W.I. - no Hs 129 attacker?

[tomo pauk]

An often talked about German aircraft, be it about it's capabilities to kill armor (when air superiority can be achieved), or about perspective upgrades like a better engine, or about the still-born 'A' version. So let's stipulate that Germany does not go the way of single-purpose small 2-engined attacker (this also kills the attack version of the Fw 189), but the needs for an frontline attacker are met with other design(s), be it spin-offs from historical aircraft of the day or whatever we can think of.

Rules: engines available to Germany historically are to be used, same for guns/bomb/rockets, use of materials and aerodynamics of the day, 1- or 2-seater, 1- or 2-engined.
Extra points for a simple and efficient design, or for a design that lug both bombs and good guns' armament in the same time. Or, for an attacker that is not cold meat on the table for enemy fighters even when bombs/rockets are dropped/fired.

 

[Turrosh Mak]

Does the FW 190F series fill the bill?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The obvious alterative is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_187

 

[McPherson]

The obvious alterative is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_187

View attachment 604381

That thing has an invertible tail? Not only is that feature Messerschmidt dumb, it is Junkers insane.

"Hans, look behind you."

"What do you mean? Is there a Spitfire back there, Gunther?"

"No. Our tail just popped off."

"Well, we are headed for the devil, nose first, Gunther."

"The ground?"

"Nein, the ocean."

"!@# !@#$ Junkers and their gimmicks."

 

[ric350]

How about the BV 141? Plenty of room to mount a BK 3.7 in the crew pod.

ric350

 

[McPherson]

How about the BV 141? Plenty of room to mount a BK 3.7 in the crew pod.

ric350

"Gunther, why do you hate the BV 141?"

"Have you ever flown one, Hans?"

"No."

"You are always correcting with right rudder and your left leg gets tired. Also you cannot dive bomb with the damn thing and if you look to your left, you will have about 2 seconds before the Russian n00b in his Yak 5 waves at you before he shoots you down and makes ace."

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

That thing has an invertible tail? Not only is that feature Messerschmidt dumb, it is Junkers insane.

"Hans, look behind you."

"What do you mean? Is there a Spitfire back there, Gunther?"

"No. Our tail just popped off."

"Well, we are headed for the devil, nose first, Gunther."

"The ground?"

"Nein, the ocean."

"!@# !@#$ Junkers and their gimmicks."

I doubt that particular feature would ever leave the drawing board as I hate to think what rotating the tail plane while in flight would do to the aircraft, but the rest of it seems sound enough.

 

[McPherson]

I doubt that particular feature would ever leave the drawing board as I hate to think what rotating the tail plane while in flight would do to the aircraft, but the rest of it seems sound enough.

But... PLP, crazy stuff like that happened. Refer to the BV 141 above.

What I wish the Germans had tried...

That would be something right in Fatso's ballpark. He was just dumb enough to try it.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The obvious alterative is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_187

View attachment 604381

"It is not known how the aircraft would have handled with the tail rotated"

I am more interested in the impact it had 'whilst rotating'

Bat

Shit

Crazy

 

[Count of Crisco]

But... PLP, crazy stuff like that happened. Refer to the BV 141 above.

What I wish the Germans had tried...

That would be something right in Fatso's ballpark. He was just dumb enough to try it.

In my time line I have the Chileans purchase a few of these planes. Thinking they are a great idea (look at all those big guns, how can we loose?) but it soon turns out they are terrible. If I remember the plane was intended as a bomber escort, fighter and medium bomber?

 

[McPherson]

In my time line I have the Chileans purchase a few of these planes. Thinking they are a great idea (look at all those big guns, how can we loose?) but it soon turns out they are terrible. If I remember the plane was intended as a bomber escort, fighter and medium bomber?

The poorly written article describes it as an "area defense interceptor" as first designed.

