Assumptions Necessary to Create a Plausible Axis Victory

Garrison

Donor
My thinking on Dunkirk is this. If there is no evacuation, then there is a least a possibility that in early 1941, the UK decide against sending troops to Greece and this (in combination with better Spring weather) enables Barbarossa to start 6 - 8 weeks earlier. The loss of the additional men in Europe if there is no evacuation may 1. make the British more careful with conserving manpower and 2. more gun shy in terms of putting men on the continent.
Well better weather puts it outside the scope of this forum, also this assumes that you buy the claim that it was the Balkans that somehow delayed Barbarossa and not German logistics and also that it was the weather that derailed Barbarossa all by itself, rather than the Wehrmacht reaching the maximum range their supply system could support while having underestimated the strength of the Red Army by a factor of three or four.
 
Here's one possibility: have one of the other major powers join the Axis (probably after going fascist themselves).
 
And some of these assumptions are flawed at best. 1 only works if you are willing to accept Roosevelt aided Britain out of some Anglophilic tendency and not because of US strategic interests. 2 ignores the fact that no one expected the evacuation to succeed in the way it did. 3 Turkey has little to offer strategically and taking Moscow is a major challenge give German logistics. 4 likewise requires you to believe Hitler's later claims about why Barbarossa started in June, which are dubious to say. And you can keep going. The reality is the limitations of German resources and industry means Nazi Germany massively overperformed in the first years of the war, helped by the poor performance of the Allies.
The big problem with invading the USSR is logistics. As you move further and further east, you have to tote men and materials further and further over land using more and more fuel and vehicles. One way to mitigate this is sea based transport. If Turkey joins the Axis, then they can let Italian navy units into the Black Sea and the Axis can dominate the Black Sea. This creates the opportunity to ship things long distances by water less expensively and faster (and with less potential for partisan interference) than by land. This creates the potential for actually taking the Caucasus region and depriving the USSR of the Baku oil. So the Turkey issue is an important one.
 
Someone brought up in another thread the Japanese discovery the oil fields in Manchuria. That might keep the Japanese from pursuing war with the US.
As it was, the US won WW2. Its casualties were light and it ended the war significantly stronger than when it began. But Japan that:
discovers the oil in Manchuria in the early 30s and develops it, and basically just takes as much of China that it can digest, avoiding a general embargo from the US (and war with the US) could very well displace the US as the actual winner of WW2. This is especially so if Japan is able to negotiate bribes from the USSR in return for not attacking it.

The German ideas of Lebensraum were pretty ludicrous. Germany just didn't have the TFR to cash the checks. Japan on the other hand had that to spare---imagining Japan effectively settler colonizing a significant chunk of China isn't hard.
 
Well better weather puts it outside the scope of this forum, also this assumes that you buy the claim that it was the Balkans that somehow delayed Barbarossa and not German logistics and also that it was the weather that derailed Barbarossa all by itself, rather than the Wehrmacht reaching the maximum range their supply system could support while having underestimated the strength of the Red Army by a factor of three or four.
Is it true that weather is outside the scope of this forum? I don't see anything about it in the rules but I am not enough of a regular to be confident that I am not missing something.
 
As it was, the US won WW2. Its casualties were light and it ended the war significantly stronger than when it began. But Japan that:
discovers the oil in Manchuria in the early 30s and develops it, and basically just takes as much of China that it can digest, avoiding a general embargo from the US (and war with the US) could very well displace the US as the actual winner of WW2. This is especially so if Japan is able to negotiate bribes from the USSR in return for not attacking it.

The German ideas of Lebensraum were pretty ludicrous. Germany just didn't have the TFR to cash the checks. Japan on the other hand had that to spare---imagining Japan effectively settler colonizing a significant chunk of China isn't hard.

I think there were plans to intensively settle Manchuria, but I haven't been able to find much information about them that you can't dig up on Wikipedia.
 
I think there were plans to intensively settle Manchuria, but I haven't been able to find much information about them that you can't dig up on Wikipedia.
Look up Japan's TFR in the 1930s, it's close to 5. With a TFR in that ballpark, and the expectation that it'll probably increase if you're victorious, you can plan to do what I'll call 'replacement style ethnic cleansing'---as in, you come in and displace mostly by demographic means the existing population. This is close to the US model of ethnic cleansing. If you haven't got that level of TFR, you're stuck with over the top Nazi Generalplan-style ethnic cleansing, where you basically have to kill most of the population that you're going to ethnically cleanse. If you've got an even higher TFR, you can ethnically cleanse without even having an actual plan for doing so (some would argue that's the true US model in the 1800s).
 
