basically, what would have happened if Coronel was months earlier? If von Spee wins his victory (and expends most his ammunition) he's in a better position to sail for home, and elude and battlecruisers that get sent after him.

I wonder if it would be best for the ACs to fight defending a colonial port Emden style. Their too old for a line of battle in the north sea. Even if defeated defending the port the guns and sailors would be useful defending the interior of the colony.

It's hard to get home. It would be a morale boost if they did, but seems like a 10 percent sort of chance. Coal would have to be arranged off of the Canaries and then some northern Norwegian port for the dash home. Possible but tricky.

Closer to OTL, the S+G actually helping defend Tsingtao might have helped the place last longer.

You could fortify Doulea with a few guns and mines and make it a pretty tough place to take if the Germans were interested, with a AC in the port it would take a major effort to overcome.

 

[I want to learn]

Interesting that a Scharnhorst AC was right about on the edge of what could fit at Luderitz, LCs would fit easy. It is a shallow port 8.75 meters with a hard rock bottom.

How do you know these parameters of the port?

 

[Catspoke]

A simple Google search of depth of Luderitz gives 8.75 m, and a bunch of interesting articles about possible expansion of the port. The British grabbed Walvis bay for a good reason I guess, best natural port around.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Would basing it in German East Africa be a better bet? Placing the squadron in a position to interdict traffic from India, Malaya and Australia to/from the Suez Canal. And possibly that from the Gulf too. Might be able to launch an assault in Zanzibar too.

Having a senior moment so i can't recollect what ports are available there. Must be a few but could they take the armoured cruisers?

 

[Dorknought]

A German presence in East Asia on the Chinese coast was far more beneficial to the German Empire than in the middle of nowhere. BTW Tsingtao was the only part of the German Empire administered by the Navy rather than the Colonial office. The Navy Law required 8 Large Cruisers to be based overseas but this was only 3 in 1914.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

A German presence in East Asia on the Chinese coast was far more beneficial to the German Empire than in the middle of nowhere. BTW Tsingtao was the only part of the German Empire administered by the Navy rather than the Colonial office. The Navy Law required 8 Large Cruisers to be based overseas but this was only 3 in 1914.

Are the three Gneisenau, Goeben and Scharnhorst?

OTL, Germany started the war with 6 light cruisers overseas. Nurnberg, Leipzig, Emden, Konigsberg, Dresden, and Karlsrhue. More than that would be hard to justify to the fleet. Dresden and Karlsrhue were in the middle of an exchange, so the intent was to have 5 light cruisers on foreign station.

If @Dorknought is counting Goeben as one of the large cruisers on foreign stations we should also include Breslau for a "like to like comparison". That makes a total of 7 light cruisers on foreign stations.

The original Naval Law of 1898 was for 3 large and 10 small cruisers in the foreign service fleet. The number of small cruisers was never changed, but the number of large cruisers was increased to 8 in 1906.

I'm unable to provide a reference for the following because I can't remember where I read it... The foreign service fleet included ships in Germany which were refitting or working up and ships in transit to and from overseas stations as well as the ships that were actually "on station". That accounts for some of the difference between the number of ships that were overseas at the outbreak of the Great War and the number of ships in the foreign service fleet in the navy laws.