The Bell FM Airacuda was designed as an interceptor (bomber destroyer) by Bob Woods. Each Bell FM Airacuda cost $219,000 with a program cost of $3.6 million. With a first flight on September 1, 1937 and an introduction to the field on February 23, 1940 the Bell FM Airacuda was retired in 1942. Bell Aircraft created the FM Airacuda in a strong effort to break into the aviation business. With the FM Airacuda Bell had an idea for a long range bomber interceptor. One fully operational Airacuda squadron was created, and flew from 1938 until 1940. Funds were gathered, but never spent, for the acquirement of another group of Airacudas. Major design flaws and a problematic operational history gave the aircraft a reputation for being a "hangar queen." Near the end of its run, the FM Airacuda was primarily used for photograph opportunities; always being accompanied by a chase plane for safety. Later the Airacudas were dispersed to various airfields so that pilots could fly the strange aircraft and add it to their log books. The FM Airacuda was displayed at the

1940 World's Fair in New York. With few pilots interested in flying the strange aircraft, the Airacuda saw limited flight. Although there were plans to modify the Airacuda's airframe and installing more powerful engines the FM Airacuda was removed from inventory despite the fears of bomber attacks which the Airacuda was designed to prevent.

It had strange pitch inputs and it was kind of nose heavy in landings and takeoffs. What fascinates me is that Major Seversky in his book "Victory Through Airpower" published in 1941 describes a "bomber destroyer" with this flying garbage example as what he means by the term. Bob Woods must have been as insane as "Pretty Boy Willy" because that thing actually flew worse than the Me 210/310/410 and was just about as worthless. Of course the Elbonian Air Farce will make it, their principle heavy interceptor to replace the BV 141.

 

[Count of Crisco]

The poorly written article describes it as an "area defense interceptor" as first designed.



It had strange pitch inputs and it was kind of nose heavy in landings and takeoffs. What fascinates me is that Major Seversky in his book "Victory Through Airpower" published in 1941 describes a "bomber destroyer" with this flying garbage example as what he means by the term. Bob Woods must have been as insane as "Pretty Boy Willy" because that thing actually flew worse than the Me 210/310/410 and was just about as worthless. Of course the Elbonian Air Farce will make it, their principle heavy interceptor to replace the BV 141.

This video explores the plane in a little better detail.

Bell Aircuda

 

[ric350]

You are always correcting with right rudder and your left leg gets tired.

Apparently it was only tricky at landing approach. At speed it was easily trimmed. The BV237 was the proposed ground attack version.

ric350

 

[McPherson]

Apparently it was only tricky at landing approach. At speed it was easily trimmed. The BV237 was the proposed ground attack version.

ric350

Not in yaw. Only in pitch.

The BV237 fascinated Hitler via asymmetry (diseased mind fascinated by the oddity of the planform without understanding WHY unbalanced forces are not a good idea in a four influence environment.), but saner minds spricht; "Nein, nein, Das ist ein Frankenstein!"

and countermanded the Berlin Maniac. One of the few "good" LW decisions of WWII.

 

[Blue cat]

The obvious alterative is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_187

View attachment 604381

Maybe the designers wanted to clear the arc of vision / fire for the rear gunner ?

 

[tomo pauk]

I's go for more of slightly updated Hs 123s (1000+- HP engine, either another pair of MGs or two MG FFs, a bit more protction from small arms fire) for starters. Once Fw 190 is in testing phase, have Henschel manufacture it under licence.
For a dedicated tank-buster, Ju 87B/D with 2x30mm cannons + some more protection, then move on 2x 37mm.

 

[McPherson]

Maybe the designers wanted to clear the arc of vision / fire for the rear gunner ?

Then ask Ed Heinemann how to do it.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Do 335 hands down for a late war fighter-bomber/ground attack.
It could outrun a Hawker Tempest at low altitude, had internal bomb bays, and was very well armed with a 3cm MK 103 Motorkanone and two 2cm MG 151/20s.
Standard attack tactic is to dive down at enemy tanks from above and target the vulnerable top armor, then evade enemy fighters and flak with their excellent low altitude speed.
You can probably add three Panzerblitz rockets on each wing for extra killing power.

 

[McPherson]

Do 335 hands down for a late war fighter-bomber/ground attack.
It could outrun a Hawker Tempest at low altitude, had internal bomb bays, and was very well armed with a 3cm MK 103 Motorkanone and two 2cm MG 151/20s.
Standard attack tactic is to dive down at enemy tanks from above and target the vulnerable top armor, then evade enemy fighters and flak with their excellent low altitude speed.
You can probably add three Panzerblitz rockets on each wing for extra killing power.

Unstable in yaw and could not turn worth a dram.

 

[groundhogday666]

There is a very simple way of screwing the -129. The French don't handle some thousands of G&R 14N engines to power it. They were just powerful enough for the job - yet did not put a burden on the German industry... the perfect theft ! In passing, this would also screw the Me-323 powered glider.