I don't really understand why the idea of UK and US choosing to live with Hitler after 1939 is so crazy.

Halifax tried to remove Churchill as PM in order to negotiate and was clearly the main alternative to him. With complete loss of Dunkirk, the momentum is on his side. Hitler isn't stupid, either. Soviets are his main enemy and cutting a deal to keep the British out for now will be obviously advantageous to that effort. Allowing them to keep the Empire should do it.

At the same time, American public opinion is massively isolationist. The Neutrality Acts are constraining what little Roosevelt can do. If UK is no longer fighting in 1941, then even Pearl Harbour won't lead the Americans to suddenly ally with communists, especially when Hitler won't bother declaring war on them.

Moscow getting taken in 1941 is also not at all far-fetched. This would destroy Soviet moral. If Japan chooses to wait out Pearl Harbour and go at the Soviets first, then a two-front war across a continent with most major cities lost puts the logistic disadvantage on what will increasingly be a partisan insurgency. There could well be a coup against Stalin, leading to further chaos in the Soviet ranks. Maybe the insurgency keeps on smoldering, but it's not an immediate threat anymore.

After Germany gets the bomb in 1946 (also not far-fetched), the US poses no risk at all anymore and the Soviet insurgency is finally wiped out through an atomic holocaust.
 
You can make a plausible/feasible TL where the Reich defeats the USSR and the prospect of spending an ocean of blood and treasure makes the WAllies decide to make a peace of sorts with a mere handful of PODs that don’t require sheer luck or completely different conditions like the weather changing or a different US President.
FDR was not going to negotiate a peace deal other than unconditional surrender. He was very clear on this, and he also greenlit the Manhattan Project so yes, I would say getting the western allies to agree to that would require a different US President.
 
FDR was not going to negotiate a peace deal other than unconditional surrender
As has been discussed in other threads and by other knowledgeable users no one can say for certain what FDR would have definitely done if the USSR was knocked out and the war continued as the prospect of millions of casualties loomed over the WAllied leadership. You can make an argument either way and both outcomes are plausible. They were human beings, not cold blooded robots in shining armor intent on slaying the evil dragon no matter what like something out of a comic book.
 
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Garrison

Donor
The big problem with invading the USSR is logistics. As you move further and further east, you have to tote men and materials further and further over land using more and more fuel and vehicles. One way to mitigate this is sea based transport. If Turkey joins the Axis, then they can let Italian navy units into the Black Sea and the Axis can dominate the Black Sea. This creates the opportunity to ship things long distances by water less expensively and faster (and with less potential for partisan interference) than by land. This creates the potential for actually taking the Caucasus region and depriving the USSR of the Baku oil. So the Turkey issue is an important one.

Except we have had this discussion and Turkey is just another ally that Germany would have to prop up and its infrastructure doesn't support large scale German operations. If anything the Black Sea becomes another area of vulnerability for the resource limited Wehrmacht to cover.

Is it true that weather is outside the scope of this forum? I don't see anything about it in the rules but I am not enough of a regular to be confident that I am not missing something.
I think its outside the bounds for post-1900 but I stand to be corrected and in this case I don't it actually had as much of an impact as some liked to claim after the war.
 
As has been discussed in other threads and by other knowledgeable users no one can say for certain what FDR would have definitely done if the USSR was knocked out and the war continued as the prospect of millions of casualties loomed over the WAllied leadership. You can make an argument either way and both outcomes are plausible. They were human beings, not cold blooded robots in shining armor intent on slaying the evil dragon no matter what.
Merely making an argument doesn't make something plausible. Even with the USSR knocked out, the Nazis would still be facing supply shortages as the infrastructure to extract and transport the resources of eastern Europe would be destroyed and the western allies would still blockade Nazi-occupied Europe and prevail in North Africa. Then the Nazis would face the issue of actually garrisoning their conquests while facing attacks by partisans. There's the fact that you can't heavily fortify the entire coast. There's the issue of nukes and firebombs. British intelligence and American production far exceeded their German counterparts. There is no indication that the carnage made America consider peace talks, and Britain would only do so over Churchill's dead body. We do have FDR going on record (to thunderous applause) saying that the American people would fight to "absolute victory." At the Casablanca Conference FDR insisted on unconditional surrender. There is no evidence that he would cry uncle and much to the contrary.
 
The first time the Nazi's defeated a Great Power, the USA triggered the 2 Ocean Navy Act which was then used to smash Japan and also gave the US an 18 month headstart that when warmed up, built a shitload of carriers followed by a shitload of landing craft.
Exactly. If the USA gets involved, even "only" economically, then axis can't win.
 
the reality is that after Dec 7th 1941 Germany/Japan CANT win. The US alone was powerfull enough if they chose to pay the price to degeat both Germany and Japan and after the attack on Dec 7th the US was pissed enough to pay the price. Add in GB and Canada and Australia and co and the Axis is doomed. Even if the USSR falls

The US ultimately had more manufacturing then the ret of the world combined. You cant avoid that. By 1943 the US was cutting back. A couple years ago I worked in a building that was supposed to get an addition in 1944 (early) to expand production (it built parts for Carbines) but the expansion was canceled because the production increase was not needed. (i have seen the documents). So the US actually slowed down.

And as for GB giving up. It is slightly possible. For a very. very short window. But not likly.
What is not possible is getting GB to a cept a hard peace, They NEVER were in such a position to be forced to accept a hard treaty.

Also just because someone thinks something does not mean it is so. Nothing Japan or Germany can do will EVER result in Japan defeating the US military and winning the war, And Germany will NEVER succeed in invading GB. Admittedly people at the time may not understand that but just because a caveman didn't understand Physics does mot change how a nuclear bomb works.

So it is theoretically possible to con GB into giving up the odds are extremely against it. It is also possible to keep the US out of war with Germany. But Germany cant force GB to agree to terms, GB WONT ever agree to hard terms, and Germany can NEVER invade GB or Canada or any other significant part of the Empire. And once Japan hits Peril Harbor all bets are off. The US is NOT letting Japan get away with it and ultimately Japan can not defeat the US. And on e the US joins in GB is not going to suffer enough doubt to agree to terms.
Frankly the average citizen in GB is not willing to give up at any given point. Do odds are GB will never agree to terms, but i tgink there was a very short window that if offered good terms and if things were going a bit different that the government if of GB may accept generous terms if offered them.
If we assume Dunkirk fails completly, The USSR collapses (say Stalin has a heart attack and his replacements get into fighting over his job) Japan DOWs GB (and not the US) and hits hard and Germany offers good terms (GB keeps everything, gets its troops back and France will have to disarm but will be unoccupied) then i think there is a Very Short window this may be accepted assuming Churchill is not in the picture,
But we need so many PODs that this is frankly rediculus,
 
The US ultimately had more manufacturing then the ret of the world combined. You cant avoid that. By 1943 the US was cutting back.

Asteroid 69230 Hermes (a pair of 500m stony-iron rocks) came very close to Earth in April 1942 ; have it hit Ohio, knocking the U.S. out of the war?
 

David Flin

Gone Fishin'
Asteroid 69230 Hermes (a pair of 500m stony-iron rocks) came very close to Earth in April 1942 ; have it hit Ohio, knocking the U.S. out of the war?

Having only just proof-read a book on Apocalypses (How it Works: Apocalypse, by Andy Cooke, due for release in about a week), a 500m asteroid impact on the Earth falls into Category C events, Civilisation Ending.

Such an impact would knock the US out of the War. It would also end civilisation as we know it, with probable extinction of humanity. Which would mean no Axis victory.
 
Having only just proof-read a book on Apocalypses (How it Works: Apocalypse, by Andy Cooke, due for release in about a week), a 500m asteroid impact on the Earth falls into Category C events, Civilisation Ending.

Such an impact would knock the US out of the War. It would also end civilisation as we know it, with probable extinction of humanity. Which would mean no Axis victory.

Has a pretty good calculator for things like this. When I fed in values reasonably close to these asteroids, I get 2 events that will pretty solidly trash 2 areas of around 100 mile radii. In all likelihood that wouldn't end even the US as a civilization, but it would almost certainly knock the US out of WW2.
 

mial42

Gone Fishin'
Asteroid 69230 Hermes (a pair of 500m stony-iron rocks) came very close to Earth in April 1942 ; have it hit Ohio, knocking the U.S. out of the war?
Divine intervention to save the Nazis... would make for a good short story. If Hitler was wildly popular after the Fall of France, he'd probably be deified if that happened.
 
Divine intervention to save the Nazis... would make for a good short story. If Hitler was wildly popular after the Fall of France, he'd probably be deified if that happened.

Except the subsequent asteroid winter would lead to crop failures and fuel shortages in Germany, while halting any eastward advances. Hitler can't invade Russia in the summer of 1942 if there isn't a summer of 1942.

[ unless he's stupid enough to demand Fall Blau proceed as scheduled, despite the fact it's snowing in August ]
 
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